19 replies to this topic

[Lightfoot]

So I take a couple Gauss Rifles, some lasers, or a Gauss Rifle and many lasers, or 2x Heavy PPC's (which are bugged still) or 2xUAC10's, you get it, MechWarrior's traditional elite weapons, and I do about 200-300 damage and getting a KMD or solo kill is rare.

But then I take 4xMachine Guns, 2x medium pulse lasers, some SRMs and gee whiz, I do 990 damage and get 4 Solo Kills.

It comes down to too many nerfs of the big weapons I guess, and PPCs are bugged, unless you are actually supposed to be getting 200 damage from 40-50 PPC hits? (2xPPCs x 20-25 hits). If this is what is supposed to be happening, well fine, I'll take the MG's and SRMs and medium lasers. That's fine, whatever works is most fun usually. But isn't that missing the point of Mechlab and MechWarrior and the entire arsenal of available weapons? If all weapons worked right, wouldn't that be the best gameplay?

[Muujig612]

There are too many factors at play to take things for granted. I can only say that competitive players are not boating SRMs and medium pulses on their big mechs.

[FupDup]

Lightfoot, on 04 December 2017 - 03:57 PM, said:

...MechWarrior's traditional elite weapons...

This snippet in particular concerns me. Are you expecting the meta to be ruled by the same weapons as the older games that made little to no attempt at balancing?

[Khobai]

Quote

There are too many factors at play to take things for granted. I can only say that competitive players are not boating SRMs and medium pulses on their big mechs.

thats largely due to weapon ranges. a lot of weapons in MWO have way longer range than they should have.

thats why MWO has a stupid mid to long range poke meta

while in tabletop, even with clan tech, most fighting usually takes place under 450m. because thats where you get the best chance of hitting with all your weapons. You generally want to avoid the +4 long range penalty at all costs.

I strongly believe there should be a 30%-50% damage penalty on weapons fired beyond optimum range if you dont have a sensor lock. And I believe assaults and heavies (with a couple exceptions like the cyclops) should have shorter range sensors than lights and mediums.

That would help curb the long range meta, help make sensor locks actually matter, and strengthen the role of lights/mediums and make heavies/assaults depend on them more.

Edited by Khobai, 04 December 2017 - 06:38 PM.

[Muujig612]

Khobai, on 04 December 2017 - 06:33 PM, said:

I strongly believe there should be a 30%-50% damage penalty on weapons fired beyond optimum range if you dont have a sensor lock. And I believe assaults and heavies (with a couple exceptions like the cyclops) should have shorter range sensors than lights and mediums.

That would help curb the long range meta, help make sensor locks actually matter, and strengthen the role of lights/mediums and make heavies/assaults depend on them more.

Careful, UnofficialOperator might label you as newbie panderer.

[UnofficialOperator]

Muujig612, on 04 December 2017 - 07:02 PM, said:

Careful, UnofficialOperator might label you as newbie panderer.

Funny.

Anyway this mystery is easily solved.

Long range weapons from team mates stripe away all the armor.

OP goes sneaky and rushes in with high crit seekers, pin point damage and insane alphas for the last bits of armor left. At close range, OP finally is able to aim with the same Tier 3 Eyeball he was using previously on long range weapons.

Its a range and gameplay thing. Not weapons.

[Lightfoot]

UnofficialOperator, on 04 December 2017 - 07:51 PM, said:

Funny.

Anyway this mystery is easily solved.

Long range weapons from team mates stripe away all the armor.

OP goes sneaky and rushes in with high crit seekers, pin point damage and insane alphas for the last bits of armor left. At close range, OP finally is able to aim with the same Tier 3 Eyeball he was using previously on long range weapons.

Its a range and gameplay thing. Not weapons.

If that's true, how did I get 4 solo kills in one match? In an un-Skilled mech I might add.

Not saying MechWarrior 2-4 did everything right, but most weapons were good. MWO has added so many nerfs to the big weapons that when you load up a bunch of trash weapons that are un-nerfed the results are, well, unexpectedly good. Go try it. Just pile in all the tiny junky weapons that you can fit on your mech and try to fire them all at once or as makes the most sense. A junk-boat, more or less. Your mileage may vary depending on how good your mech's chassis is.

Edited by Lightfoot, 05 December 2017 - 02:57 PM.

[Damnedtroll]

Lightfoot, on 04 December 2017 - 03:57 PM, said:

So I take a couple Gauss Rifles, some lasers, or a Gauss Rifle and many lasers, or 2x Heavy PPC's (which are bugged still) or 2xUAC10's, you get it, MechWarrior's traditional elite weapons, and I do about 200-300 damage and getting a KMD or solo kill is rare.

But then I take 4xMachine Guns, 2x medium pulse lasers, some SRMs and gee whiz, I do 990 damage and get 4 Solo Kills.

It comes down to too many nerfs of the big weapons I guess, and PPCs are bugged, unless you are actually supposed to be getting 200 damage from 40-50 PPC hits? (2xPPCs x 20-25 hits). If this is what is supposed to be happening, well fine, I'll take the MG's and SRMs and medium lasers. That's fine, whatever works is most fun usually. But isn't that missing the point of Mechlab and MechWarrior and the entire arsenal of available weapons? If all weapons worked right, wouldn't that be the best gameplay?

Sometimes some weapons load work better with your way of fighting than other. It depend of the pilots, Some people are amazing at making ppc hit and gauss hit at 1000m. I'm a total green with gauss rifle... i manage some good game but other are horrible.

Some people say lbx are crap, i do quite constant good scoring with twin lbx build, a lot better than with a twin uac5 build on the same battlemech. Nonsense ? No, you are better with these weapons that work with the way you fight.

Edited by Damnedtroll, 05 December 2017 - 03:00 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

Solo kills, btw are killshot + most damage.

I've "solo killed" plenty of times simply because I pumped so much damage into the target that it basically gets gibbed, even with multiple hits from other players clearly obvious on it's paperdoll.

SRM/MG/pulse at close range can generate immense amounts of damage. Honestly, that may just be where you're good. I just had a friend start MWO, and he's sitting there putting up 4-digit damage games with killstreaks a mile wide. With ER PPCs.

[Bombast]

It's generally a bad idea to make meta claims from a handful of matches. Particularly in what I assume is Tier 3 Solo queue.

Anyway, the damage discrepancy likely comes from three main things: Your play style, the small match pool you're sourcing, and the feast/famine aspect that brawling weapons generally have.

Also everyone knows the new meta is MRMs.

Brain Cancer, on 05 December 2017 - 03:03 PM, said:

I've "solo killed" plenty of times simply because I pumped so much damage into the target that it basically gets gibbed, even with multiple hits from other players clearly obvious on it's paperdoll.

You don't even have to do that much damage to get a Solo Kill. I get them all the time in my Boomhammer when I kill something with a single alpha that's been pummeled to 30% by everyone else, simply because my 40 damage beats out the 30 damage each of the other 11 people did.

Edited by Bombast, 05 December 2017 - 03:08 PM.

[Lightfoot]

Damnedtroll, on 05 December 2017 - 02:57 PM, said:

Sometimes some weapons load work better with your way of fighting than other. It depend of the pilots, Some people are amazing at making ppc hit and gauss hit at 1000m. I'm a total green with gauss rifle... i manage some good game but other are horrible.

Some people say lbx are crap, i do quite constant good scoring with twin lbx build, a lot better than with a twin uac5 build. Nonsense ? No, you are better with these weapons that work with the way you fight.

I am a long time Mech pilot. I can do it all decently well despite the tier 3 rating. I am actually a long range specialist if anything. I don't miss at long range. Tracking is easier the farther out you are anyway. The weapons are good until they get nerfed. PPCs used to be reliable, deadly, for instance. Same with Gauss Rifles at first. Then they slowed PPCs to 850 meters per second and the no-damage bug came back and was never fixed. Anyway, tiny, junky, weapon builds, the new Meta?

[Y E O N N E]

PPCs haven't been 850 m/s for years. They travel at 1200 m/s, with the ERPPC being 1900 m/s and the cERPPC being 1500 m/s.

I'm averaging 505 damage in my Warhammer 6R. Do you want to know what its loadout is? Twin LGauss and 6x ERML. It's not small, it's not light, it's not fast, it's not short-ranged.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 05 December 2017 - 03:24 PM.

[Sjorpha]

Lightfoot, on 05 December 2017 - 03:11 PM, said:

I am a long time Mech pilot. I can do it all decently well despite the tier 3 rating. I am actually a long range specialist if anything. I don't miss at long range. Tracking is easier the farther out you are anyway. The weapons are good until they get nerfed. PPCs used to be reliable, deadly, for instance. Same with Gauss Rifles at first. Then they slowed PPCs to 850 meters per second and the no-damage bug came back and was never fixed. Anyway, tiny, junky, weapon builds, the new Meta?

There are some problems with these claims. First of all, tiny close combat weapons are not the dominant meta, like not at all. The current meta is primarily mid to long range lasers and gauss.

Second you talk about not doing damage with weapons that evidently many other do lots of damage in, PPCs, gauss and autocannons work tremendously well for most of the good players, and yet you still claim to be good at using them. That doesn't add up, do these alleged no-damage bugs only apply to you?

Third the PSR system has a significant upwards bias, you simply cannot play "decently well" for a long time and also stay in tier 3. It doesn't happen. Even what I would call bad players move towards tier 1. So unless you are deliberately playing extremely bad on purpose often enough to tank your rating (that is against the CoC for your information) the only other explanation is that you aren't as good at the game as you claim to be.

Edited by Sjorpha, 05 December 2017 - 03:39 PM.

[OrmsbyGore]

Khobai, on 04 December 2017 - 06:33 PM, said:

I strongly believe there should be a 30%-50% damage penalty on weapons fired beyond optimum range if you dont have a sensor lock. And I believe assaults and heavies (with a couple exceptions like the cyclops) should have shorter range sensors than lights and mediums.

I would rather see tonnage and space used to get better sensor equipment, so anyone who wanted to could take a more advanced sensor package at the expense of payload. Of course, no one would do that in a 12 on 12 death match, but i feel like it would be a good idea for a more.....complete mechwarrior game

[Xmith]

Lightfoot, on 05 December 2017 - 02:49 PM, said:

If that's true, how did I get 4 solo kills in one match? In an un-Skilled mech I might add.

Not saying MechWarrior 2-4 did everything right, but most weapons were good. MWO has added so many nerfs to the big weapons that when you load up a bunch of trash weapons that are un-nerfed the results are, well, unexpectedly good. Go try it. Just pile in all the tiny junky weapons that you can fit on your mech and try to fire them all at once or as makes the most sense. A junk-boat, more or less. Your mileage may vary depending on how good your mech's chassis is.

Sh_t happens sometimes. Some may want to label your account of the match an isolated incident. The trick is to continue to put up scores like that on a regular basis.

Edited by Xmith, 05 December 2017 - 03:59 PM.

[Gristle Missile]

Damage numbers can get inflated by a lot of factors
usually its because of crits or component destructions - MGs, SRMs, LBX, etc can do that

They really shouldn't give you damage like you blew off an arm when you get a side torso.
I can get 1000 damage games where I just crit and destroyed components like crazy - but I might actually do better in a 600 damage game where I had more pinpoint kills to the CT and taking the mech out

Edited by Gristle Missile, 05 December 2017 - 04:07 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

I would rather see tonnage and space used to get better sensor equipment, so anyone who wanted to could take a more advanced sensor package at the expense of payload. Of course, no one would do that in a 12 on 12 death match, but i feel like it would be a good idea for a more.....complete mechwarrior game

Almost like someone would mount a Beagle probe, targeting computer, or command console. Or something.

[Lightfoot]

Sjorpha, on 05 December 2017 - 03:38 PM, said:

There are some problems with these claims. First of all, tiny close combat weapons are not the dominant meta, like not at all. The current meta is primarily mid to long range lasers and gauss.

Second you talk about not doing damage with weapons that evidently many other do lots of damage in, PPCs, gauss and autocannons work tremendously well for most of the good players, and yet you still claim to be good at using them. That doesn't add up, do these alleged no-damage bugs only apply to you?

Third the PSR system has a significant upwards bias, you simply cannot play "decently well" for a long time and also stay in tier 3. It doesn't happen. Even what I would call bad players move towards tier 1. So unless you are deliberately playing extremely bad on purpose often enough to tank your rating (that is against the CoC for your information) the only other explanation is that you aren't as good at the game as you claim to be.

You can stay at tier 3 with mechs like the Thanatos. I was about to hit T-2 before the Thanatos was delivered. And PPCs are bugged. Bugged like they were in Closed Beta, but not as often. Some PPC hits just don't register. It's a Bug and an old one. I used to do 600-700 damage with PPCs before they were slowed to 850 meters per second. Somehow the bug returned then. It's not my connection, 87 ms lag usually on ADSL, and the other weapons are not bugged, just nerfed.

PSR is misunderstood, it actively works to match you against equals so you should always be in Tier 3, right? I would likely be Tier 1 if I only took top mechs, but I always experiment because I want a new experience. *see Thanatos. So you don't advance with the rest of the player base doing that. The top players determine where Tier 1 is, it is not a set number, but a growing number. Number of wins/kills grows, so if you don't keep up you stay Tier 3. See how that works? You don't automatically reach T-1 ever, but you rarely drop a full tier. However, there is always the Thanatos for those wishing to drop a tier.

But I am just a casual player now. I used to be the XO and CO of a MW4 Merc Unit, but no time at the moment so I just drop for a few games each week, right now on my Alt who got the Thanny's.

Anyway, go ahead and try it. I was messing around with it on various mechs before I hit the 'perfect storm' mech for tiny junky weapons, but it was always working reasonably well. Blame the Thanatos for not supporting logical builds, because the more weird and mismatched junk builds I used the better the results. Then I tried the same thing on some truly good mechs, just a junkpile of mismatched smallish weapons. MGs, MRM10, SRM4, Medium Pulse, ER Small, etc. kind of "pray and spray" weapon groups. It's all for fun.

[Y E O N N E]

I always experiment. Mole always experiments. TheB33f always experiments . Even Proton experiments. All of us are Tier 1 despite significant variation in actual ability.

And no, the Tier 1 bracket does not adjust to represent the top performing X% of players. It is a fixed threshold.

if player.PSRCount>= tier1LowerBound
{
player.PSRName == 'Tier 1';
}

[mogs01gt]

Lightfoot, on 04 December 2017 - 03:57 PM, said:

So I take a couple Gauss Rifles, some lasers, or a Gauss Rifle and many lasers, or 2x Heavy PPC's (which are bugged still) or 2xUAC10's, you get it, MechWarrior's traditional elite weapons, and I do about 200-300 damage and getting a KMD or solo kill is rare.

But then I take 4xMachine Guns, 2x medium pulse lasers, some SRMs and gee whiz, I do 990 damage and get 4 Solo Kills.

It comes down to too many nerfs of the big weapons I guess, and PPCs are bugged, unless you are actually supposed to be getting 200 damage from 40-50 PPC hits? (2xPPCs x 20-25 hits). If this is what is supposed to be happening, well fine, I'll take the MG's and SRMs and medium lasers. That's fine, whatever works is most fun usually. But isn't that missing the point of Mechlab and MechWarrior and the entire arsenal of available weapons? If all weapons worked right, wouldn't that be the best gameplay?

I was running a hppc and SRMs in a medium the other day. It felt like I did tons of work yet my damage output didnt match the amount of work I put in. Switched to lasers, bam 4 kills and less work..WTF

Edited by mogs01gt, 07 December 2017 - 10:51 AM.