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Death Of The Assault Pilots...


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#21 Moira

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 09:37 AM

Challenge accepted ! =)

Ill toss a serious [LURM] like assault fiesta online and see how things are.... =) ill post first experiences and so on and so on.

First impressions:
- Dear God Atlas's need some upgrades no matter what spec / play style (tank,support,long range) I selected and no matter how carefully I played I got swarmed by heavies / meds and got taken out faster than I imagined.

- Took out my HGN-2C-B and instantly made score almost 7 times better than on the Atlas's.. Yeah I took seriously heavy load on ATM's and ran as idiot on the first line to tank/soak initial bash that was heading towards ous... finished games on HGN-2C-B just barely breathing like under 20% HP's.

* more to come

Edited by Moira, 23 November 2017 - 10:49 AM.


#22 xe N on

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 11:53 AM

Assaults are in a good place. There are just some models that sucks as in all weight classes. Mostly (e.g. the Atlas) because they are too much crippled by it's mixed hardpoints combined with it's low location.

I just don't play assaults because it's too boring to win with a MAD-IIC every time Posted Image

Much more fun and challenge playing a Cougar ...

Edited by xe N on, 23 November 2017 - 12:02 PM.


#23 Sjorpha

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 12:13 PM

Absolutely not, many assaults are super strong and in my experience most matches have several on each team. As a weight class they are fine, what can be discussed is which of them are too weak/strong and need adjustments, just like any other weight class.

Lights are weak as a class, even the best of them are weak compared to good mechs in the heavier classes. This is a problem, not a huge problem though.

Clan tech dominance is a problem in all the weight classes as well.

#24 Rayden Wolf

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 12:19 PM

Assaults arent fine. Some of thrm are fine, mostly in the 85-90t bracket.
But above that weight they are way to sluggish even if you waste some tonage for a MASC. 80 toners lack the firepower.
Cant remember the last time i have seen a 80t assault except Mr. Gargles.
Oh, i saw an Awesome last weekend.

Edited by Rayden Wolf, 23 November 2017 - 12:21 PM.


#25 A Really Old Clan Dude

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 12:35 PM

View PostBlueStrat, on 22 November 2017 - 03:50 PM, said:

It was already bad enough in solo-QP PUG for assaults with lack of team coverage for fatties and LMG-light-mech spam. Now you really have to have a masochistic streak to play assaults in solo-QP, especially during events. Even in solo-QP Charlie Lance has steadily been averaging downward in having actual assault 'mechs in it rather than heavies and maybe one 80-tonner or trial assault piloted by a new player.


The madcat mk II are still really good mechs. I still have great success with them.

Right now Im trying the HMN-PK , 4 srm 6 streaks and three mediums. I hang around near the fatties and wait for the lights or targets of opportunity. A single 4 * SRM 6 streak hit is enough to cripple a light. I got a PB locust last night as it ran past and one-shot it.

PS: those dam assassins though seem to survive everything. I hit 1 with three full salvos and it still had a decent wireframe left.

#26 Dark Wooki33 IIC

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 12:44 PM

Posted Image
Earnest assault mech before the fight.

#27 Sjorpha

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 12:48 PM

View PostRayden Wolf, on 23 November 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

Assaults arent fine. Some of thrm are fine, mostly in the 85-90t bracket.
But above that weight they are way to sluggish even if you waste some tonage for a MASC. 80 toners lack the firepower.
Cant remember the last time i have seen a 80t assault except Mr. Gargles.
Oh, i saw an Awesome last weekend.


For 80 tonners Gargoyle, Victor (especially new loyalty variant) and Warhawk are good and played quite a lot.

Above 90 tons you have Dire Wolf, Kodiak, Supernova, Annihilator, Cyclops all being great and commonly seen. And King Crabs aren't bad either.

So I don't see the evidence that assaults in any specific tonnage range are bad, seems like there is good and bad mechs for each tonnage all the way up to 100.

#28 FupDup

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 12:52 PM

View PostSjorpha, on 23 November 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:

For 80 tonners Gargoyle, Victor (especially new loyalty variant) and Warhawk are good and played quite a lot.

Warhawk is 85 tons. :P

#29 BlueStrat

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 01:12 PM

View PostNightbird, on 22 November 2017 - 06:38 PM, said:

Assaults outperform all other mech weight classes

https://mwomercs.com...and-suggestion/


The data used does not separate CW/FW from solo-PUG.

CW/FW stats will naturally skew the numbers upwards as they have an actual team to support them, unlike in solo-PUG where assaults are almost always on their own and usually abandoned and left to die by solo-PUG teams who race ahead and then wonder why their assaults died so quick and didn't support *them*, LOL!.

#30 Funky Bacon

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 01:15 PM

View PostRayden Wolf, on 23 November 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

Cant remember the last time i have seen a 80t assault except Mr. Gargles.
Oh, i saw an Awesome last weekend.


I play Awesomes all the time. I have over 500 games in the 8Q alone and around 730 in all variants combined. :D

#31 R Valentine

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 01:15 PM

"Assaults are fine... as long as they're the MADIIC or the Mad Cat Mk.II!"

IS assaults are garbage. Horrible hit boxes, low mounts, mixed hardpoints, non-existent twisting ability, useless quirks. Annihilators are OK because of the absurd armor quirks, but PGI is already in the process of reducing those down to Atlas level. Assaults are not fine. There's a very select few that are amazing, but that doesn't mean all other assaults should be relegated to the waste bin because clanners always get nice things. Even the KGC armor buffs didn't have any effect on the the KGC's viability. A few extra people tried it out and PGI sold a hero mech. Oobitie ooo. Nothing actually changed.

#32 Insanity09

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 01:16 PM

I could certainly support assaults getting better % increases in the mobility web. It would certainly help counter the changes from engine de-coupling.

There is even precedent for adjusting the numbers, based on the weight mods in the survival tree.

#33 Rayden Wolf

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 01:23 PM

View PostSjorpha, on 23 November 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:


For 80 tonners Gargoyle, Victor (especially new loyalty variant) and Warhawk are good and played quite a lot.

Above 90 tons you have Dire Wolf, Kodiak, Supernova, Annihilator, Cyclops all being great and commonly seen. And King Crabs aren't bad either.

So I don't see the evidence that assaults in any specific tonnage range are bad, seems like there is good and bad mechs for each tonnage all the way up to 100.

Well, that was my expierience. I have piloted assault for a good amount of time and as my main "class".
But atm i is a pain for me. All my KDKs are sluggish and there is nothing i can do. Even 40t for an engine and 4t extra for a MASC could not make them nimble again. All you get is speed but no mobility. Exes the same + lack of free tonage because of fixed equipment(same for the WHK btw).
You listed 6 mechs that are ok, i allready told you what i think about the Kodiaks. Dires are slow as hell, more a turret than a Mech(but thats ok for its firepower).
Anis and Cyclopses are often seen(notice that the Cyclops is a 90-tonner) same for the Supernova. King Crabs are meh at best. But whats with Banshees, Awsome, Zeus even Battlemasters are rare these days. Atlas, Highlander? All gone or more or less "freeloot".

#34 Troa Barton

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 02:25 PM

View Postadamts01, on 22 November 2017 - 06:41 PM, said:

But 90% of the time pushes don't happen till the match has already been decided. You'd be better off in a medium that could trade and deal damage throughout the match. Whack-a-mech is the be all end all tactic.

I would disagree, I've had several matches where the game started as a push or had several throughout the game.
However I'm the kind of lunatic that will push in an LRM boat if it would be advantageous.
A push is always dynamic there are several prerequisites that need to happen before one happens.

From most to least common: (not a complete list)
* An enemy gives ground, this is what we commonly refer to as nascaring it's a push that goes nowhere. Usually causes more problems than advantages. However in following examples it can be very effective so long as you don't give the enemy the same advantage you took by cutting off their reinforcements. Never go full Nascar.
* The enemy team is split, if half of their team is chasing a squirrel a decisive push mops up the other half.
* A combination of the first two where the enemy team leaves their assaults behind, this splits up their team and you can take advantage of it this can happen several times throughout a match.
* A high value target is killed from range, a LRM boat on an open map gets taken down or their Annihilator / Assault gets taken out. When this happens there is a huge power vacuum where a heavy or a medium suddenly becomes the gatekeeper as everyone else runs away from the flank, this is a prime time to push.
* The enemy makes a tactical error, one person over extends, an enemy push is started without a follow up, or the enemy goes out into the open when this happens the whole team responds creating a numbers advantage that leads into a snowball.
* A light causes chaos in their backline, this is a small moment to take advantage of and requires a suicidal light to pull off. However hitting the enemy in the back while they are paying attention to the light can quickly snowball a match and requires perfect timing.
* The enemy over commits to a single target be it your LRM boat, sniper or light out on the flank, when they over commit you can take advantage of it by taking down the people that stayed behind effectively trading one mech for three.
* The enemy is pinned down, this happens when you gain an advantageous position before your opponent or through the use of LRMs or sniper fire. A balled up immovable enemy is suspect to air strikes and being surrounded, a push on one side leads the rest into a killing field.
* Your assault is about to die and has nowhere to go, this is a desperation push and can go either way as it can lead your team into over exposing or create momentum that breaks their front line.
* An assault becomes tip of the spear this doesn't happen often because usually a team will not follow an assault into an enemy team or the assault just wont do it. This is because of how fragile assaults are but every now and then you get an assault with a wild hare up it's coolant shoot. This can happen when your team is in a bad spot and nothing short of a desperation push will get you out of it. These are the things that turn games around or just accelerate the inevitable. This is a dangerous gamble as it can throw a game just as easily as it can save one.
* An opportunity for a counter push presents itself. This happens when the enemy assault becomes tip of the spear, goes in first and gets his face blown off leaving the rest of the team out of position. Doesn't happen too often as usually people will run from a push (or their assault won't become tip of the spear) but when your team stands their ground you can turn a push from the enemy into your invitation to push back. This is why it's a dangerous gamble to let your assault go in first where they might miss a smaller target your assault is going to get hit. If you lose 100 tones before it can effectively contribute more than being a medium's meatshield you can throw a game.
* Lastly a push that everyone commits to at the same time, this is so rare that you almost never see it but it is always a thing of beauty. When everyone snipers, boats, brawlers, lights and the lot all push together. This always causes the enemy team to scatter creating the range for the snipers and boats. The caveat is that you don't have a long wind up it needs to come on as a sudden unexpected rush of aggression. When this happens the entire match is a push.

A game is a series of small pushes that are repulsed until one gains ground hence your take on it only being at the last 10% of the game. Pushes often are decisive, when one does finally get a foothold its usually over fast. That ignores the first 90% where the game ebbs and flows with small pushes where each team probes the defenses of the other. This is also why group ques often dominate pug matches as when an advantage is seen it's usually taken with a faster reaction time by a higher percentage of the team than a group of pugs can effectively coordinate.

The whack a mech playstyle is by far the most safe but the matches that end decisively and quickly are the ones that take the advantage those ranged mechs make and forge it into a push.

The problem is that the game is much more weighted towards offense than defense. This is due to a lack of armor where back in the day a push could be stopped by an Atlas and a team confident enough in that Atlas to stay with him. Now mobility is king and when that push happens sorry about your luck Atlas we're outta here cause you ain't lasting long. Sometimes albeit rarely you get a team that will back up their assaults and it can go the other way. Depends largely on what kind of assaults they have as anything less than an Annihilator or King Crab it's time to run.

Ranged damage has been slowly ramped up over the years first with the introduction of the clans, new chassis boating ranged weapons, increased team size, MRMs, heavy weaponry, ect. The slow assaults have not gained armor adequate enough to deal with all that creep in ranged power. Brawling and by extension staying power in assaults when faced with a push is at an all time low. Its all about range, aggression, mobility, and poking. Assaults right now have enough armor for a push where the enemy scatters but not enough for when they need to hold their ground. This is in my estimation why matches are such one sided stomps, there isn't enough armor for counter play too much offense and not enough defense.

#35 Khobai

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 02:45 PM

lies. always go full nascar. and always nascar to the right. theres no such thing as too fast. only too slow.

if you lose because you nascared its always because some slowass assaults in the back died. its their fault for not going faster and expecting everyone else to slow down for their benefit. gotta go fast.

if you play something like a direwolf better get used to being on your own and fighting like 1v4 lol and then having your team blame you for losing because you were too slow.

Edited by Khobai, 23 November 2017 - 02:50 PM.


#36 Insanity09

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 02:57 PM

So, the creep of weapon power and range has killed both assaults and light mechs?
(assaults because they can't get into or out of position fast enough, lights because they get slaughtered too readily)

It's too bad there was no way to prevent that from happening, or rather, it's too bad the trend wasn't seen early enough to head it off.

Power creep on weapons could have been prevented by slowing down fire rates, primarily. That mostly would have helped assaults, not so much lights However, lights would have been helped slightly by such a change, because increasing ttk without dependence on increasing armor/structure would have meant that the firepower most lights could bring to bear would still be viable.

At this stage, I'm not sure the game could take such changes and survive, playerbase-wise. Shrug.

#37 davoodoo

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 03:01 PM

View PostInsanity09, on 23 November 2017 - 02:57 PM, said:

So, the creep of weapon power and range has killed both assaults and light mechs?
(assaults because they can't get into or out of position fast enough, lights because they get slaughtered too readily)

Not really, assault mechs even slow and clumsy could still work as weapons platforms, thats why mc mk2 is so popular but that role is basically reduced to gauss vomit now and even that is popular only because it can carry 6 ermeds on top of gauss.

Edited by davoodoo, 23 November 2017 - 03:04 PM.


#38 Vonbach

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 04:13 PM

The torso twist nerf killed the Assault. Theres no point of taking a brawler that cant brawl.
Top it off with most IS mechs having crappy hardpoints and mounts and your left with fat snipers
and LRM mechs.

#39 Trissila

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 06:47 PM

Between the tonnage inefficiency of upper-end engines (required to make Assaults move at any kind of decent speed in an environment where speed is very important), and Ghost Heat artificially limiting the amount of firepower an Assault can bring to bear, there's very little reason to play one when a Heavy will hit just as hard while being considerably faster and more agile.

The speed is a huge factor. Even if ghost heat wasn't a thing, I would never drop in an Annihilator because 54 KPH with a 400-class engine is completely unacceptable. The thing cannot adapt to changing battlefield conditions. It's a 100-ton paperweight.

#40 CFC Conky

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 06:59 PM

Assault mech pilots die because Charlie lance doesn't stay together. Charlie should stay with 150m of each other in order to focus down enemies faster and defend themselves against smaller mechs.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky





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