104 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Wolfways, on 17 December 2017 - 01:46 PM, said:

If you are just hiding yes, but you can move around most maps without taking LRM fire but direct weapons can still hit you.


But RAC's are dps weapons, not intended for peeking. I haven't tried them but I've spectated others using them and looked at their stats and they are obviously good at their job. I still think AC's are better because you get dps and peeking with them, although if you know where the target is you can start the RAC barrel before you peek.
The reason they are not great weapons in general is because of the amount of cover on maps.

LRMs are DPS weapons, too.

While they aren't great at long range, at 300-500 meters they do solid DPS. I've run a pair of LRM10A on a MAD-5D to supplement some lasers and had solid results. The reason they aren't good is because they are too spread and they take too long to reach the target.

ACs are not really DPS weapons. They are poke, but they get you better sustain when hot. UACs are burst damage weapons except for the 2-class. RACs are the only ballistics that are purely about DPS.

Quote

Doesn't an AC2 with 2000 speed take around 2 seconds to hit a target at 1000m? Feels like it does.
Missiles traveling at that speed would look weird anyway.

As Jay said, it takes 0.5 seconds.

MRMs fly that fast and don't look sillly. Real missiles fly much faster and don't look silly.

[Wolfways]

tker 669, on 17 December 2017 - 01:42 PM, said:

I agree that every weapon should be viable in there roll.

I don't hate lurms at all. I think that they should have a velocity increase. A substantial one at that. I also think that LOS should make arty work so that the guy working to keep his target in sight is rewarded.

You and I also agree on that lurms should absolutely be able to be effective at ranges greater than 4-500 metres. A long range weapon that is completely useless at range is silly.

As far as limiting goes...I believe in this full out. You don't need limits on direct fire as they are many and varied enough to have a more or less natural balance. Lurms however, especailly if they were decent would be abused. In the lower tiers they already are.

Having six lurmers a side is pretty normal in some parts of our universe...at the height of the ppc/gauss meta you would never, ever see that many on both sides.

Again, you want lrm's effective in their roll? You would absolutely, to balance them have to make it so matches don't end up with two teams a thousand metres apart, stationary, mashing buttons. Don't get me wrong I would absolutely if I could, also limit sniper builds to a couple a team max if I could.

I would be happy and willing to bet that if the match maker were set to limit long range builds in general to four a team (or something of the sort), that this alone (having proper team composition as well as even tonnage) would make games a whole ***** ton more betterer. So yeah I would say that lurms are in a class that (especially if they were good) would need limits to how many were fielded.

Increase velocity and arc, and make them F&F. Also, increase the cooldown between volleys so players can't send continuous streams of missiles. Maybe even require a new lock for each salvo...maybe.
Honestly though I don't see long range ever being viable for LRM's because lights have been buffed so much that if you aren't with you team or have a good bit of direct firepower you will just die to lights all the time.
Lights are the reason deathballs exist. Nobody wants to be any distance from their teammates.

Jay Leon Hart, on 17 December 2017 - 01:52 PM, said:

No, it takes 0.5s. A 2,000m/s projectile travelling 1,000m

I don't think MRMs look silly travelling at 475m/s *shrug*

Weird. I play my JM6-S when I need C-Bills and I'm sure it takes much longer to fire across the valley on Frozen City...

Yeonne Greene, on 17 December 2017 - 01:55 PM, said:

LRMs are DPS weapons, too.

While they aren't great at long range, at 300-500 meters they do solid DPS. I've run a pair of LRM10A on a MAD-5D to supplement some lasers and had solid results. The reason they aren't good is because they are too spread and they take too long to reach the target.

ACs are not really DPS weapons. They are poke, but they get you better sustain when hot. UACs are burst damage weapons except for the 2-class. RACs are the only ballistics that are purely about DPS.



As Jay said, it takes 0.5 seconds.

MRMs fly that fast and don't look sillly. Real missiles fly much faster and don't look silly.

I think LRM's could only be seen as dps because you can spam them, which I dislike.

[Y E O N N E]

Wolfways, on 17 December 2017 - 01:59 PM, said:

Weird. I play my JM6-S when I need C-Bills and I'm sure it takes much longer to fire across the valley on Frozen City...

Probably because you are shooting at a target 1400 m away and not 1000 m.That will take 0.7 seconds. The JM6-S has a 10% velocity quirk, even, so it's actually faster.

Either way, it's very fast. If it seems floaty to you, that's on you.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Wolfways, on 17 December 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

Honestly though I don't see long range ever being viable for LRM's because lights have been buffed so much that if you aren't with you team or have a good bit of direct firepower you will just die to lights all the time.
Lights are the reason deathballs exist. Nobody wants to be any distance from their teammates.

A good Light pilot is a menace. A good Assault pilot is a force of nature. Mediums & Heavies fall in between, where most people (including myself) are more comfortable.

[Troa Barton]

It's interesting to me that you have such the opposite outcome than I do with LRM's. I have seen you play and I count you as one of the few people that play well with a missile platform. Your positioning is solid and despite being a target (sharing armor) you are generally one of the last to die with a respectable damage output.
Despite this you have the exact opposite outcome I have to LRMs, for me I consistently do better with LRMs than ATMs. It allows me to deal constant damage throughout the match. I have greater heat efficiency and better backup weapons that I will use in conjunction to deal damage on problem targets.

Comparing stats, some examples:
My Supernova A is a dedicated LRM platform with 4 medium pulse, and 4 LRM 15s without artemis. (Love this mech)
W/L Ratio 1.52 K/D ratio 2.32
Pretty Baby 3 LRM 15s, 1 LPL (by far the most played out of the bunch with 300+ matches current)
W/L 1.26 K/D 2.02
Mean Baby 3 LRM+A 20s, 6 ML (Still recovering from horrible stats when using other non LRM builds only recently elited)
W/L 1.25 K/D 1.31
Mad Dog 4 LRM 15s 6 micro lasers (My go to heavy LRM boat)
W/L 1.26 K/D 1.46
My Madcat II-4 Is a dedicated ATM platform 4 ATM12s, 4 ERsL (Still finding a build that fits for me stats are still up in the air)
W/L ratio 0.92 K/D ratio 1.00

To be fair I haven't really devoted a lot of time to ATMs I don't like how ammo hungry they are, how much they weigh, how hot they are, how many crit spaces they take up, ect. I have also been LRMing it up since the pretty baby came out with several LRM platforms in my garage but only 3 ATM platforms I am experimenting with. I will concede that they are very satisfying to use, there is nothing like getting a light in that sweet spot and ripping the whole mech apart with one salvo.

I am pretty sure my issue with ATMs is that I get overly aggressive with them. I am already very aggressive with my LRMs but ATMs embolden me to suicidal ranges. I also prefer clan LRMs to IS LRMs as when they get within minimum range LRMs still do something and they still rattle the enemy's cockpit. They are also much lighter and space efficient allowing for an entire extra launcher with the same ammo equipped.

I will agree with you that they aren't directly in line with other weapon systems. The W/L and K/D ratios are not in line with my other mechs like the MAD-IIC, scorch, ANH base models, ect. LRMs in general are pretty consistent for me mostly because I play far too aggressively and LRMs require you to stay back at least a little. I do need to experiment more with ATMs though with that said I cannot counter your argument, but I can add more data from the side of LRMs.

Do I think they could use a buff? Sure perhaps a tiny one particularly to smaller launchers, anything under an LRM 15 is unusable as far as I'm concerned. Perhaps a non-linear velocity buff across the board favoring smaller launchers?

[ANOM O MECH]

Wolfways, on 17 December 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

Increase velocity and arc, and make them F&F. Also, increase the cooldown between volleys so players can't send continuous streams of missiles. Maybe even require a new lock for each salvo...maybe.
Honestly though I don't see long range ever being viable for LRM's because lights have been buffed so much that if you aren't with you team or have a good bit of direct firepower you will just die to lights all the time.
Lights are the reason deathballs exist. Nobody wants to be any distance from their teammates.

You lose me at fire and forget. I remember Top Gun in the arcade where you had to work to get a lock, then once you did, fire and forget (and also kill) the target. Cannot see a way to do that in this game without making them way over powered or you would have to keep them at the garbage speed they are now.

You also lose me at how you could possibly think that lights are that OP... Boggles my mind actually, despite it being the only class I could pull out stats that wouldn't be embarassing.

I run lights and fast mediums a great deal. Cicada's (loving mobility buff), Osiris', Arctic Cheetah's, and Arctic Wolf's, are generally what you will see me running lately. Oh and the trial Phoenix Hawk has convinced me to at least get that one.

The buff for the Cicada is the only aid to lighter chasis I can recall recently (if I am wrong, which is very possible, please show me). It was needed. Cicada's to really be effective need XL's. They have giant legs that are easy to hit from far. I mean, really for the life of me I can't see where you are coming from here. Lights are very hard to get decent at. They are very unforgiving. LRM's if you are caught, will wipe your legs out very quickly. If you see anything with streaks you have to turn tail and run if you want to live, which makes you not very effective in that situation.

A fast heavy or medium out by himself should easily defend himself against a light. Easily. A big fat direwhale on the otherhand, is easy pickin's and don't personally see a problem with that (although I am sorry to that Locust yesterday I one shotted with a 3 erppc MAD IIC that had not seen any action in a couple of months...). I also think that deathballs exist because it is effective. Spreading out makes focus fire for an unorganised team difficult. Deathball however and you are more likely to be all shooting the same targets.

Don't know here. My opinion is that we should perhaps all be pestering PGI to buff lurms, but not in every way you suggest. Honestly believe that the first and foremost thing that should be addressed is the velocity. I was on Alpine yesterday in CW and I literally was side stepping a guy trying his best to shoot me...in my Battlemaster 1G. I fully exposed myself, shot three, two, then three again into him, moved back and left (h7/g7 hill). His missiles never managed to hit except for a couple of times when my arm caught one or two. It felt bad. Not kidding when I say, I was sitting there dominating this guy with impunity and felt crappy doing so. Lurms should at least be a bit tougher to avoid which is why I really, really believe that the very first thing that needs to be figured out is velocity. It is just waaaay tooo slow.

So lets at least start with velocity. Let them get to their target quickly since they have been warned already, and cover is abundant. Lets do this before arc and spread. Those can get fine tuned we get missiles to actually hit stuff other than really bad baddies, and last guys alive unable to avoid locks.

Oh and to close my windbaggedness, as a light pilot you should also like me (love me actually). Running ATM's or LRM's I am your friend. I have learned to love holding locks (despite my thread where I advocate and still do, for the ability to temporarily suspend info sharing) and during the begining of a lot of matches that is all I am doing while hoping to not get noticed. Then (since I barely have any firepower), you guys using my locks strip away the armour getting in the way of me killing stuff. We're the two ends of the support coin and complement each other. So dear god please don't be one of those advocating for light nerfs, please. Believe it or not, it is most likely a light pilot on your team that is going to be the biggest help to you in getting locks outside of your own.

[OmniFail]

While this thread is not without misinformation, It does seem better than most LRM threads. LRM's are not as easy to use as most posters make out. There is a learning curve. LRM's face many challenges that the users must learn to over come.

Anyway Brain Cancer. I'm inspired by your post. I'll have a "Battle Buddy Week". Each Drop I'll pick one of the assaults and stick with him to see if my stats improve. I'm sure it'll be great fun.

Edited by OmniFail, 17 December 2017 - 05:04 PM.

[SteelMantis]

OmniFail, on 17 December 2017 - 03:45 PM, said:

While this thread is not without misinformation, It does seem better than most LRM threads. LRM's are not as easy to use as most posters make out. There is a learning curve. LRM's face many challenges that the users must learn to over come.

Exactly right. LRMs are fine and anybody who isn't putting up decent numbers with them (not just damage but W/L, K/D etc.) just doesn't know how to use LRMs effectively.

LRMs are better vs. weaker players and worse vs. stronger players. If they were buffed to be good enough for comp play without a total rework they could easily be much too powerful in solo QP.

[Ted Wayz]

OP, did you consider you might be bad with LRMs? Maybe it wasn't the LRMs at all. Is your mind blown yet?

When people are bad at something, or when something is hard to be good at, then it is always the something at fault. Go figure!

[JediPanther]

Now you know how former lrm users feel. Direct fire will always beat a lrm heavy team or mech but at least before the artemis and missile arc nerfs they were decent. Now they are just dead weight. Lasers,ac and guass all you need now.

[Wolfways]

tker 669, on 17 December 2017 - 03:32 PM, said:

You lose me at fire and forget. I remember Top Gun in the arcade where you had to work to get a lock, then once you did, fire and forget (and also kill) the target. Cannot see a way to do that in this game without making them way over powered or you would have to keep them at the garbage speed they are now.

How would F&F make a difference to the missiles? It would just mean that the firer could, after launching the missiles, do something other than stay facing the target to keep lock and hope he doesn't get cored.

Quote

You also lose me at how you could possibly think that lights are that OP... Boggles my mind actually, despite it being the only class I could pull out stats that wouldn't be embarassing.

I run lights and fast mediums a great deal. Cicada's (loving mobility buff), Osiris', Arctic Cheetah's, and Arctic Wolf's, are generally what you will see me running lately. Oh and the trial Phoenix Hawk has convinced me to at least get that one.

The buff for the Cicada is the only aid to lighter chasis I can recall recently (if I am wrong, which is very possible, please show me). It was needed. Cicada's to really be effective need XL's. They have giant legs that are easy to hit from far. I mean, really for the life of me I can't see where you are coming from here. Lights are very hard to get decent at. They are very unforgiving. LRM's if you are caught, will wipe your legs out very quickly. If you see anything with streaks you have to turn tail and run if you want to live, which makes you not very effective in that situation.

A fast heavy or medium out by himself should easily defend himself against a light. Easily. A big fat direwhale on the otherhand, is easy pickin's and don't personally see a problem with that (although I am sorry to that Locust yesterday I one shotted with a 3 erppc MAD IIC that had not seen any action in a couple of months...). I also think that deathballs exist because it is effective. Spreading out makes focus fire for an unorganised team difficult. Deathball however and you are more likely to be all shooting the same targets.

I didn't say lights are OP, but if you're using long range weapons it makes sense to use them at long range, and if they are your main weapons then you want to be as far away as possible from the enemy to try to kill lights/brawlers before they get to you.
There is so much cover available on pgi's arenas that it's fairly easy for fast mechs to sneak up on lone mechs, and if your backup weapons are a few ML's then you're screwed unless the light/brawler is a very bad pilot.

Quote

Don't know here. My opinion is that we should perhaps all be pestering PGI to buff lurms, but not in every way you suggest. Honestly believe that the first and foremost thing that should be addressed is the velocity. I was on Alpine yesterday in CW and I literally was side stepping a guy trying his best to shoot me...in my Battlemaster 1G. I fully exposed myself, shot three, two, then three again into him, moved back and left (h7/g7 hill). His missiles never managed to hit except for a couple of times when my arm caught one or two. It felt bad. Not kidding when I say, I was sitting there dominating this guy with impunity and felt crappy doing so. Lurms should at least be a bit tougher to avoid which is why I really, really believe that the very first thing that needs to be figured out is velocity. It is just waaaay tooo slow.

So lets at least start with velocity. Let them get to their target quickly since they have been warned already, and cover is abundant. Lets do this before arc and spread. Those can get fine tuned we get missiles to actually hit stuff other than really bad baddies, and last guys alive unable to avoid locks.

We (some of us) have been trying to get pgi to fix LRM's for years and I think the only things they've tried they immediately removed again because of complaints, but LRM's suck right now and some people are still calling them OP!
Honestly I'd be happy to see any buffs. My favourite BT weapons have always been pulse lasers and LRM's.

Quote

Oh and to close my windbaggedness, as a light pilot you should also like me (love me actually). Running ATM's or LRM's I am your friend. I have learned to love holding locks (despite my thread where I advocate and still do, for the ability to temporarily suspend info sharing) and during the begining of a lot of matches that is all I am doing while hoping to not get noticed. Then (since I barely have any firepower), you guys using my locks strip away the armour getting in the way of me killing stuff. We're the two ends of the support coin and complement each other. So dear god please don't be one of those advocating for light nerfs, please. Believe it or not, it is most likely a light pilot on your team that is going to be the biggest help to you in getting locks outside of your own.

I'm the same when I pilot my Raven-3L. Unfortunately, whenever I get into the thing all LRM's seem to vanish from my teams
As for OP lights, I think they are the same as other classes, some are more OP than others within the class.

[ANOM O MECH]

Wolfways, on 17 December 2017 - 11:49 PM, said:

How would F&F make a difference to the missiles? It would just mean that the firer could, after launching the missiles, do something other than stay facing the target to keep lock and hope he doesn't get cored.


I didn't say lights are OP, but if you're using long range weapons it makes sense to use them at long range, and if they are your main weapons then you want to be as far away as possible from the enemy to try to kill lights/brawlers before they get to you.
There is so much cover available on pgi's arenas that it's fairly easy for fast mechs to sneak up on lone mechs, and if your backup weapons are a few ML's then you're screwed unless the light/brawler is a very bad pilot.


We (some of us) have been trying to get pgi to fix LRM's for years and I think the only things they've tried they immediately removed again because of complaints, but LRM's suck right now and some people are still calling them OP!
Honestly I'd be happy to see any buffs. My favourite BT weapons have always been pulse lasers and LRM's.


I'm the same when I pilot my Raven-3L. Unfortunately, whenever I get into the thing all LRM's seem to vanish from my teams
As for OP lights, I think they are the same as other classes, some are more OP than others within the class.

Fair enough. There is some stuff we may not see the same, but I don't think we are really far off.

I mean I see an awful lot of guys who lurm in tier one, and I am talking just a few minutes ago that have really respectable kdr/wlr/avg score.

Taken all together in spite of some really terrible guys in tier one in general (for a few months during medical treatment with a side of divorce I was certainly one), you can't say that there are not a bunch of guys getting all of this by at the very least knowing where to be and squeezing a lot out of what I would personally find so much less effort to do (because I practiced a lot and have been playing for years now) with ppc's or gauss.

I guess I also don't see the fuss and hate about meta. I see an absolute ton of people, especially in quick play, do quite well with all kinds of different builds. It isn't as if tier one is full of zombies running nothing but meta with a couple of these fella's doing good with lurms now is it?

It all comes back to me as this, at it's core this is a team game. Personally it has been more fun, and I have been more successful concentrating on this and trying to help my team, while playing to the best of my abilities. It is just better than getting angry and frustrated over things completely out of your control.

[Vellron2005]

Brain Cancer, on 17 December 2017 - 04:07 AM, said:

Normally, I pilot a Supernova-A. ATM loadouts. It does pretty good, and at the beginning of this, I was a healthy 1.22 W/L and 1.77 K/D. Heck, last game before this experiment was a six-kill one.

So of course, I wanted to see how terrible it'd be with lurms instead.

One day's worth of play was enough to knock that down to 1.16/1.58. No stopping power whatsoever. LRM 70-80(with Artemis) did noticeably less effective damage than ATM 36, and worse still didn't really benefit from firing at targets in line of sight- salvos that would have broken something with ATMs simply failed to do any really noticeable damage, in part because LRMs actually don't reward you much for doing so. You get no better clustering, no improved damage,nothing but exposure to fire. This encourages hiding, which in turn means your team gets more fire instead.

Moreover, teams actually got worse over time as things shifted from US primetime to European. Depressingly, the lurmboat, even with repeated stomps and the most incompetent basement-humping-on-HPG teams was still barely scoring higher...but given spread, it was right down there in the toilet with the direct fire types. Kills were rare- one game out of a dozen was a 2-kill game, with most being one or zero. The gentle damage of LRMs also emboldens opponents, who rightfully see an easy kill (and yes, I had lasers too). That is, to experience players LRMs are no longer much of a threat. There's no stopping power at this point, with the last spread nerf having defanged the launchers even further than before.

And yes, I know that's old news. What's sad is that it's actually gotten noticeably worse since the Artemis nerf. Sure, you can play aggressively and rack up damage, but it takes dozens more missiles to do serious harm with an LRM now, and more time. Time your opponent has to shoot you or your team. So just don't. Clantech LRMs are probably the worst balanced weapon in the game, closely followed by IS ones.

So, I understand the base premise of your experiment.. You wanted to see if your stats would improve or diminish when you switched from ATMs to LRMs..

That's fine..

Only.. the base premise is flawed.

You're not going to get the same amount of kills and stuff... you switched from a damage-dealing weapon to a suppression weapon.

LRM's are NOT MEANT for getting high number of kills. They are meant for pushing the enemy into cover, so the brawlers can push and smash them, and for punishing the enemy that does not obey.

You simply cannot compare the two.

Also, the two weapons have completely different play styles, it's like apples and oranges.

You say you did worse.. that's cose you're not used to LRMs as much as ATMs..

I, for instance, regularly get 2+ KMDDs with LRM boats, and get 2 kills / solos per match quite often. Just the other day, I had finished the "get one solo kill" challenge on 3 accounts in 3 games.

Yesterday, I had a 4 kill, 3 of which solo kills game on HPG.. And then my Fiancee had a similar game in her own LRM boat..

So I guess it comes down to who is behind the controls?

I agree that the artemis nerf hit the LRMs hard, but even harder was the lock-on arc nerf.. that one killed LRM bending completely..

Edited by Vellron2005, 18 December 2017 - 12:55 AM.

[Mystere]

Appogee, on 17 December 2017 - 06:23 AM, said:

Invalid analogy.

With LRMs, you're not whacking anyone in the arm. You're flicking them, just a little, all over. And then you're flicking them all over just a little again. And again. Nowhere gets bruised until you've flicked them a dozen times.

So your 500 damage is about as useful as 100 damage delivered directly to one component.

It's a pity MWO's scoring system does not take into sufficient account the 'usefulness' of damage. It might encourage more players to deliver useful damage.

A large chunk of the player base already wants LRMs to be even more next to useless than they are now and you want to punish LRMs some more?

Maybe before PGI implements your "useful damage" scoring system, they should should first make LRMs more useful by significantly reducing their spread, significantly increasing their velocity, and making them hit the component where the reticle is aiming -- including the cockpit.

Wolfways, on 17 December 2017 - 12:04 PM, said:

The goal should be to make all weapons viable, not discourage using some of them.

What can I say? Haters are always gonna hate.

Edited by Mystere, 18 December 2017 - 08:49 AM.

[davoodoo]

Brain Cancer, on 17 December 2017 - 04:49 AM, said:

People don't generally use AMS, though. And you don't fire indirect. You peek over hills. You dump missiles into people at shorter ranges, so you actually deal damage.

I mean, I just swapped back to ATMs. Bang. Two dead targets, both with torsos that I'd have to spend another full minute or so hosing down with LRMs to make an impression, plus a KMDD on a Javelin I just plain abused every time it got in LOS.

I mean, I used to run LRM boats all the time. This last nerf was the final straw in terms of effectiveness- the LRM, especially the CLRM is now an all-around sandblaster. I mean, I was on Polar earlier and got rained on until I was down to 20% health.

I didn't lose a single component or piece of equipment. That's just ridiculously poor now, when an assault gets that much spread on hits without even really trying.

Minute fire with lrms?? you mentioned earlier lrm80 so i guess 4x lrm20 supernova with 1 lrm20 per second when chainfiring

that will give us mere 1200 dmg per mintue, lets even say that you spend 30s cooling down, thats still 600 dmg.

did you miss 80% of missiles somehow??

Edited by davoodoo, 18 December 2017 - 08:53 AM.

[Appogee]

Mystere, on 18 December 2017 - 08:45 AM, said:

What can I say? Haters are always gonna hate.

...and 'taters are always gonna 'tate.

[Humpday]

I got chewed up by ATMs this weekend pretty bad, some people are starting to get really good with them and are learning how to effectively bunny hop them. Those things man, they freaking shred you up.

Also, whats up with LRMs and those things going straight to the mechs legs? I don't get how 70 point of leg armor all gets shredded over my upper torsos. Having your legs be damaged is far more crippling than having a torso get opened up.

[Burke IV]

Ever feel like the game would have been better is there had been no skill tree, no massive armour buffs, no agility nerfs...just let the IS have their rotarys and MRMs and everything would have been great.

I know this doesnt really add anything but what can you say.

If PGI wanted to help get LRMs back onto lighter mechs they will need to address the amount of ammo that can be carrried compared to the amount of armour running about. In game ammo restocks would help alot.

[Brain Cancer]

tker 669, on 17 December 2017 - 11:46 AM, said:

I don't understand what the point or purpose to this thread might be.

Almost every thread that has to do with lurms you are all over. I think we get that you like lurms. To be honest even your stats with ATM's doesn't say much to me other than how bad the players currently in tier one are. ATM's might be better than lurms but they are still a poor choice.

This certainly is a topic which gets people riled up. There does not seem to be much of a consensus on what to do however and threads like this seem like only a place where people who really want to argue and rant come.

Do you have anything constructive to add to the conversation?

Can you do anything other than fan the flames that are already skyscrapper height?

Until something actually changes? No. I mean, I was getting 2/3 games with King Harkanian last night.

You know, the guy with the 2 W/L, 5+ KDR per game, pretty much an autoloss for the PUG queue if he's on the red team.

My stats crashed back down to barely 1+ W/L because I'd be working my butt off to get a kill in before he'd either ganked me, or ganked so much of the team that it collapsed. No salt, he's just ten times better than me and now that I'm T1, it's almost inevitable at that hour with most good players in the group queue. T1-T3 spread, whoever farms the potatoes faster wins. That's him, in the Nova, laservomiting, jump-dunking people left and right the way someone sensibly following the meta allows. I've got a 30FPS hamster-powered computer. If it's not missiles, it's not going to be accurate fire. Heck, in games where I'm not being owned by the best, I put up my 3,4 kill matches and carry assuming it's not another "PUG team decided to split up to attack a square" or "PUG team decided to (insert killbox area on map) despite being warned otherwise"...in which case I usually kill something if it's not a total team-double-digit-damage SNAFU.

I'm just sick of LRMs (and to a lesser extent, ATMs) getting the shaft. He just helps make the point that there's a broad gap between weapons at this point, and the clear loser is using a missile hardpoint. It's a stinker as far as balance is concerned, and the latest iteration just seems to be a "we feel that missiles weren't inefficient enough, so we'll just make them even more so."

[Brain Cancer]

Ted Wayz, on 17 December 2017 - 05:30 PM, said:

OP, did you consider you might be bad with LRMs? Maybe it wasn't the LRMs at all. Is your mind blown yet?

When people are bad at something, or when something is hard to be good at, then it is always the something at fault. Go figure!

Actually, right about where I am now at my worst when I was straight up using LRMs pre-ATM addition. 1+ W/L, 1.3 K/D. I literally lived in lurmboats from the first Kit Fox I bought, especially after finding Orion IICs. I put up solid numbers, knew the proper tactics, and so on.

LRMs got a net hosement, especially CLRMs as the general function of CLRMs gets an additional extra negative bump if any nerf is applied. IS LRMs, from observation got less of it due to better base function and of course, if you aren't using Artemis, you probably never noticed.

ATMs just got a straight up spread nerf, but that wasn't what I was trying to see here.

Consider it takes 3 1/2+ tons of LRM ammo to kill a fresh Atlas now. That isn't moving. Call it about 180 ammo per ton, so even at maximum boating you're probably lobbing 80 missiles a cycle, 640 missiles to kill your target. 4.3 seconds per salvo, assuming you're alphaing for maximum (overheating) ROF. Times eight. Which you won't do without cooking yourself, so actually it's alternating 40 missile shots. Add some more time in there because you're going to have to wait that .5 seconds between salvos to avoid ghost heating. Roughly 35 seconds of constantly hitting a target to kill it.

Now, put an assault laservomit or ballistics boat up there and tell me you're going to need 35 seconds with 44 tons of guns (not including heat sinks or ammo) to gut a stationary Atlas that isn't firing back, literally as easy a target as it gets. It can't even passively counter your (superior) guns.

Tell me there's not something wrong with that in terms of balance.

Humpday, on 18 December 2017 - 09:07 AM, said:

I got chewed up by ATMs this weekend pretty bad, some people are starting to get really good with them and are learning how to effectively bunny hop them. Those things man, they freaking shred you up.

Also, whats up with LRMs and those things going straight to the mechs legs? I don't get how 70 point of leg armor all gets shredded over my upper torsos. Having your legs be damaged is far more crippling than having a torso get opened up.

If you're backing up, they're going to hit low. ATMs are much more guilty of this though, especially if the pilot is firing them over a hill edge- the flat arc will skim terrain lower than usual and end up plowing your legs full of explosions- and if close, it'll rip legs apart in short order. LRMs will arc higher and generally hit normally. It's another one of those ATM missile-fu tricks to learn.