41 replies to this topic

[Jonathan8883]

I got the ECM/stealth armor Javelin, and initially thought it needed a buff. Then I got 280 damage on my second game with it. If I play smart, my only problem is running out of ammo after firing off 300 SRMs. It's a surprisingly decent mech for lacking jumpjets and options.

[Escef]

Xiphias, on 20 December 2017 - 07:41 PM, said:

If Bear_Cl4w got slaughtered by LRMs it probably means he messed up. Was he running a light?

IIRC, it was an assault.... Hold on...

Ok, just checked the footage, my recollection was a bit off. He was in a 5xUAC5 Annihilator, and got half his mech torn apart by LRMs, but he did survive the match. And a good sized chunk of it was a Catapult A1 with classic HexLRM5 spam. One mech with twin AMS and overload nodes would have seen his mech come through without a single missile touching him. (Bear's a really good player, despite being focused and losing 3 of his 5 cannons relatively early he still came out of the match with 2 kills and almost 900 damage under his belt.)

[Xiphias]

Escef, on 21 December 2017 - 12:44 PM, said:

IIRC, it was an assault.... Hold on...

Ok, just checked the footage, my recollection was a bit off. He was in a 5xUAC5 Annihilator, and got half his mech torn apart by LRMs, but he did survive the match. And a good sized chunk of it was a Catapult A1 with classic HexLRM5 spam. One mech with twin AMS and overload nodes would have seen his mech come through without a single missile touching him. (Bear's a really good player, despite being focused and losing 3 of his 5 cannons relatively early he still came out of the match with 2 kills and almost 900 damage under his belt.)

A slow assault mech can benefit from AMS and has some extra tonnage to spend on it. I'm assuming that he wasn't running AMS on the build though, right? I can't think of a single exceptional/comp player I know that runs AMS.

As for lights a well played fast light won't benefit much from AMS and fast lights shouldn't be running around assaults to provide AMS. As you mentioned, despite being rained on by LRMs Bear was still able to put out nearly 900 damage. It's sounds like he did fine without having any.

AMS to me is more useful to weaker players who don't have good positioning and are more likely to get caught in the open by LRMs. In those cases it can be worth the tonnage. That said, I think AMS is more of a crutch where it allows you to make positioning mistakes and not suffer as much for it. That only works against LRMs though and if you don't learn to develop good positioning habits no amount of AMS will save you.

[Dee Eight]

The 11B which is the ECM onen can be run as 4 SRM2s with a decent size light fusion, or with SRM4s if you use an XL. Another way to go is mixed with SRMs and SSRMs. It does has a 5% spread reduction quirk also. The 11A has the 7 energy hardpoints and the only variant with any in an arm. Both the 11s come stock with FF armor and DHS, thus saving you the expense of upgrading your heat sinks later.

[TercieI]

Xiphias, on 20 December 2017 - 06:40 PM, said:

MLs just don't really have any advantages. If you want range you're better off taking ERMLs.

Weirdest realization since returning right there. The IS ML, long the baseline workhorse weapon, just doesn’t have a place with the advent of the IS ERML.

[Escef]

Xiphias, on 21 December 2017 - 01:26 PM, said:

A slow assault mech can benefit from AMS and has some extra tonnage to spend on it. I'm assuming that he wasn't running AMS on the build though, right? I can't think of a single exceptional/comp player I know that runs AMS.

As for lights a well played fast light won't benefit much from AMS and fast lights shouldn't be running around assaults to provide AMS. As you mentioned, despite being rained on by LRMs Bear was still able to put out nearly 900 damage. It's sounds like he did fine without having any.

AMS to me is more useful to weaker players who don't have good positioning and are more likely to get caught in the open by LRMs. In those cases it can be worth the tonnage. That said, I think AMS is more of a crutch where it allows you to make positioning mistakes and not suffer as much for it. That only works against LRMs though and if you don't learn to develop good positioning habits no amount of AMS will save you.

Well, what you aren't factoring in is that the AMS isn't just for the mech carrying it, it benefits any friendly getting attacked if the missiles pass within 120 meters of the AMS carrier's position. During many events the QP solo queue tends to have a lot of LRMs present, regardless of tier. There comes a point where regardless of your positioning, you're getting hit. If you unexpectedly get caught in a crossfire of LRMs/ATMs, I promise you, you'll be happy if there's a friendly AMS or two nearby.

As for it being a "crutch", I've seen players say that coolshots, strikes, clan tech, etc. are crutches. I'm at the point where "crutch", in gaming terms, says more about the person making the evaluation. AMS, much like LRMs, are situationally great, but usually sub-par. However, given the QP solo queue environment? Especially at tiers 5-3 during peak hours? Worth it enough to use. And quite frankly, the twin AMS of the 10F Javelin is the only major advantage it has over the 11A model, might as well use what makes it different/special.

[Tarogato]

TercieI, on 21 December 2017 - 01:39 PM, said:

Weirdest realization since returning right there. The IS ML, long the baseline workhorse weapon, just doesn’t have a place with the advent of the IS ERML.

I preferred standard ML over ERML until PGI nerfed the cooldown on ML so they their DPS is crap now. Without the better cooldown, the ML has no reason to exist imo. If PGI reverts the atrocity they committed, I'd be using and recommending ML over ERML again, because I just don't like how hot ERML is (considering it has less range and damage than cERML, I just don't find ERML to be worth equipping)

[Xiphias]

Escef, on 21 December 2017 - 02:18 PM, said:

Well, what you aren't factoring in is that the AMS isn't just for the mech carrying it, it benefits any friendly getting attacked if the missiles pass within 120 meters of the AMS carrier's position. During many events the QP solo queue tends to have a lot of LRMs present, regardless of tier. There comes a point where regardless of your positioning, you're getting hit. If you unexpectedly get caught in a crossfire of LRMs/ATMs, I promise you, you'll be happy if there's a friendly AMS or two nearby.

As for it being a "crutch", I've seen players say that coolshots, strikes, clan tech, etc. are crutches. I'm at the point where "crutch", in gaming terms, says more about the person making the evaluation. AMS, much like LRMs, are situationally great, but usually sub-par. However, given the QP solo queue environment? Especially at tiers 5-3 during peak hours? Worth it enough to use. And quite frankly, the twin AMS of the 10F Javelin is the only major advantage it has over the 11A model, might as well use what makes it different/special.

Sure, AMS helps the team, but ideally a fast light isn't usually playing that close enough to the bulk of the team for it to make a difference. On heavier mechs it can be a valid argument. That said it's a tradeoff between what the player can do with the AMS and what they can do with the extra tonnage. I can personally do a lot more with the extra tonnage.

As for a crutch let me clarify what I mean by that. There's a difference between "advantage" and "crutch". A coolshot can be a crutch for a player who doesn't know how to manage their heat properly. On the opposite side, I've played a long time and I'm quite good at managing my heat, I still use coolshots. I don't use coolshots as a "crutch" because I can't manage my heat. I use coolshots in combination with good heat management to gain an edge in combat. Some might consider that a crutch, but I don't see it that way. It's like using better sports equipment or gear. You can gain an extra few % of performance to get the edge, but you still need to have the base athletic performance.

The reason that I see AMS as a crutch is that it's a passive tool that primarily solves a non issue for fast mechs, getting hit by LRMs. There are very few cases where a light mech should be getting hit by LRMs if they are piloting well. While it varies by mech and map, most mechs can avoid LRMs. If you are positioning well there are few situations where AMS can actually improve your performance, they do exist (Polar probably), but they are fairly limited. The primary benefit of AMS is not improving performance while doing well, but mitigating damage when playing poorly. Sure, AMS can let you do more damage if you are playing against LRMs and you have enough that you can just stand in the open and shoot at them, but generally that's not the case.

It's kind of like the "panic strike" that I sometimes drop when I'm in a light. I've made a mistake and I drop the strike as a distraction. That's more or less a crutch. When I strategically place a strike on the enemy team that's an advantage. If a tool can't improve your performance when you are playing well, but only when you are playing poorly it's a "crutch" in my book.

[SuperMCDad]

I use 7 ML in my JVN-11A. You can still fire these all at once, as the ghost heat isn't too bad on just one extra ML (27 heat). If I tried to do the same with ERML (35 heat), I'd soon be fried. Obviously you get a bit better dps with the MLs as well. Lots of cool run and heat gen nodes help a lot. It's not a bad build, as long as you keep an eye on that heat gauge. If you are playing the striker role, you're normally up close anyway, and the ER isn't going to help you much.

Edited by SuperMCDad, 21 December 2017 - 03:00 PM.

[Xiphias]

Tarogato, on 21 December 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

I preferred standard ML over ERML until PGI nerfed the cooldown on ML so they their DPS is crap now. Without the better cooldown, the ML has no reason to exist imo. If PGI reverts the atrocity they committed, I'd be using and recommending ML over ERML again, because I just don't like how hot ERML is (considering it has less range and damage than cERML, I just don't find ERML to be worth equipping)

While the IS ERML has less range and less damage than the CERML it has the same damage per heat (1.11) as the CERML and a significantly shorter burn time (0.9 vs 1.25). If you can run more IS ERMLs to make up for the damage difference it can trade on fairly equal grounds. You're trading 40/80m of range for 0.35s of burn time which I think is a fair trade, particularly for fast mechs that don't want a lot of face time.

Take the Javelin vs the Cheetah, both 30 ton mechs. While you can run 6CERMLs on the Cheetah, it's really hot to do so, 5 (35 damage, 5.5 HPS, 4.5s cooldown) is more manageable. On the Javelin you can run the full 6ERMLs (30 damage, 5.52 HPS, 4s cooldown). On fast mechs with sufficient hard points I think I might actually prefer the IS ERMLs because the burn time is so much better. When you normalize the damage using the duration 5CERMLs does 28 damage vs 6ERMLs doing 33.3. So for time on target you can do better with the IS ERMLs for the same heat. For fast mechs I think that is important and often outweighs the extra 40/80m of range. When you only have 4 energy hardpoints it doesn't make a lot of sense to run the IS ERMLs compared to the clan ones though.

[Xiphias]

SuperMCDad, on 21 December 2017 - 02:58 PM, said:

I use 7 ML in my JVN-11A. You can still fire these all at once, as the ghost heat isn't too bad on just one extra ML (27 heat). If I tried to do the same with ERML (35 heat), I'd soon be fried. Obviously you get a bit better dps with the MLs as well. Lots of cool run and heat gen nodes help a lot. It's not a bad build, as long as you keep an eye on that heat gauge. If you are playing the striker role, you're normally up close anyway, and the ER isn't going to help you much.

I find ERMLs incredibly useful even in a striker role, sure you run hotter, but the amount of situations where you can engage safely with ERs compared to regular MLs is huge. For a greater number of hardpoints it potentially makes sense to run MLs for the DPS, with 7 you're effectively running the heat of the ERs, but with 5 extra damage. Overall though I think 6ERMLs is a lot more versatile.

[theta123]

El Bandito, on 20 December 2017 - 06:12 PM, said:

Just buy an Assassin instead.

as an owner of 8 asassins i agree wholehearty

[Jonathan8883]

IS Medium Laser: 5 damage, 3.5 cooldown, 3.4 heat
IS ER Medium Laser: 5 damage, 4 cooldown, 4.5 heat

As long as you're operating at short ranges, the IS Medium Laser is superior both in heat output and DPS.

[Xiphias]

Jonathan8883, on 21 December 2017 - 04:32 PM, said:

IS Medium Laser: 5 damage, 3.5 cooldown, 3.4 heat
IS ER Medium Laser: 5 damage, 4 cooldown, 4.5 heat

As long as you're operating at short ranges, the IS Medium Laser is superior both in heat output and DPS.

Yes, but range is a huge factor. You put yourself in a lot more danger to get to that 270 to get full damage. Also with ERs it's pretty easy to kite clan streaks. It gets a lot harder with MLs.

[CanadianCyrus]

The 10F build I like to use for QP is.http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6e45c6ab10a4b02

The Javelin in general has a lower speed but still has excellent accel/decel and you can corner or hill poke pretty well. Just poke your opponents and hang around allies who might be getting rained on with missiles and use the JJs to help get into spots to better harass your opponents. It's not the best Javelin I have IMO, but it's one of the more fun builds I like.

The 10N or 11B are the work horses of the Javelins imo. 10N is 4xSRM4 and JJs, and the 11B is 4xSRM4 and ECM (and a bit slower than the 10N). Take your pick but I do somewhat like the 10N with JJs a little more as certain maps allow you to get in and out of the action a bit better. The Jav I like least is the 10P as there's just not enough tonnage to take advantage of all 6 missile hard points proper. You can do 6xSRM2 but the weapon locations give it worse spread than 4xSRM4 and I suspect the heat won't allow the lower CD of the SRM2s to outwork quad SRM4s before needing to cool down.

[SuperMCDad]

Funzo, on 21 December 2017 - 08:17 PM, said:

The 10F build I like to use for QP is.http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6e45c6ab10a4b02

The Javelin in general has a lower speed but still has excellent accel/decel and you can corner or hill poke pretty well. Just poke your opponents and hang around allies who might be getting rained on with missiles and use the JJs to help get into spots to better harass your opponents. It's not the best Javelin I have IMO, but it's one of the more fun builds I like.

The 10N or 11B are the work horses of the Javelins imo. 10N is 4xSRM4 and JJs, and the 11B is 4xSRM4 and ECM (and a bit slower than the 10N). Take your pick but I do somewhat like the 10N with JJs a little more as certain maps allow you to get in and out of the action a bit better. The Jav I like least is the 10P as there's just not enough tonnage to take advantage of all 6 missile hard points proper. You can do 6xSRM2 but the weapon locations give it worse spread than 4xSRM4 and I suspect the heat won't allow the lower CD of the SRM2s to outwork quad SRM4s before needing to cool down.

I'm interested in how you build your quad SRM4 builds. I can't build anything that can carry enough ammo. It's probably due to my unwillingness to drop below a XL255 engine though. I normally run with 2 SRM4 and 2 SRM2s. The firing can get out of sync, but it's just like chain firing.

The 6 SRM2 10P works really well. The rapid firing 2s actually allow you to get more shots in before having to break off again. Which then allows you to cool down. Don't remember having any problems with overheating in it.

Edited by SuperMCDad, 21 December 2017 - 08:57 PM.

[Xiphias]

Funzo, on 21 December 2017 - 08:17 PM, said:

The 10F build I like to use for QP is.http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6e45c6ab10a4b02

That thing is way too slow for a light. You'd be better off taking an Urban mech at that point for the extra armor and you have an excessive amount of AMS ammo. You're also missing ferro or at the very least light ferro because of all of those external heatsinks. If you must run AMS, drop a heatsink, 1 ton of ammo, a jumpjet (or another half ton of ammo) and up the engine to a XL255. Also, stripping leg armor on a light is never a good idea. I'd rather run 1 head armor that strip a point from my legs.

This is does the same thing and is far better at it: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5722eb1b5983bef

If you're willing to drop AMS I'd go with this: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b39668e8c96f0ee

[Escef]

Xiphias, on 21 December 2017 - 08:57 PM, said:

That thing is way too slow for a light. You'd be better off taking an Urban mech at that point for the extra armor and you have an excessive amount of AMS ammo. You're also missing ferro or at the very least light ferro because of all of those external heatsinks. If you must run AMS, drop a heatsink, 1 ton of ammo, a jumpjet (or another half ton of ammo) and up the engine to a XL255. Also, stripping leg armor on a light is never a good idea. I'd rather run 1 head armor that strip a point from my legs.

This is does the same thing and is far better at it: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5722eb1b5983bef

If you're willing to drop AMS I'd go with this: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b39668e8c96f0ee

It's kinda funny that I was about to suggest just about the same thing. Though, I would also say that at least trying an ERLL instead of the straight LL might be worth it. The heat sinks can handle it.

[Xiphias]

Escef, on 22 December 2017 - 05:11 AM, said:

It's kinda funny that I was about to suggest just about the same thing. Though, I would also say that at least trying an ERLL instead of the straight LL might be worth it. The heat sinks can handle it.

I actually considered swapping the LL to an ERLL on that build, the extra range could be nice for poking. I kept it as is just because the range syncs up pretty nicely between the LL and the ERMLs.

Fun fact, both the LL (3.1s) and the ERLL (3.4s) have a shorter cooldown than the ERML (4s) and the ML (3.5s). That just seems off to me.

[Jonathan8883]

The large lasers only do around double the damage at a substantially longer range for quintuple the weight. I don't mind the faster CD on a much heavier & bulkier weapons system.