41 replies to this topic

[Whizbang AGNC]

First of all I come from the old school of MW2 and up. In the past the machine guns though there were mostly a harassing weapon and didn't have a lot of power. The ones you have programmed in can take out an assault mech too easily. And with the last patch you made them even more powerful. The mechs are billed as walking high tech tanks so let me give you a real world scenario. Let me give you a tommy gun, drop you in Afghanistan an you bring me an M!A! Abrams tank. Then let me know how that works out for you. If I don't hear back I'll assume it went poorly. Lowering the values of the high tech weapons like lasers and raising the values of antiquated (to a mech) like a machine gun is backwards. Even the Rat Patrol didn't take out Tiger tanks with their M2's and that was WW2 tanks.

Also the previous versions of MW knew that for a high tech weapon it would naturally have 360 degree radar. The mechs in this are lower tech than their previous counterparts.

Also the Dire Wolf is under protected. I understand that for the amount of firepower it can carry it needs to have deficits. Speed would and always was one. But for the lack of AMS it can carry and the total lack of ECM capability you have made it a slow mech that takes too long to get to a battle. During the long walk it is nothing but a big dead target for the missile boats before it can get there. Not to mention it is too slow to counter anything a light scout can do to it. And with the lack of support most of the other players give their assault mechs in quick play it is too vulnerable to everything.

Can we also get a limit on how many times a map can be played in a gioven time. Lat night the group must have played Polar Highlands 30 times in a night. At one point it got selected 5 times in a row. People may complain about it but with the penalty after that many times I lose enough interest to just start sitting it out. We should also be able to choose a mech after we know the mission. The military wouldn't equip marines with 45's and send them in to take out tanks.

[FupDup]

Did you play Mechwarrior 3? Machine Guns were insane in that game. Boat 16 of them and literally oneshot an assault mech in the center torso from the front.

Secondly, MGs mounted on our Battlemechs are not dinky little Tommy Guns or anything else that an infantry soldier can use. They weigh 500-1000 kilograms for the Inner Sphere and half that for Clans (because magical space materials). These things are as big as the car you drive to work in the morning. Their tonnage makes them more comparable to things like the GAU-8.

Third, the armor type on our Battlemechs is ablative. It's designed specifically to break off the outer layers when hit to reduce the amount of force that the main unit gets hit with. That means you can whittle it down with smaller weapons easier than pure solid plating.

Also, all three types of Clan MGs just got nerfed so wish granted.

Edited by FupDup, 12 December 2017 - 02:03 PM.

[Mcgral18]

"MGs don't tear through armor, it's impossible!"




Oh, look, a modern (actually 40 years old) MG which was designed to remove armor
It weights a half ton


Imagine what would happen in 1000 years! An MG more effective for the same weight!


"But MG means 5.56 calibrrrrbt dummy!"
No, no it doesn't.

[Magnumaniac]

You have your M1A1 Abrams, I'll have the gun from the A-10 Warthog (commonly known as the "tank-buster") - which is roughly what a Battletech machine gun equates to... let me know how that works out for you

[Mcgral18]

Not to mention, because of the Ablative armor, even infantry Small Arms can destroy mech armor (in sufficient quantities)
Just takes a lot of it


Let alone a quarter-full ton weapon system designed to tear apart Ablative armor

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Consider also that MGs do little against armor and are far better against internals. Similarly, a Thompson SMG will do squat against an Abrams' armor, but shoved into a hole made by an RPG and it'll slaughter the crew in moments.

[Grus]

Mcgral18, on 12 December 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

"MGs don't tear through armor, it's impossible!"




Oh, look, a modern (actually 40 years old) MG which was designed to remove armor
It weights a half ton


Imagine what would happen in 1000 years! An MG more effective for the same weight!


"But MG means 5.56 calibrrrrbt dummy!"
No, no it doesn't.

that's not a machine gun.. that's a 30mm gatling gun... you need to look at the m2 .50 cal

[Grus]

The GAU in the photo is more like a RAC2

[Mcgral18]

Grus, on 12 December 2017 - 02:28 PM, said:

The GAU in the photo is more like a RAC2

No, not really


That's 6 tons, on top of Space magic
Blame PGI for using a weak looking weapon
MWLL had more meat to it (and would you guess it, it was gatling)

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Grus, on 12 December 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

that's not a machine gun.. that's a 30mm gatling gun... you need to look at the m2 .50 cal

...which was also originally developed during WWI as a machine gun capable of piercing the armor then in use, up to and including that carried on first-generation tanks. The .50BMG round remains effective against light armored vehicles to this day despite a full century of progress, although it is not capable of penetrating modern tank armor.

[Shadowomega1]

Grus, on 12 December 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

that's not a machine gun.. that's a 30mm gatling gun... you need to look at the m2 .50 cal

While an M2 .50 cal weigh in around 80 to 150 lbs the weapon on a mech weighs between 500 to 1000 lbs. Furthermore .50 cal round weighs .09 to .1 lbs per round where in MWO it is 1lb per round.

If we compare it to modern equipment than what is classed as "Machine Gun" is more of a 20mm to 40mm cannon.

[Grus]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Autocannon/2

Ac's start at about 25mm now that GAU is a 30mm.. So it can be classed, and because it's a "rotary" as a RAC2... again, not a machine gun..

.50cal or maybe a 15mm... but not bigger than that. Otherwise guess what? Ac2...

[Whizbang AGNC]

It still doesn't take from the fact that they are 10 or more time more powerful here than they were originally designed. A piss ant machine gun should never equate the power of a laser, gauss, or AC. If they ever could be that there would be no need for the other 3. Then lets just take away all others and everybody can just use machine guns. Or better yet just drop the mechs and all run around with machine guns like doom or GTA. At least until they make the pistol the equal of the machine gun.

The A-10 is closer to an AC than a MG.

And Bad in 1000 years MG won't even exist except in a museum. Over in the display next to the flintlocks. Stupid!

[Mcgral18]

Whizbang AGNC, on 12 December 2017 - 02:46 PM, said:

It still doesn't take from the fact that they are 10 or more time more powerful here than they were originally designed. A piss ant machine gun should never equate the power of a laser, gauss, or AC. If they ever could be that there would be no need for the other 3. Then lets just take away all others and everybody can just use machine guns. Or better yet just drop the mechs and all run around with machine guns like doom or GTA. At least until they make the pistol the equal of the machine gun.

The A-10 is closer to an AC than a MG.

And Bad in 1000 years MG won't even exist except in a museum. Over in the display next to the flintlocks. Stupid!

The MG is equal to the AC2

Your argument is bad, and you should feel bad

[Khobai]

RAC2 gets 300 shots per ton

that means each round is ~7 lbs

Gau8 rounds are 1.5 lbs

So it fires rounds that are about 5 times heavier



amusingly, regular AC2s fire rounds that weigh 27 lbs each (2000 lbs per ton / 75 ammo per ton = 27 lbs)

which is more than a 120mm tank shell weighs (theyre about 20 lbs each)



battletech ammo weighs a ridiculous amount

maybe some of that tonnage is supposed to represent the ammo feed systems to move ammunition through the hollow spaces of the mech.

Edited by Khobai, 12 December 2017 - 02:56 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Grus, on 12 December 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Autocannon/2

Ac's start at about 25mm now that GAU is a 30mm.. So it can be classed, and because it's a "rotary" as a RAC2... again, not a machine gun..

.50cal or maybe a 15mm... but not bigger than that. Otherwise guess what? Ac2...

Guess what?
It has the same damage as an AC2

It could very well be the same caliber!

Range (and precision at range, being the AC excuse for poor range) is the difference
They both deal the same damage, with the HMG dealing MORE damage than the AC2

[Khobai]

Quote

Ac's start at about 25mm now that GAU is a 30mm.

yeah but heres where it gets hilarious

if an AC2 shell is only 25mm and weighs 27 lbs, it would have to be like 100 inches long.

oops I meant inches not feet lmao. itd be about 10 feet long though.

which is pretty stupid lol. its basically firing rods...

realistically an AC2 has gotta fire like 150mm-200mm shells

Edited by Khobai, 12 December 2017 - 03:21 PM.

[Wolfways]

Sarna:
The Machine Gun is the quintessential anti-infantry weapon, issuing a stream of bullets at a high rate of fire to cut down opposing soldiers, while still being effective at damaging BattleMechs. Vehicular-scale machine guns mounted on BattleMechs can lay low entire platoons in just a few passes thanks to their high rate of fire, though they are more commonly found on Combat Vehicles and ProtoMechs.^[1] These weapons are much heavier than those typically carried by infantry, but can be used by them when placed on a static mount, where they are called Support Machine Guns.^[8][9] Battle Armor can also carry machine guns, typically upgraded versions of infantry-support weapons, which can rival their larger vehicular-scale cousins.^[10]
Beyond the "standard" models Clan Smoke Jaguar was the first to create Light Machine Guns and Heavy Machine Guns, which the other Clans and the Inner Sphere eventually fielded as well. The Federated Suns were also the first to mount multiple machine guns on the same linked platform creating the Machine Gun Array.

[Grus]

Khobai, on 12 December 2017 - 03:05 PM, said:

yeah but heres where it gets hilarious

if an AC2 shell is only 25mm and weighs 27 lbs, it would have to be like 100 feet long.

Huh? 25mm is the projectile bore/width/gurth. You also have to take in account the ammo "pack" adds weight to the equation.


The AH-64 has a ammo pack like a clip for its 30mm chain gun that is heavy in its own right.

[Grus]

So the ammo weight can be normal but the "pack" it's in May have a complicated chain or carrier system built in that adds more weight. Let alone if said pack as any armor around it at all.