42 replies to this topic

[EurakaLi]

There are some strange thing are ballistics weapon in MWO..
when every other weapon have light to heavy weapon type you can choose
ballistics was jumping from MG to AC 2

example energy small laser 0.5 ton med 1 ton plus small 1 ton 2 ton med plus also flamer (not counting tag here),then we have large laser and plaus large and 6-7 ton ppc
this make adjusting build around laser hardpoint relative easy

LRM and SRM have less choices here but overall still give a lot of option whether you have 20 ton or 5 ton left to use

when we look at ballistics hard point....
0.25/0.5 ton MG and the next upgrade jump to AC2... 5-6 ton ,
and start from ac 5 /ult etc the crit slot usage is very large and we hve not putting any ammo in them....a single ballistics always need 1 ton and 1 more crit slot for mini performance,so an ac2 cost you 2 slot and 7 ton in IS case...

the easy build path I think was one of the reason lead to laser meta ,coz all you need to do is switching between pulse laser with standard laser and you have an 1 ton extra for armor or HS,[/color]vice versa.you could just switch to pulse laser when you have too much tonnage unused

I did look into the lore a bit there seem to have a bigger version of MG
it did make some sense to introduce some other MG with differ tonnage for filling up the ballistic hard point
Seriously,I did rather put an real life GAU-8 in it ,it was able to shoot over 4000 feet ,from wiki data.. when i play with the in game MG....it look like shooting an assault rifle(both the range and fire power).

TLDR: maybe putting a few variation of MG in the game will help out the meta a little

Edited by EurakaLi, 13 April 2016 - 10:12 PM.

[El Bandito]

MGs need to not suck first. Remove or at least reduce the CoF and there is less need for alternative MGs.

[Clownwarlord]

OK I would like to point out MGs are suppose to suck against mechs. MGs are and prominently used for anti-personnel, not for anti-armor.

Now as for dakka the ACs are not true ACs they don't really pump out rounds, and in many cases they seem and act more like simi-automatics which is depressing.

[John1352]

2 tons, 200-240 optimal, 400-480 max, 1.6-2 DPS with continuous fire, nil or negligible heat.

Boom, light and small medium mechs with mainly ballistic hardpoints will no longer need 40% quirks to be viable. (I.E. huggin, cicada 3C)

Edit: This is not based on TT, this is aimed at giving MWO a useful small ballistic. At 2 tons it will get heavy to boat them, especially considering you'll need ammo.

Edited by John1352, 13 April 2016 - 11:31 PM.

[Bohxim]

If I'm not wrong, MG are hitscan weapons. The COF and ballistics flying out of them are purely aesthetic and only serve to 'blind'' and annoy the target

[Fox With A Shotgun]

John1352, on 13 April 2016 - 09:47 PM, said:

2 tons, 200-240 optimal, 400-480 max, 1.6-2 DPS with continuous fire, nil or negligible heat.

Boom, light and small medium mechs with mainly ballistic hardpoints will no longer need 40% quirks to be viable. (I.E. huggin, cicada 3C)

And this only highlights the actual problem we have. Boating. Let's assume the HMG has 1.4 dps.

Sure, on a mech with only 2B slots? It's a good thing. 1.4 dps on them would only make it 2.8 dps.

I'll take a SHC-P with an extra ballistic RA. 7B slots. Now you have 9.8 dps with nearly no heat. Consider that a DWF with three UAC/10 is investing 36 tons + ammo, and can only dish out a sustained 9.16 dps.

Hardpoint inflation is the biggest devil in this issue, if anything. A modest 0.2 dps increase per weapon is too little for a mech which can only use one, but that's +1.4 dps on a mech that can use 7 of them. Imagine an increase of +1 damage on a SPL for a mech which has 14 hardpoints.

[627]

Bohxim, on 13 April 2016 - 09:57 PM, said:

If I'm not wrong, MG are hitscan weapons. The COF and ballistics flying out of them are purely aesthetic and only serve to 'blind'' and annoy the target

Hitscan, yes but with a (rather big) CoF. Just try in testing grounds, you light up the enemy like a christmas tree, hits everywhere.

[Y E O N N E]

clownwarlord, on 13 April 2016 - 09:45 PM, said:

Now as for dakka the ACs are not true ACs they don't really pump out rounds, and in many cases they seem and act more like simi-automatics which is depressing.

Does it continue to fire with the trigger depressed? Yes? Auto-cannon.

[DrxAbstract]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 13 April 2016 - 09:58 PM, said:

And this only highlights the actual problem we have. Boating. Let's assume the HMG has 1.4 dps.

Sure, on a mech with only 2B slots? It's a good thing. 1.4 dps on them would only make it 2.8 dps.

I'll take a SHC-P with an extra ballistic RA. 7B slots. Now you have 9.8 dps with nearly no heat. Consider that a DWF with three UAC/10 is investing 36 tons + ammo, and can only dish out a sustained 9.16 dps.

Hardpoint inflation is the biggest devil in this issue, if anything. A modest 0.2 dps increase per weapon is too little for a mech which can only use one, but that's +1.4 dps on a mech that can use 7 of them. Imagine an increase of +1 damage on a SPL for a mech which has 14 hardpoints.

HMGs weigh twice as much as the MG, so it's 7 (3.5 Clan) tons before adding ammo. It also has a shorter range than the MG, much shorter than the UAC10. But comparing 'Sustained DPS' to 'Maximum DPS' is where your argument really falls short; 3 UAC10s have 12 DPS without double-tap, deliver 30 damage instantly without requiring face time and can put out 60-90 damage in about 4 seconds. Also, if it's a 3 UAC10 DWF instead of 4 then you can fit 12 tons of ammo with a #2 TC and have 22 DHS which would make heat a nonissue altogether.

The sheer difference between Damage Per Hit and DPS is a huge factor to be considered and 9 DPS is below average for the popular Light and Medium builds, many of which have 10+ DPS with an alpha surpassing 30 DPH... But 9 DPS (Requiring an unprecedented 7 Ballistic Slots) with a relatively nonexistent DPH scares you? Your concerns are misplaced.

[wanderer]

clownwarlord, on 13 April 2016 - 09:45 PM, said:

OK I would like to point out MGs are suppose to suck against mechs. MGs are and prominently used for anti-personnel, not for anti-armor.

Now as for dakka the ACs are not true ACs they don't really pump out rounds, and in many cases they seem and act more like simi-automatics which is depressing.

Actually, they're just a light anti-mech weapon that happens to be very good vs. infantry.

In TT, machineguns are most commonly stacked up on 'Mechs in arena fighting, but MGs are literally the same damage as their own weight in SRM launchers, with less range but no heat- or given the TacOps rule for high RoF mode, can quite adequately shred armored targets at the cost of waste heat and ammo consumption (which honestly isn't an issue often in TT anyway).

Timewise, we're missing the "middle ground" weapons for ballistics- Rifles, mortars, and in a few game years, the light AC/2 and light AC/5. Given that MWO's doubled armor means the damage reduction for rifles is effectively halved per shot vs. armor and you actually have an interesting set of Periphery-tech weaponry that could be added to the game.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

DrxAbstract, on 13 April 2016 - 10:33 PM, said:

HMGs weigh twice as much as the MG, so it's 7 (3.5 Clan) tons before adding ammo. It also has a shorter range than the MG, much shorter than the UAC10. But comparing 'Sustained DPS' to 'Maximum DPS' is where your argument really falls short; 3 UAC10s have 12 DPS without double-tap, deliver 30 damage instantly without requiring face time and can put out 60-90 damage in about 4 seconds. Also, if it's a 3 UAC10 DWF instead of 4 then you can fit 12 tons of ammo with a #2 TC and have 22 DHS which would make heat a nonissue altogether.

The sheer difference between Damage Per Hit and DPS is a huge factor to be considered and 9 DPS is below average for the popular Light and Medium builds, many of which have 10+ DPS with an alpha surpassing 30 DPH... But 9 DPS (Requiring an unprecedented 7 Ballistic Slots) with a relatively nonexistent DPH scares you? Your concerns are misplaced.

You're missing the point that I'm trying to make with regards to the original post I quoted. He was suggesting a non-lore HMG with 200m optimal / 400m max, which stacks quite favourably against IS MPLs for range, with nonexistent heat. I wouldn't have a problem with the TT-accurate version with pitiful range, because that in itself is a huge tradeoff for heatless short-range non-burst DPS. But what he was suggesting was well and truly above and beyond balanced; MGs are hitscan regardless, and if you can keep them on like a heatless laser that does more DPS than a ML, it's pretty broken.

7 Ballistics hardpoints on a single mech actually exists, but it's more for a troll build than anything else: Death by 1000 paper cuts?.

Edited by Fox With A Shotgun, 13 April 2016 - 10:52 PM.

[EurakaLi]

John1352, on 13 April 2016 - 09:47 PM, said:

2 tons, 200-240 optimal, 400-480 max, 1.6-2 DPS with continuous fire, nil or negligible heat.

Boom, light and small medium mechs with mainly ballistic hardpoints will no longer need 40% quirks to be viable. (I.E. huggin, cicada 3C)

yeah that would be some good dps,but it should cost around 10-11 ton including a suffice amount of ammo(should about 1000 round per ton?)
8 ton of weapon and 2-3 ton of ammo for 6.4 dps don't sound too op,4 med pulse laser give 6.68 DPS with less slot and very lose face time so you can duck poke twist.where MG is to face your enemy the hole time. Yes laser generate heat,but it always the flaw of laser weapon that they generate heat much more then other weapon. one of the issue we have now is all weapons generate heat anyway why take something require ammo and not something ammo free but generate a bit more heat.
according to smurfy an ac 2 have same heat efficient as a med pulse laser require 12 heat sink to negate it .
(it not a perfect match as one can shoot longer another have hit scan)
ac 2 had a DPS of 2.78 and p laser 1.67 it was about 60% more dps.we can say that the ballistic ac2 was 60% more heat efficient then their laser weapon.
the draw back: ammo explosion ,travel time,need more slot for ammo which turn out less slot for heat sink,the lightest ac 2 was the same weight as c-erppc. the slot and weight issue get worst when you look at heavier ballistic weapon.
on the other hand energy weapon took very little space and you can hold much more heat sink then someone using ballistic.
it often turn our the mech using ballistic weapon have a far less max heat cap then someone use energy weapon.resulting in the strong and weakness of those weapon type not clearing matter that much.

btw if a Heavy MG really cost 2 tons I don't think those light will run very fast with 4 Heavy HG ,just did a bit on cicida 3c I was able to fit a XL 250 engine with 2.5 MG ammo and 8.2 ton left,I keep my erppc in it.(using endo and ferro).
top speed of 108 is not really scary...don't have huginn but i think it will move considerable slower without other sacrifice

[EurakaLi]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 13 April 2016 - 10:45 PM, said:

You're missing the point that I'm trying to make with regards to the original post I quoted. He was suggesting a non-lore HMG with 200m optimal / 400m max, which stacks quite favourably against IS MPLs for range, with nonexistent heat. I wouldn't have a problem with the TT-accurate version with pitiful range, because that in itself is a huge tradeoff for heatless short-range non-burst DPS. But what he was suggesting was well and truly above and beyond balanced; MGs are hitscan regardless, and if you can keep them on like a heatless laser that does more DPS than a ML, it's pretty broken.

7 Ballistics hardpoints on a single mech actually exists, but it's more for a troll build than anything else: Death by 1000 paper cuts?.

are your right about that coz I don't know the lore well ,
I was looking for a middle ground weapon in ballistics so we don't have to jump from 1 ton weapons to a 6 ton one....

like wanderer said something Periphery-tech weaponry(I dun know what it is ) seem have a better MG for a bit more weight which shorten the gap/middle ground in ballistics.

btw I really think the current MG should shoot a bit longer.... something like 150 opt and 300 max range will at least have some use to put a few ton on it,I rather just get more heat sink now if I got 3 ton left and 4 ballistic hard point.
it not really overpowered coz the damage drop off mean you still not gonna use it over 200 m.

[Clownwarlord]

Yeonne Greene, on 13 April 2016 - 10:08 PM, said:

Does it continue to fire with the trigger depressed? Yes? Auto-cannon.

Yes but at such a slow rate of fire that it seems more like a musket between round.

[DrxAbstract]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 13 April 2016 - 10:45 PM, said:

You're missing the point that I'm trying to make with regards to the original post I quoted. He was suggesting a non-lore HMG with 200m optimal / 400m max, which stacks quite favourably against IS MPLs for range, with nonexistent heat. I wouldn't have a problem with the TT-accurate version with pitiful range, because that in itself is a huge tradeoff for heatless short-range non-burst DPS. But what he was suggesting was well and truly above and beyond balanced; MGs are hitscan regardless, and if you can keep them on like a heatless laser that does more DPS than a ML, it's pretty broken.

7 Ballistics hardpoints on a single mech actually exists, but it's more for a troll build than anything else: Death by 1000 paper cuts?.

No I definitely got it. However you're comparing Energy to Ballistic, and shouldnt be. You're also putting a lot of emphasis on the "heatless" feature weighing, in my opinion, far more than it should as a consideration. 200m Range is still pitifully short given most engagements take place at 300m-500m and any Mechs closer than that are likely carrying the kind of firepower you really dont want to spend much time exposed to. The real concerns here are no interim Ballistic weapons and bringing Mechs that have Ballistic hardpoints up to par with those that have multiple Energy. Most Lights and Mediums in the game have one or the other while most Ballistic slots and Ballistic-oriented Mechs are often skipped in favor of more Energy-centric builds due almost entirely to the lack of interim Ballistic weapons. In order to make those builds and Mechs viable, there needs to be a viable alternative that can hold up against the short and mid-range Energy lineup.

An IS Heavy Machine Gun + 1ton ammo would weigh the same as an IS MPL and neither would generate heat, relatively speaking, so why wouldnt they have comparable stats? It's not until you start getting into the 4+ MPL range that Heat Generation becomes a factor... But then HMGs require ammo, can explode you, are less accurate and require much longer face time to utilize... That's 4 detrimental stats to compensate for being a heatless weapon.

[TyphonCh]

El Bandito, on 13 April 2016 - 09:25 PM, said:

MGs need to not suck first. Remove or at least reduce the CoF and there is less need for alternative MGs.

Still wouldn't solve the problem, as the OP pointed out.
There's no option in between .5 ton and 6 ton. Some lights and mediums are insta gimped when they have multiple ballistic hardpoints in place of tonnage efficient energy hardpoints.
*COUGH*panther*COUGH*spider*COUGH*

I don't disagree regular MG's need a buff... They straight up suck balls.

Edited by Team Chevy86, 13 April 2016 - 11:59 PM.

[El Bandito]

Team Chevy86, on 13 April 2016 - 11:58 PM, said:

Still wouldn't solve the problem, as the OP pointed out.
There's no option in between .5 ton and 6 ton. Some lights and mediums are insta gimped when they have multiple ballistic hardpoints in place of tonnage efficient energy hardpoints.
*COUGH*panther*COUGH*spider*COUGH*

I don't disagree regular MG's need a buff... They straight up suck balls.

MG array is the next logical move.

[LordNothing]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 13 April 2016 - 09:58 PM, said:

And this only highlights the actual problem we have. Boating. Let's assume the HMG has 1.4 dps.

Sure, on a mech with only 2B slots? It's a good thing. 1.4 dps on them would only make it 2.8 dps.

I'll take a SHC-P with an extra ballistic RA. 7B slots. Now you have 9.8 dps with nearly no heat. Consider that a DWF with three UAC/10 is investing 36 tons + ammo, and can only dish out a sustained 9.16 dps.

Hardpoint inflation is the biggest devil in this issue, if anything. A modest 0.2 dps increase per weapon is too little for a mech which can only use one, but that's +1.4 dps on a mech that can use 7 of them. Imagine an increase of +1 damage on a SPL for a mech which has 14 hardpoints.

comparing a hmg to a uac10 is a bad idea. and the reason why is range. a better example would be srms. srms are completely superior to every other weapon in game in terms of damage. its why a viable light mech build with a 72 point alpha exists. the reason they are not op (citation needed) is heat, range, and spread. mgs also have 2 of those issues. spread, to a lesser degree, and they have much less range. so lets use srms as out comparative example.

so put 7 srm2s on an archer. this mech has 15.05 dps! this would be tonnage equivalent to a 1t hmg x7, equivalent to the worst case scenario 7hmg scat only doing 9.8 dps. i still think that is too high considering its a no heat weapon. so we will make some concessions. first we will get rid of its crit ability. second, we can give it a small amount of heat (gauss equivalent). finally i would bring the dps of the clan hmg down to 1.2 dps (x7 = 8.4), so its still 50% better in terms of armor damage. but i would also take range out to 150 meters, max of 300.

the is version can run 1.5 dps and be 2 tons. any 6mg platform like the arrow or a certain jager would have a dps of 9. range for the is version stays the same as the normal machine gun and it picks up the heat and looses the crit chance like the clan version. btw the equivalent srm4 x7 archer does over 20 dps.

Edited by LordNothing, 14 April 2016 - 12:30 AM.

[EurakaLi]

I think a small heat and damage number can adjust too,leave those actual number for PGI to do.Just trying to give an general direction of a upgrade of MG should help people with more build option.

btw I think those light pack with tons of srm is a bit op....no face time alpha damage. lucky they don't have too many tonnage for engine...

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

clownwarlord, on 13 April 2016 - 09:45 PM, said:

OK I would like to point out MGs are suppose to suck against mechs. MGs are and prominently used for anti-personnel, not for anti-armor.

Now as for dakka the ACs are not true ACs they don't really pump out rounds, and in many cases they seem and act more like simi-automatics which is depressing.

hence why the spider should have sucked lol