It's me again. With another one of my questions about Battletech. What made Battlemechs so salvageable? Or was it because of Mechwarriors intentionally tried to avoid inflicting the kind of damage that would make salvage impossible?
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What Made Battlemechs So Salvageable?
Started by MechaBattler, Dec 17 2017 09:52 PM
31 replies to this topic
#2
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Posted 17 December 2017 - 10:19 PM
There was probably nothing inherently salvageable about the design of the Battlemech. They were however built to be big and tough. During the height of the Star League I am sure they would have been as disposable as any other tool of war.
However with the fall of the Star League, their general toughness and ability to be salvaged and repaired would have made them highly desirable and powerful commodities. As factories and warehouses were destroyed and knowledge was lost the toughest and most common mechs would have remained functional as some would be scrapped for parts to keep others running. The first to go would have been the rare and exotic mechs and weapons. Then other vehicles would be scrapped for parts. Many heavy trucks and support vehicles were stripped of there fusion engines to keep mechs going in battle. Salvage became important because there was limited or no stocks of new mechs or spares to keep old ones going. (think about what the Cuban's have done with all their old American Cars over the years). Salvage was a necessity not an invention.
As mechs became rarer due to losses in battle, they became significantly more valuable in battle. Particularly if you had one and the other guy didn't. By the turn of the Millennium in 3000. Planets could be held or even taken by as little as a lance of light mechs (sometimes even 1), simply because there was nothing else to stand up to them.
Source books tell us that over 100,000 Archer Battlemechs alone were manufactured over the 2-300 years of the Star League. By the early 3000's it is unlikely that there were 100,000 Mechs in total spread across the 3000+ planets of the Inner Sphere. If you had something big and stompy with lots of guns, you were a very powerful person (and rich too most likely) and you would do almost anything to keep it that way.
However with the fall of the Star League, their general toughness and ability to be salvaged and repaired would have made them highly desirable and powerful commodities. As factories and warehouses were destroyed and knowledge was lost the toughest and most common mechs would have remained functional as some would be scrapped for parts to keep others running. The first to go would have been the rare and exotic mechs and weapons. Then other vehicles would be scrapped for parts. Many heavy trucks and support vehicles were stripped of there fusion engines to keep mechs going in battle. Salvage became important because there was limited or no stocks of new mechs or spares to keep old ones going. (think about what the Cuban's have done with all their old American Cars over the years). Salvage was a necessity not an invention.
As mechs became rarer due to losses in battle, they became significantly more valuable in battle. Particularly if you had one and the other guy didn't. By the turn of the Millennium in 3000. Planets could be held or even taken by as little as a lance of light mechs (sometimes even 1), simply because there was nothing else to stand up to them.
Source books tell us that over 100,000 Archer Battlemechs alone were manufactured over the 2-300 years of the Star League. By the early 3000's it is unlikely that there were 100,000 Mechs in total spread across the 3000+ planets of the Inner Sphere. If you had something big and stompy with lots of guns, you were a very powerful person (and rich too most likely) and you would do almost anything to keep it that way.
#3
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Posted 18 December 2017 - 06:42 AM
if you think about that 4 guys can actually "hold a planet" LOL, that kind is the funny part of the BT's plotonium.
#4
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Posted 18 December 2017 - 11:34 AM
Were vehicles with non-fusion engines really so outclassed by 4 light mechs?
#5
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Posted 18 December 2017 - 12:20 PM
in the lore yes, in the tt not so much. in the mwda click system mechs were great again by better mobility
#6
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Posted 18 December 2017 - 01:37 PM
I feel like clever use of mech scaled traps and ambush tactics with dug-in concealed vehicles or even field guns would be a good counter. Do they have field gun versions of ACs? Or even laser weapons?
#7
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Posted 18 December 2017 - 06:40 PM
MWO has taken one tiny part of a much bigger universe and focused on it. Mechs are the ultimate symbols of military power, they were not the only ones.
I said earlier that a lance of light mechs could take and hold a planet. This would happen for several reasons:
-nobody would have anything that could stand up to them.
-the mechs would almost always be backup to ground troops who would enforce order.
-the population mostly sick of constant war likely wouldn't care and would just follow the new regime whilst going about their lives
-Ares conventions designed to prevent the worst atrocities of war limited combat to relatively small engagements. Capitulating and coming back with a larger force was preferable to having a city or town wiped out.
The BT universe is has a lot of "might is right" to it. The side with the biggest stick, often won, even without using it.
I said earlier that a lance of light mechs could take and hold a planet. This would happen for several reasons:
-nobody would have anything that could stand up to them.
-the mechs would almost always be backup to ground troops who would enforce order.
-the population mostly sick of constant war likely wouldn't care and would just follow the new regime whilst going about their lives
-Ares conventions designed to prevent the worst atrocities of war limited combat to relatively small engagements. Capitulating and coming back with a larger force was preferable to having a city or town wiped out.
The BT universe is has a lot of "might is right" to it. The side with the biggest stick, often won, even without using it.
#8
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Posted 19 December 2017 - 08:50 AM
If you read on into the details, you find out that there are lots of infantry and armor regiments for holding ground, patrolling, etc. 'Mechs are the shock troops, individually the most powerful, and most versatile. They are the equivalent of the modern MBT combined with a F/A jet. As long as we're dealing with flat or open terrain, I'll take a pair of Shrek PPC carriers (3 ER PPCs each) over a Warhawk.
Clan Hell's Horses supposedly uses lots of armor/combined arms, but we never see them. Combined arms is also a lot harder to write.
For a slightly more realistic take on how to handle mechs, I highly recommend Cannonshop's stories set on Kowloon. A poor but populous planet with a slightly nutty leader uses cheaper methods - traps, helicopters with A/C 2s & armor piercing rounds aiming at cockpits, cheap tanks en masse, and artillery. Lots and lots of tube artillery.
http://bg.battletech...p?topic=32743.0
The "Clover Spear" AU (ongoing) similarly features lots of death metal raining from the sky:
http://bg.battletech...p?topic=49460.0
Clan Hell's Horses supposedly uses lots of armor/combined arms, but we never see them. Combined arms is also a lot harder to write.
For a slightly more realistic take on how to handle mechs, I highly recommend Cannonshop's stories set on Kowloon. A poor but populous planet with a slightly nutty leader uses cheaper methods - traps, helicopters with A/C 2s & armor piercing rounds aiming at cockpits, cheap tanks en masse, and artillery. Lots and lots of tube artillery.
http://bg.battletech...p?topic=32743.0
The "Clover Spear" AU (ongoing) similarly features lots of death metal raining from the sky:
http://bg.battletech...p?topic=49460.0
#9
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Posted 19 December 2017 - 10:17 AM
Definitely going to check that out Jonathan. Sounds like my kind of crazy xD
I guess like anything else with mechs they have to marginalize conventionals to some degree. Which is understandable. The whole theme is mech combat. But I love creative use of conventional weapons in settings with mechs.
I guess like anything else with mechs they have to marginalize conventionals to some degree. Which is understandable. The whole theme is mech combat. But I love creative use of conventional weapons in settings with mechs.
#10
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Posted 19 December 2017 - 07:48 PM
MechaBattler, on 17 December 2017 - 09:52 PM, said:
It's me again. With another one of my questions about Battletech. What made Battlemechs so salvageable? Or was it because of Mechwarriors intentionally tried to avoid inflicting the kind of damage that would make salvage impossible?
They're a bit more compartmentalized than most armored vehicles, as taking off a limb or (sometimes) even a side torso doesn't irrepairably compromise function. In fact, unless the CT suffers reduction to zero via ammo explosion or similar effect (like AoE weaponry), you can generally rebuild it from that. It's literally the core everything else is hung on.
#11
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Posted 20 December 2017 - 09:20 AM
MechaBattler, on 17 December 2017 - 09:52 PM, said:
It's me again. With another one of my questions about Battletech. What made Battlemechs so salvageable? Or was it because of Mechwarriors intentionally tried to avoid inflicting the kind of damage that would make salvage impossible?
MechWarrior Slide so far as answered the best. Battletech salvage was by far a necessity of the time era in lore and is something that in no way is reflected in MWO. Its not salvage from Prizes of War, rare was it to capture a fully functional and intact prize. Battletech salvage is literally the removal of armor and components in the desperate on-going effort to keep your equipment in better working condition than your enemy.
If you go back and read some of the early BattleTech books, where the BattleTech lore really molded and took life, you will see plenty examples of patchwork repairs having been done and mechs returning to battle not fully operation because something was damaged that couldn't be repaired by salvage.
I've been reading the original books now non-stop for the last few weeks. Start with 'Decision at Thunder Rift' and do your best to go sequentially from there. Most of the original Battletech book series is now available digitally on Amazon.
#12
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Posted 21 December 2017 - 04:19 AM
Also, a little food for thought (especially when talking about the rarity and importance of having a Battlemech)....
The MechWarrior video games always implied that battles were always fought until only one force was standing and they were salvaging the battlefield for mechs/equipment. This is probably true in some cases, such as major conflicts between Houses or against the Clans.
When it comes to a lot of the Inner Sphere (and Periphery) though, I get the impression that battles were often decided without serious loss just for the fact that MechWarriors would rather negotiate terms for withdrawal rather than losing their Battlemechs in battle since they were so valued and hard to replace. Essentially, if things look bad, open comms and negotiate a withdrawal. This seems especially true in the older Eras like 3025.
After all, Battlemechs were not only rare, but often the people who owned them, had them handed down to them from their parents. They were essentially big walking/shooting family heirlooms being handed down from generation to generation. They were a source of a family's pride, power, and influence so inheriting one was a REALLY big deal. As you would imagine, this made them very important to their pilots, and they would do anything to keep them.
So I always imagined that at least in the early days (again like 3025), battlefield salvage of a whole downed mech would happen, but would be a bit rare and more likely salvage might be more in line with blown-off weapons and severed mech limbs (arms and legs) left behind by the losing force as part of a negotiated withdrawal.
Maybe once the Helm Memory Core was discovered and especially after the ramp-up of mech construction post Clan invasion things changed a bit and they became a bit more disposable, but I'd imagine most of the time post Star League, MechWarriors were careful not to lose their mech in battle. Doing so might have resulted in the downfall of their family's influence and power within the Inner Sphere/Periphery
The MechWarrior video games always implied that battles were always fought until only one force was standing and they were salvaging the battlefield for mechs/equipment. This is probably true in some cases, such as major conflicts between Houses or against the Clans.
When it comes to a lot of the Inner Sphere (and Periphery) though, I get the impression that battles were often decided without serious loss just for the fact that MechWarriors would rather negotiate terms for withdrawal rather than losing their Battlemechs in battle since they were so valued and hard to replace. Essentially, if things look bad, open comms and negotiate a withdrawal. This seems especially true in the older Eras like 3025.
After all, Battlemechs were not only rare, but often the people who owned them, had them handed down to them from their parents. They were essentially big walking/shooting family heirlooms being handed down from generation to generation. They were a source of a family's pride, power, and influence so inheriting one was a REALLY big deal. As you would imagine, this made them very important to their pilots, and they would do anything to keep them.
So I always imagined that at least in the early days (again like 3025), battlefield salvage of a whole downed mech would happen, but would be a bit rare and more likely salvage might be more in line with blown-off weapons and severed mech limbs (arms and legs) left behind by the losing force as part of a negotiated withdrawal.
Maybe once the Helm Memory Core was discovered and especially after the ramp-up of mech construction post Clan invasion things changed a bit and they became a bit more disposable, but I'd imagine most of the time post Star League, MechWarriors were careful not to lose their mech in battle. Doing so might have resulted in the downfall of their family's influence and power within the Inner Sphere/Periphery
Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 21 December 2017 - 04:21 AM.
#13
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Posted 21 December 2017 - 11:11 AM
Tanks were often captured or salvaged in this way in some of earth's historical and more desperate engagements. For example, it was not entirely uncommon for German troops on the Eastern front to take control of Russian equipment and use it. Highly coveted Russian tech on the Eastern front of WWII included the Russian PPSH submachine gun and the T-34 medium tank. There were many cases of Germans replenishing their German built gear with Russian guns and tanks and pressing them into service. If you think about it, the same principles that made tanks often salvagable would apply to battlemechs as well. If a tank took a hit to the treads and its treads became broken, the tank was immobilized. You just went from being a mobile killing machine to being a stationary target. Many crews would bail out and abandon their vehicle if their tank took such a crippling blow because they felt like if they did not they would be killed. But from an engineering standpoint, you slap a new tread on that tank it's as good as new, and now it's yours.
Let's apply the same logic to a 'mech for a moment. Let's say for example, you are a mechwarrior in an engagement. Your 'mech has an ejection system, so bailing out to save your own skin is easy. Your 'mech suddenly takes a blow to the leg that cripples your leg actuator. You are now immobile and highly vulnerable. It might be a good idea to just punch out right now. So you do. Now on the ground, whoever wins the salvage rights gets a 'mech that has a bum leg actuator, but once that's replaced, it's good as new.
Let's apply the same logic to a 'mech for a moment. Let's say for example, you are a mechwarrior in an engagement. Your 'mech has an ejection system, so bailing out to save your own skin is easy. Your 'mech suddenly takes a blow to the leg that cripples your leg actuator. You are now immobile and highly vulnerable. It might be a good idea to just punch out right now. So you do. Now on the ground, whoever wins the salvage rights gets a 'mech that has a bum leg actuator, but once that's replaced, it's good as new.
Edited by Mole, 21 December 2017 - 11:11 AM.
#14
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Posted 21 December 2017 - 12:31 PM
Mole, on 21 December 2017 - 11:11 AM, said:
Let's apply the same logic to a 'mech for a moment. Let's say for example, you are a mechwarrior in an engagement. Your 'mech has an ejection system, so bailing out to save your own skin is easy. Your 'mech suddenly takes a blow to the leg that cripples your leg actuator. You are now immobile and highly vulnerable. It might be a good idea to just punch out right now. So you do. Now on the ground, whoever wins the salvage rights gets a 'mech that has a bum leg actuator, but once that's replaced, it's good as new.
Your historical assessment of tank salvage has merit. Unfortunately, in the Battletech universe, death is often preferred over leaving your mech over something as trivial as a bad leg actuator. Re-read (or read for the 1st time, MeiSooHaityu's post then go read ‘Price of Glory’ and then give me your appraisal of a MechWarrior who thinks it’s a good idea to get out of his mech due to a failed leg actuator on the battlefield.
Mechs are not easy to replace items that can be picked up at the magical MWO MechMart.
The concept of Battletech salvage is mostly lore based. Are you going to give up a 200+ year old 10 story war machine build from technology that has been lost to most of humanity that few ever actually understand without threat of immediate death? No, a MechWarrior would suffer death over becoming a "Dispossessed". If you or others are not familiar with what a Dispossessed is and what that means to a MechWarrior, let me nutshell it. Salvage isn't taken to simply to keep the machines fighting men. Salvage is taken to keep the men fighting in the machines.
Being a Dispossessed is the greatest dishonor any Mechwarrior could suffer. My mech better be a limping husk of myomer, fire, hate and about to “Stackpole” before I punch out.
Edited by Darrious Quinn, 21 December 2017 - 12:31 PM.
#15
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Posted 21 December 2017 - 03:31 PM
Darrious Quinn, on 21 December 2017 - 12:31 PM, said:
Your historical assessment of tank salvage has merit. Unfortunately, in the Battletech universe, death is often preferred over leaving your mech over something as trivial as a bad leg actuator. Re-read (or read for the 1st time, MeiSooHaityu's post then go read ‘Price of Glory’ and then give me your appraisal of a MechWarrior who thinks it’s a good idea to get out of his mech due to a failed leg actuator on the battlefield.
Mechs are not easy to replace items that can be picked up at the magical MWO MechMart.
The concept of Battletech salvage is mostly lore based. Are you going to give up a 200+ year old 10 story war machine build from technology that has been lost to most of humanity that few ever actually understand without threat of immediate death? No, a MechWarrior would suffer death over becoming a "Dispossessed". If you or others are not familiar with what a Dispossessed is and what that means to a MechWarrior, let me nutshell it. Salvage isn't taken to simply to keep the machines fighting men. Salvage is taken to keep the men fighting in the machines.
Being a Dispossessed is the greatest dishonor any Mechwarrior could suffer. My mech better be a limping husk of myomer, fire, hate and about to “Stackpole” before I punch out.
Mechs are not easy to replace items that can be picked up at the magical MWO MechMart.
The concept of Battletech salvage is mostly lore based. Are you going to give up a 200+ year old 10 story war machine build from technology that has been lost to most of humanity that few ever actually understand without threat of immediate death? No, a MechWarrior would suffer death over becoming a "Dispossessed". If you or others are not familiar with what a Dispossessed is and what that means to a MechWarrior, let me nutshell it. Salvage isn't taken to simply to keep the machines fighting men. Salvage is taken to keep the men fighting in the machines.
Being a Dispossessed is the greatest dishonor any Mechwarrior could suffer. My mech better be a limping husk of myomer, fire, hate and about to “Stackpole” before I punch out.
Hm. I didn't realize that owning a 'mech was looked upon as a sort of "knighthood". If that's the case, then yes, mechwarriors would be loathe to abandon their 'mechs and many may prefer death. Still though, it is entirely possible for the pilot of a vehicle to get killed and have the vehicle still be salvageable.
Something else we do need to take into account as far as why 'mechs never became extinct though... correct me if I'm wrong, but the factories that manufactured 'mechs were run entirely by AI and 'mechs could still be manufactured throughout the succession wars so long as the factory remained in-tact, yes?
Edited by Mole, 21 December 2017 - 03:33 PM.
#16
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Posted 26 December 2017 - 10:37 AM
Back to the original qestion: personally believe Myomer 'muscles' mean the mech actually has less moving parts than more traditional machines. More expensive, yes but allot more simple in many other ways.
Real world answer: It's sci-fi, don't over think it. It's up there with Replicators and Laser Swords.
Real world answer: It's sci-fi, don't over think it. It's up there with Replicators and Laser Swords.
#17
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Posted 27 December 2017 - 08:32 PM
Mole, on 21 December 2017 - 03:31 PM, said:
Hm. I didn't realize that owning a 'mech was looked upon as a sort of "knighthood". If that's the case, then yes, mechwarriors would be loathe to abandon their 'mechs and many may prefer death. Still though, it is entirely possible for the pilot of a vehicle to get killed and have the vehicle still be salvageable.
Something else we do need to take into account as far as why 'mechs never became extinct though... correct me if I'm wrong, but the factories that manufactured 'mechs were run entirely by AI and 'mechs could still be manufactured throughout the succession wars so long as the factory remained in-tact, yes?
Something else we do need to take into account as far as why 'mechs never became extinct though... correct me if I'm wrong, but the factories that manufactured 'mechs were run entirely by AI and 'mechs could still be manufactured throughout the succession wars so long as the factory remained in-tact, yes?
That was some of the factories, but not necessarily all.
Panther factories, for example, were notorious for overworking their staff.
I think the automated factory you're thinking of was a particular Stinger line, but most mechs were still being manufactured with a mix of manpower and automation. However, because mechs aren't mere assemblages of lego blocks or kit cars that the customization system would have you imagine, it's a whole lot of R&D that goes into making battlemechs, with most of the people who could develop new ones totally not being picked off one by one by comstar.
There were a number of new designs being made, for example the Hatchetman was developed in 3023 by Buckaroo Banzai... excuse me. Dr. B Banzai. There was the Merlin in the Outworlds Alliance in 3010, and the Capellans developed new technologies in secret, like the Raven with it's revolutionary EW Equipment, and the Cataphract - though it was mostly pieced together from Marauder bits. There were also frankenmechs (Mostly invented to encourage kitbashing and customization when the number of mechs could be counted on fingers and toes), but those would have needed incredible resources to both build and keep up and running.
Of course, by 3028 when the helm core is discovered and copies are given to each faction, they included all the information to remember how to make what they were making, and even helped them slowly rediscover technologies lost since the star league (of course, the main focus went into the military rather than the civilian fields) like Pulse Lasers and Arrow IV missiles. With the appearance of clantech, even more equipment that the Star League hadn't developed started to appear in the mid 3050s, and by the late 3050s, there were new technologies unique to the inner sphere being developed, like MRMs and Light Gauss Rifles.
In the end though, Mechs were rare in the 3rd succession war, held almost exclusively by minor nobles of some kind. Even Mercenaries were often runaways or disgraced nobles of some kind - or at least sons and daughters of rich tycoons. Mechs can be salvaged so long as some of the center torso remains, and even if the CT is completely blown out, the other components can be salvaged to rebuild or repair other mechs. In the case of mismatched parts, you get Frankenmechs, but those are really quite rare. It's only when an ammo explosion happens that you lose the entire mech. Of course, the main reason why these mechs survive for so long is that most 'mechwarriors retreat off the field before they can be completely destroyed, so that they can get their mechs patched up to fight another day.
It's a little harder to believe with mechs like the Orion, Cyclops, and Dragon, though. Those things are so heavy with ammo slots they're like walking fireworks displays.
Edited by ice trey, 27 December 2017 - 10:05 PM.
#18
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Posted 01 January 2018 - 07:26 AM
Lily from animove, on 18 December 2017 - 06:42 AM, said:
if you think about that 4 guys can actually "hold a planet" LOL, that kind is the funny part of the BT's plotonium.
About 4 guys holding a planet...
(TL;DR version: It takes hundreds of mechs and thousands of vehicles to take over a planet, but the cartoon had to shrink the scope significantly.)
1st Somerset Strikers' companion book dev notes:
"Many concessions were made in order to keep the story as simple to follow as possible. Such included that only a small team of five or so mechs being able to fight for control of a planet instead of the hundreds in the novels." Paraphrased.
1st Somerset Strikers "Designer Notes" Page 94.
"The Greatest challenge we faced was how to present all the depth and dynamism of the Battletech Universe without confusing the uninitiated viewer."
"First and foremost we needed to keep the story's focus to manageable proportions, which meant keeping the number of characters, 'Mechs, and political entities small."
"Second the good guys and bad guys needed to be strongly established and clearly differentiated. The hundreds of fictional characters, nations, and political factions of the Battletech Universe are always painted in shades of gray, just as in real life." Goes on to talk about how BT novels are written from different points of view with different prejudices, motivations and views of the other party, how fictional narrators are prone to distorting the reality with their own emotions with an example being exaggerating the size of an Atlas to over 20 meters tall when it isn't even 14 meters. (Let that sink in, most of MWO's mechs are 14+ meters...)
"We needed to visually differentiate the Jade Falcons from the Strikers and so we exaggerated the differences the differences in looks between the Clans and their Inner Sphere counterparts." Clean, crisp uniforms for the Jade Falcon and strange hairstyles to emphasize how 'alien' they seem to the IS. Dirty, well worn to almost ragged clothes with no set uniforms for the Strikers.
"One of the last big choices was the number of mechs to include in the show. For production reasons we could only use a limited number." Certain exceptions had to be made because of including certain designs due to being cool. "For example TRO 3050 says the Mauler is exclusive to Draconis Combine but in the animation everyone and their brother are operating one."
(It was later done so that the Daboku was gradually spread into Steiner territory as a way of explaining that, since the word Mauler was uncommon in the show and the main guy using one and actually calls it a Mauler got his from the captured Kurita dropship.)
Various characters in the anime are actually notable names in BT novels, Franklin Sakamoto is in Heir to the Dragon, Ciro Rameriz is in Lethal Heritage, which also includes Victor Steiner-Davion's forced evacuation of from the battle against the Clans. A base featured in it is also in the BT game module titled Rhonda's Irregulars (Camelot Command is the name of the base).
Here we go: TL;DR
"-the story simple and manageable for the series. Planets are fought over by ten or fewer 'Mechs rather than the hundreds (and thousands of combined arms) used in the fiction. Somerset is (made to be) one of the first planets invaded rather than falling in a second wave of Jade Falcon attacks. Instead of remaining in Jade Falcon hands, it is "liberated" in episode 13 though we plan to do something about that in the second series."
Shame that second series never came to be. Harmony Gold stepped in soon after....
Edited by Koniving, 04 January 2018 - 06:04 AM.
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Posted 01 January 2018 - 07:35 AM
This big thing is about the topic of mechs and salvage. More specifically... Why did they have to salvage?
From Mechwarrior 1st edition..
Note this is copy/pasted from a scanned PDF file. There are errors in the image to text registration. I tried to get them all but there may still be some.
THE SUCCESSION WARS
(2785-Present)
Kerensky's dramatic exodus removed
the last real obstacle to civil war. In December
2786, Minoru Kurita declared himself First Lord of the
Star League, and the other four Council Lords quickly followed
suit. Within months, war had engulfed the entire Inner Sphere.
The First Succession War lasted from 2787 to 2821, a
conflagration of unparalleled brutality. The warring Lords cast
aside the Ares Conventions, smashing cities, destroying vital
industrial facilities, and butchering hundreds of millions of
civilians. Few worlds escaped unscathed.and all were affected
by the complete disruption of trade and commerce. By 2815,
the warring States had lost most of their FTL shipbuilding
capacity. Furthermore, the intense concentration of economic
resources on military production had forced a major curtailment
of production of consumer goods, and thus a decline in trade.
This loss of trade proved particularly disastrous for those
worlds relying on advanced-technology water purifiers. Without
proper maintenance or spare parts, many of these facilities
began to fail, forcing the colonists to abandon the worlds or to
return to ice-ship technologies. By the war's end in 2821, water rich
planets had become as strategically valuable as they had
been 400 years before.
Note: For conquest game mode, "WATER" would be a more realistic resource to fight over than Germanium. Those planets would also have had exceptionally high value as logistical targets in a good, well thought out faction warfare.
The peace of 2821 was uneasy, resulting more from
exhaustion than any true reconciliation. Though no party could
claim to have made much progress toward its goal of dominion,
too many atrocities had occurred to allow any sort of lasting
settlement. From 2821 through 2827, the five surviving ruling
Houses rebuilt as much of their military might as possible,
concentrating their surviving scientists and engineers on
those few worlds whose industrial capacity remained intact.
Between 2828 and 2830, tensions along the borders of each
rival house erupted into open warfare once more.
The Second Succession War lasted from approximately
2830 to 2863, and was just as deadly, destructive, and indecisive
as its predecessor. Hundreds of millions more died in
countless battles across the Inner Sphere, though only a few
dozen worlds ultimately changed hands. As the war destroyed
more industrial facilities and killed off more scientists and engineers,
some types of specialized knowledge and technology
began to disappear entirely. By the end of the Second
Succession War, the Successor States' overall level of technological
knowledge had sunk to a level barely above that of
Earth in the early 21st century. It was no longer easy to build
advanced computers, large fusion power plants, and starships.
Instead, the Warlords of the Successor States began to
cannibalize existing equipment for the spare parts to keep their
current war machines in working order.
After a second brief respite, the Third Succession War
erupted in 2866. It began when advance forces of the Draconis
Combine invaded the coreward portion of the Lyran Commonwealth,
and then spread across the Inner Sphere. In the years
that followed, war became such a fact of everyday life that
contemporary chronicles refer to the period simply as ''the
Succession Wars". Nonetheless, later campaigns did not
match the violence of the first two wars.
At first. the decrease in destruction and bloodshed
appeared to be more a function of each army's reduced
resources than a philosophical change in tactics. As time
passed, however, and the exigencies of a scavenger economy
took hold, each of the Houses realized it could ill afford further
losses of vital resources. Gradually, an informal set of rules of
war evolved, similar to the Ares Conventions. 'Mech units and
armies still fought over possession of operational factories,
but neither side attempted to harm the facility itself. (The
losers simply told themselves they would win the planet back in
the next war.) Major 'Mech battles, especially between
mercenary units, were often fought in stages, with both sides
allowing enemy Techs to enter the battlefield during periods of
truce to attend to damaged 'Machs. Other 'Mech units, again
especially mercenaries, revived the old tradition of surrendering
to a superior force, and paying a ransom to obtain their
off-world release. Most important, everyone recognized the
sanctity of any House's JumpShips, and strictly obeyed the
prohibition placed on attacking such craft {without which the
war for supremacy could not be waged at all).
(NOTE!: First. The Aries convention was dropped as soon as Kerensky left the system after the end of the Amaris Coup. Nearly 400 years before the current timeline. So people using that to explain why things are the way they are like missiles just being duds at less than 180 meters is ********. There are lore reasons for the 180 meter minimum ACCURATE range. The Aries Convention isn't one of them.)
(NOTE!: Second. As stated here, the Invasion gamemode as depicted in MWO is complete and utter ********. That turret would be aiming at the incoming dropships. It is also an impractical for doing so. Instead multiple smaller turrets armed with capital ship class autocannons or lasers would make a lot more sense. As would dropships being shot out of the sky shortly after delivering a payload, and being shot at while the dropships try to come down. Also the dropships would not deliver so frequently, or anywhere near so close... that's begging to lose a precious resource that costs more than three dozen mechs. So dropships delivering mechs to that point at all is another load of bull, they would be dropped in the middle of nowhere and the mechs would have to fight their way to their destinations, with reinforcements joining after 'running' to the battlesite from whatever safe spot they managed to touch down in.)
A second outgrowth of the destructiveness of the Succession
Wars was the rise of feudalism throughout the Inner
Sphere. The central governments of the ruling Houses no
longer possessed either the administrative machinery or
absolute military resources to maintain centralized control over
their territories. Instead, each Warlord ruled a hierarchy of
planetary nobles {often drawn from the leadership of his most
elite 'Mech units), awarding them full authority over worlds in
exchange for the pledged service of their BattleMechs.
Indeed, the years of conflict wreaked havoc beyond the
borders of the Successor States, and created the phenomenon
known as the Bandit Kings of the Periphery. As the Wars
raged back and forth along the frontier, dozens of 'Mech units
- often composed of either the fragments of defeated units, or
mutinous mercenaries - fled into the vastness of the Periphery.
Several of these units emerged again, often after a
number of years, as "kings" of one or more small worlds seized
by force of arms. By the end of the 30th Century, there were
more than 60 known small kingdoms and principalities ringing
the Inner Sphere, creating the ever-present threat of raids and
piracy to the frontier worlds of each House.
From Mechwarrior 1st edition..
Note this is copy/pasted from a scanned PDF file. There are errors in the image to text registration. I tried to get them all but there may still be some.
THE SUCCESSION WARS
(2785-Present)
Kerensky's dramatic exodus removed
the last real obstacle to civil war. In December
2786, Minoru Kurita declared himself First Lord of the
Star League, and the other four Council Lords quickly followed
suit. Within months, war had engulfed the entire Inner Sphere.
The First Succession War lasted from 2787 to 2821, a
conflagration of unparalleled brutality. The warring Lords cast
aside the Ares Conventions, smashing cities, destroying vital
industrial facilities, and butchering hundreds of millions of
civilians. Few worlds escaped unscathed.and all were affected
by the complete disruption of trade and commerce. By 2815,
the warring States had lost most of their FTL shipbuilding
capacity. Furthermore, the intense concentration of economic
resources on military production had forced a major curtailment
of production of consumer goods, and thus a decline in trade.
This loss of trade proved particularly disastrous for those
worlds relying on advanced-technology water purifiers. Without
proper maintenance or spare parts, many of these facilities
began to fail, forcing the colonists to abandon the worlds or to
return to ice-ship technologies. By the war's end in 2821, water rich
planets had become as strategically valuable as they had
been 400 years before.
Note: For conquest game mode, "WATER" would be a more realistic resource to fight over than Germanium. Those planets would also have had exceptionally high value as logistical targets in a good, well thought out faction warfare.
The peace of 2821 was uneasy, resulting more from
exhaustion than any true reconciliation. Though no party could
claim to have made much progress toward its goal of dominion,
too many atrocities had occurred to allow any sort of lasting
settlement. From 2821 through 2827, the five surviving ruling
Houses rebuilt as much of their military might as possible,
concentrating their surviving scientists and engineers on
those few worlds whose industrial capacity remained intact.
Between 2828 and 2830, tensions along the borders of each
rival house erupted into open warfare once more.
The Second Succession War lasted from approximately
2830 to 2863, and was just as deadly, destructive, and indecisive
as its predecessor. Hundreds of millions more died in
countless battles across the Inner Sphere, though only a few
dozen worlds ultimately changed hands. As the war destroyed
more industrial facilities and killed off more scientists and engineers,
some types of specialized knowledge and technology
began to disappear entirely. By the end of the Second
Succession War, the Successor States' overall level of technological
knowledge had sunk to a level barely above that of
Earth in the early 21st century. It was no longer easy to build
advanced computers, large fusion power plants, and starships.
Instead, the Warlords of the Successor States began to
cannibalize existing equipment for the spare parts to keep their
current war machines in working order.
After a second brief respite, the Third Succession War
erupted in 2866. It began when advance forces of the Draconis
Combine invaded the coreward portion of the Lyran Commonwealth,
and then spread across the Inner Sphere. In the years
that followed, war became such a fact of everyday life that
contemporary chronicles refer to the period simply as ''the
Succession Wars". Nonetheless, later campaigns did not
match the violence of the first two wars.
At first. the decrease in destruction and bloodshed
appeared to be more a function of each army's reduced
resources than a philosophical change in tactics. As time
passed, however, and the exigencies of a scavenger economy
took hold, each of the Houses realized it could ill afford further
losses of vital resources. Gradually, an informal set of rules of
war evolved, similar to the Ares Conventions. 'Mech units and
armies still fought over possession of operational factories,
but neither side attempted to harm the facility itself. (The
losers simply told themselves they would win the planet back in
the next war.) Major 'Mech battles, especially between
mercenary units, were often fought in stages, with both sides
allowing enemy Techs to enter the battlefield during periods of
truce to attend to damaged 'Machs. Other 'Mech units, again
especially mercenaries, revived the old tradition of surrendering
to a superior force, and paying a ransom to obtain their
off-world release. Most important, everyone recognized the
sanctity of any House's JumpShips, and strictly obeyed the
prohibition placed on attacking such craft {without which the
war for supremacy could not be waged at all).
(NOTE!: First. The Aries convention was dropped as soon as Kerensky left the system after the end of the Amaris Coup. Nearly 400 years before the current timeline. So people using that to explain why things are the way they are like missiles just being duds at less than 180 meters is ********. There are lore reasons for the 180 meter minimum ACCURATE range. The Aries Convention isn't one of them.)
(NOTE!: Second. As stated here, the Invasion gamemode as depicted in MWO is complete and utter ********. That turret would be aiming at the incoming dropships. It is also an impractical for doing so. Instead multiple smaller turrets armed with capital ship class autocannons or lasers would make a lot more sense. As would dropships being shot out of the sky shortly after delivering a payload, and being shot at while the dropships try to come down. Also the dropships would not deliver so frequently, or anywhere near so close... that's begging to lose a precious resource that costs more than three dozen mechs. So dropships delivering mechs to that point at all is another load of bull, they would be dropped in the middle of nowhere and the mechs would have to fight their way to their destinations, with reinforcements joining after 'running' to the battlesite from whatever safe spot they managed to touch down in.)
A second outgrowth of the destructiveness of the Succession
Wars was the rise of feudalism throughout the Inner
Sphere. The central governments of the ruling Houses no
longer possessed either the administrative machinery or
absolute military resources to maintain centralized control over
their territories. Instead, each Warlord ruled a hierarchy of
planetary nobles {often drawn from the leadership of his most
elite 'Mech units), awarding them full authority over worlds in
exchange for the pledged service of their BattleMechs.
Indeed, the years of conflict wreaked havoc beyond the
borders of the Successor States, and created the phenomenon
known as the Bandit Kings of the Periphery. As the Wars
raged back and forth along the frontier, dozens of 'Mech units
- often composed of either the fragments of defeated units, or
mutinous mercenaries - fled into the vastness of the Periphery.
Several of these units emerged again, often after a
number of years, as "kings" of one or more small worlds seized
by force of arms. By the end of the 30th Century, there were
more than 60 known small kingdoms and principalities ringing
the Inner Sphere, creating the ever-present threat of raids and
piracy to the frontier worlds of each House.
Edited by Koniving, 04 January 2018 - 06:10 AM.
#20
-
-
- The Guide
- 23,384 posts
Welcoming Committee
Posted 01 January 2018 - 08:59 AM
So nothing made them so salvageable. They just HAD to do it. Not much choice. Either you salvaged them, or you didn't have them. Its like picking up a gun. Either you did it and now you have it, or you didn't and they had it to shoot you with.
(though "The First Battlemech" does depict that it was able to take hits from remote controlled medium tanks and the shots just bounced off. It is worth noting they were using Light and Medium Rifles. And that anything similar to a 21st century tank projectile would have -3 damage against Mech armor, meaning all of PGI's ACs are ********; BT's ACs are based on anti-aircraft guns; rapid fire spammery of up to 100 shots (actually 200 if you consider TacOps rules) per 10 seconds with "HEAP" or high explosive armor piercing rounds that try to wedge into the armor and then explode, as otherwise they wouldn't be able to do anything to the armor.)
But salvaging them was necessary.
Another entry states:
To give an idea... An excerpt from some help I got from Shar Wolf in condensing and cataloging important info on mechs...
VALKYRIE
All were in the hands of Davion at the start of the Succession Wars
130 produced a year (TRO3025)
Production tech no longer understood (TRO3025)
Replaces Wasp and Stinger in crack combat regiments.
So, from this we can surmise that around 130 Valkyries are produced a year, with approximately the same destroyed beyond repair per year, give or take. Until the 3030s, mechs are in serious decline. After the 3030s, things begin to pick up and in 3050 mechs are gaining in number, until the dark ages where they hit a massive decline and numbers dwindle at staggering paces leaving many to resort to using civilian machines.
(Exactly how or why is beyond me, at that point WizKidz took over, and "Exaggerations" of mechs over 14.4 meters became 'fact', with one Atlas being 25 meters with a KITCHEN and a CREW OF ******* 3 COOKS in its stomach! WHAT THE ****!? I dropped that **** like a bomb and ran after that.)
(though "The First Battlemech" does depict that it was able to take hits from remote controlled medium tanks and the shots just bounced off. It is worth noting they were using Light and Medium Rifles. And that anything similar to a 21st century tank projectile would have -3 damage against Mech armor, meaning all of PGI's ACs are ********; BT's ACs are based on anti-aircraft guns; rapid fire spammery of up to 100 shots (actually 200 if you consider TacOps rules) per 10 seconds with "HEAP" or high explosive armor piercing rounds that try to wedge into the armor and then explode, as otherwise they wouldn't be able to do anything to the armor.)
But salvaging them was necessary.
Another entry states:
To give an idea... An excerpt from some help I got from Shar Wolf in condensing and cataloging important info on mechs...
VALKYRIE
All were in the hands of Davion at the start of the Succession Wars
130 produced a year (TRO3025)
Production tech no longer understood (TRO3025)
Replaces Wasp and Stinger in crack combat regiments.
So, from this we can surmise that around 130 Valkyries are produced a year, with approximately the same destroyed beyond repair per year, give or take. Until the 3030s, mechs are in serious decline. After the 3030s, things begin to pick up and in 3050 mechs are gaining in number, until the dark ages where they hit a massive decline and numbers dwindle at staggering paces leaving many to resort to using civilian machines.
(Exactly how or why is beyond me, at that point WizKidz took over, and "Exaggerations" of mechs over 14.4 meters became 'fact', with one Atlas being 25 meters with a KITCHEN and a CREW OF ******* 3 COOKS in its stomach! WHAT THE ****!? I dropped that **** like a bomb and ran after that.)
Edited by Koniving, 04 January 2018 - 06:14 AM.
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