34 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

Pgi admit they made a mistake? lolno...

[Cold Darkness]

if the desync by going maximum dps is an issue, then work around it by only using them every second cycle.
you wont go maximum dps like that, but that would only matter if you absolutely want to put the pressure on, since you would get heatcaped quickly anyways.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 15 December 2017 - 01:48 AM, said:

CERML damage needs to be lowered, it should be 6 damage instead of 7 damage

but all the other stats should also be changed appropriately (less heat, shorter cooldown, shorter duration, etc...)

CERML should be 6 damage, 5.4 heat, 4.00 cooldown, 1.0 beam duration, 400m/800m range

that gives it 1 more damage than the ISERML

but also gives it 1 less damage than the CMPL

which is exactly where it should be

It also gives it dramatically better damage over duration and DPS than the IS ERML. Even after both lasers get their respective skill tree bonuses, the Clan one has better damage over duration and DPS with your numbers. So what do you plan to give the IS ERML in compensation?

[Khobai]

Quote

It also gives it dramatically better damage over duration and DPS than the IS ERML. Even after both lasers get their respective skill tree bonuses, the Clan one has better damage over duration and DPS with your numbers. So what do you plan to give the IS ERML in compensation?

quirks

after you apply the IS laser quirks to the ISERML theyre likely about equal to my proposed CERML

or close enough at least

all that would be left then is to make IS-DHS into true double heatsinks

Edited by Khobai, 15 December 2017 - 10:47 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 15 December 2017 - 10:43 AM, said:

quirks

after you apply the IS quirks to the ISERML theyre likely about equal

You plan on applying duration quirks generously? Because right now they are quite rare. So are cooldown quirks in excess of 10%, which you will also need for the DPS half. In fact you will need 20%.

No. This plan sucks. It is a logistical nightmare and operates on the concept that IS gear must start out as crap so you can quirk them

Go back to the drawing board, friend.

[Khobai]

Quote

You plan on applying duration quirks generously? Because right now they are quite rare. So are cooldown quirks in excess of 10%, which you will also need for the DPS half. In fact you will need 20%.

doesnt necessarily have to be duration quirks or cooldown quirks.

could be heat generation quirks for example.

the whole point of asymmetrical balance is that IS and clan tech is different. They dont share the same advantages.


besides as long as the ghost heat limit is set higher on the ISERML it should work out fine...

set the ghost heat limit to 7 on the ISERML (7*5 = 35 damage) and 6 (6*6 = 36 damage) for the CERML (assuming its nerfed to 6 damage)

7 ISERMLs will do 35 damage in a lower beam duration than it takes 6 CERMLs to do 36 damage. Theres your advantage.

You might need to add some energy hardpoints to IS mechs, but IS mechs lacking hardpoints compared to clan mechs is part of what needs to be fixed anyway.

Edited by Khobai, 15 December 2017 - 11:05 AM.

[Mole]

Well. There was a lot of fuss made over this nerf and it caused a few of my builds to move back to regular MLs such as my Commando because DPS was more vaulable than range to my Commando. Otherwise, a lot of my 'mechs haven't really been hit too bad by this nerf. Most of my IS 'mechs that make use of the ERML are built for poking at mediumish range anyway, and when peeking I often find that by the time I feel it is safe to peek again, or I have found a new position to peek from, my lasers are off cooldown anyway. The same holds true for the Clan ERML as well. If you guys want to campaign to roll back the nerf, that's fine. I don't mind. But my performance has been scantily affected by it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited by Mole, 15 December 2017 - 11:09 AM.

[Khobai]

well almost everyone agrees the regular medium laser was nerfed too hard

although the ERML nerfs were certainly justified (and CERML is still too good)

but there needs to be more incentive to use the non-ER versions of lasers

they should have shorter beam durations than the ER versions

Edited by Khobai, 15 December 2017 - 11:12 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Xetelian, on 15 December 2017 - 01:40 AM, said:

See, that is the wrong approach.

Make other weapons better and you'll see less of an advantage by lasers?

• Lasers don't have ammo, so up the amount of ammo in each ton of a ballistic and shorter ranged missile weapons.
  
• Lasers don't have travel time, so up the velocity on the slower weapons.
  
• Lasers are light? Well they're hot so just decrease the heat of ballistics and missiles

That is how I approach this.



They nerfed SRM, UACs, Gauss, PPC, LRMs, and left lasers as the only thing that hadn't been severely hit. I mean there were a few range nerfs but we're talking about the medium laser nerfs specifically.




Can we get rid of engine desync? Or rebalance the entirety of the assault mech lineup? My Atlas with a 350 STD engine can't fit a LFE because of the weapons in its shoulders and can't twist enough to warrant using it over a CP-10-Q or BLR 1G or BNC 3M or VTR.


Can we unnerf the cSPL by 1 point? 2 points of damage off of them was too much and the extremely small DPS gains do NOT make up for that fact.

No, it is not the wrong approach. Why? I just say: TTK

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 15 December 2017 - 10:53 AM, said:

doesnt necessarily have to be duration quirks or cooldown quirks.

could be heat generation quirks for example.

Heat less important for a trade; range, damage, and beam are king. Need DPS so you can actually papercut and need duration to not eat way more damage than you deal per papercut.

Quote

the whole point of asymmetrical balance is that IS and clan tech is different. They dont share the same advantages.

Correct.

So why are you giving the Clans ALL of the advantages built right in? The asymmetry should be a broad characteristic, e.g. Clan lasers have range and raw damage but IS have speed and burst damage. In a balanced game, the two ER Medium lasers would have the same DPS per number of guns, but they would play quite differently since one side stuffs its proverbial fist through 'Mechs while the other makes quick cuts that add up over time.

But you don't do that. Your interpretation of asymmetry is to give Clans every advantage and then gift some chosen IS 'Mechs with magical quirks that make them less bad in one or two specific ways. That is difficult to manage with so many 'Mechs in the game, PGI simply wouldn't have the time to tune them all. They clearly already don't. Better to balance the equipment and use quirks on both sides for flavor rather than trying to use the quirks as the primary balance tool.

Quote

besides as long as the ghost heat limit is set higher on the ISERML it should work out fine...

set the ghost heat limit to 7 on the ISERML (7*5 = 35 damage) and 6 (6*6 = 36 damage) for the CERML (assuming its nerfed to 6 damage)

7 ISERMLs will do 35 damage in a lower beam duration than it takes 6 CERMLs to do 36 damage. Theres your advantage.

You might need to add some energy hardpoints to IS mechs, but IS mechs lacking hardpoints compared to clan mechs is part of what needs to be fixed anyway.

If we are going to increase ghost heat limits, why bother with the cERML change at all? Just boost isERML/ML to 8 (like it should be) and be done with it. On its own, a reduction of 1 damage will not curb Clan alphas. Linking larges and mediums, too, just makes Gauss-vomit, ERLL vomit, and staggered cMPL more attractive. You have fewer 'Mechs that can do this sufficiently well. Just like what happened with your favorite PPC+Gauss over-nerf (should have been 3x, not 2x), the game only gets more homogeneous. Nerf alphas too far, and the game snaps to a fairly homogeneous brawl-overwatch meta.

[Wolfways]

Khobai, on 15 December 2017 - 11:09 AM, said:

but there needs to be more incentive to use the non-ER versions of lasers

Less heat generation isn't incentive?

Khobai, on 15 December 2017 - 10:43 AM, said:

all that would be left then is to make IS-DHS into true double heatsinks

You mean clan DHS right?

[Y E O N N E]

Wolfways, on 15 December 2017 - 11:45 AM, said:

Less heat generation isn't incentive?


You mean clan DHS right?

No, he doesn't.

You self-imposed limitations are irrelevant to game balance.

[Wolfways]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 December 2017 - 11:49 AM, said:

No, he doesn't.

You self-imposed limitations are irrelevant to game balance.

I never mentioned my mechs. I'm thinking of just about every match I'm in where clan mechs die because they overheated and shutdown. It's rare to see an IS mech shutdown.
Of course there are clan mechs that don't constantly overheat. They're all using small lasers.

[Weeny Machine]

I think lasers in general should be less useful than at the moment. It is ludicrious to get shot across half the map with a hitscan weapon with crazy range, low weight and no ammo.

It is no surprise that still laser vomit rules...

[Y E O N N E]

Wolfways, on 15 December 2017 - 11:54 AM, said:

I never mentioned my mechs. I'm thinking of just about every match I'm in where clan mechs die because they overheated and shutdown. It's rare to see an IS mech shutdown.
Of course there are clan mechs that don't constantly overheat. They're all using small lasers.

I headshot a shut-down Thunderbolt the other day.

Just last night, I got to plant some PPCs up the rear of a shut-down Hellspawn.

IS 'Mechs overheat all the time.

When you actually customize the 'Mech, the Clan 'Mech ends up running colder than its similarly built IS counterpart. More damage with more dissipation than the extra heat can cancel out results in greater sustainable output. If you want specific examples I can provide them, the numbers are plain as day.

Clan 'Mechs that overheat really have no excuse.