87 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

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Actually, laservomit is the most impacted by this. Laservomit requires critslots... because heatsinks. Low tonnage-to-slot ratios.

but you can still fit plenty of heatsinks so I dont really understand your point at all

I can make a balius with 2 CERLL, 4-5 CERML, and still have more DHS than any IS mech

itll have the same speed and armor as a linebacker, with a smaller frontal profile, high mounted weapons, and the ability to sidestrafe. while being twice as hard to leg.

great idea lets add this magical pony mech to the game, because linebacker rushes arnt stupid enough

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Compared to a mech with full hand/lower actuators a quad loses 12 slots (6 for each arm converted to a leg).

Compared to a mech with no hands or LAAs you lose 16 slots (8 per arm replaced with a leg).

yeah but the balius has a 390 engine so it makes up for crit slot loss by putting a lot of the DHS internally

any quad that can take a huge engine will do so in order to gain additional heat sinks, and theyll pay for the huge engine by using lightweight weapons like lasers.

Edited by Khobai, 27 December 2017 - 12:21 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

And i was wondering why i had trouble sleeping this night

I love you guys.

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 27 December 2017 - 12:16 AM.

[Tarogato]

Khobai, on 27 December 2017 - 12:06 AM, said:

but you can still fit plenty of heatsinks so I dont really understand your point at all

I can make a balius with 2 CERLL, 4 CERML, and still have more DHS than any IS mech

itll have the same speed and armor as a linebacker, with a smaller frontal profile, high mounted weapons, and the ability to sidestrafe. while being twice as hard to leg.

Actually, that build with max armour and a TC added will have 1.47 spare tons unused with all slots filled. It's only 15 cDHS.

Compare that to a Linebacker, which gets 20 cDHS. Also, we should be comparing DPS between Clan and IS, not heatsink count, but for giggles, a max engine IS heavy running the same build can get 21 DHS if you're willing to go XL (19 with LE325). So no... the Balius doesn't "get more DHS than any IS mech."

Edited by Tarogato, 27 December 2017 - 12:23 AM.

[Khobai]

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Actually, that build with max armour and a TC added will have 1.47 spare tons unused with all slots filled. It's only 15 cDHS.

and how many heatsinks do you think an IS mech gets with a 390 engine?

its still better than any IS mech

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if you're willing to go XL

LOL ISXL

is that supposed to be a joke? because ISXL is a joke.

balius super magical pony mech > IS 65 ton mech trying to do the same thing

Edited by Khobai, 27 December 2017 - 12:26 AM.

[Tarogato]

Khobai, on 27 December 2017 - 12:22 AM, said:

and how many heatsinks do you think an IS mech gets with a 390 engine?

Because running a 390 engine on a 65-ton mech is an outrageous waste of tonnage? I seem to remember people complaining about the Linebacker being a bad mech when it first arrived with no substantial quirks.

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its still better than any IS mech

Not better than any IS mech. But yes better than an IS mech running the same oversized engine. But this is a thread about quads. So try making a 65-ton IS quad with a 390 engine. What you're harping on about is not quad balance, but Clan/IS balance, which is for another topic/thread altogether. =P

[Khobai]

a 390 LFE is like 40+ tons

no IS 65 ton mech can take that and still have the same loadout as a Balius

its not physically possible, the tonnage isnt there

and using an ISXL is just LOL, its not at all the same thing as a CXL

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Because running a 390 engine on a 65-ton mech is an outrageous waste of tonnage?

yes because the linebacker is clearly the worst heavy mech in the game. lololol.

the linebacker works fine. just like the balius would work fine.

its the power of CXL combined with CFF and CES that makes it work. and the super light weight and high alpha of clan laser vomit.

IS just cant do the same thing... their LFE isnt as good. Their FF and ES take up twice the crit slots. Their DHS take up more crit slots too.


is the balius as good as the linebacker though? it depends.

youre giving up 4-5 DHS in exchange for 4 legs instead of two. its much harder to leg than a linebacker.

but youre also getting a smaller frontal profile, high mounted lasers, and the ability to sidestrafe.

the balius could potentially end up being the ultimate midrange laser vomit poking mech.

Edited by Khobai, 27 December 2017 - 12:51 AM.

[Tarogato]

Khobai, on 27 December 2017 - 12:37 AM, said:

a 390 LFE is like 40+ tons

no IS 65 ton mech can take that and still have the same loadout as a Balius

its not physically possible, the tonnage isnt there

Yes. Again, because Clan vs IS tech. Again, slightly off-topic here, that has nothing to do with quads.

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yes because the linebacker is clearly the worst heavy mech in the game. lololol.

the linebacker works fine. just like the balius would work fine.

Yeah, the Balius might work fine, but the Linebacker will be better unless the Balius is over-quirked. Consider that maybe a contributing factor to the Linebacker working fine... is that it gets +12.9 to each torso and +17.5 to each leg after skill tree. Plus Linebacker rushes are good in FP because rushing 12 of any fast mech is effective in FP - it's effectively a counter to focus fire.

Now... of course, the question is... would the Balius be better than the Linebacker? No. Builds on the Balius are weaker than the Linebacker's builds - generally lacking in heatsinks. Also, the Balius has a very large side profile with no shield arms, and it's one of those quads that doesn't get the benefit of shield legs. So I think the Balius would be very fragile, and it will also need offensive quirks to offset its lack of crit slots.

In fact, I would go so far as to say I don't think any quad designs have the potential to be at the top of the meta without substantial quirks. Some designs are really quite good, but none of them will break the game on their own.

[Khobai]

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Yes. Again, because Clan vs IS tech. Again, slightly off-topic here, that has nothing to do with quads.

it has everything to do with quads

since quads benefit more from clan tech than battlemechs do

because quads having less crit slots makes clan tech taking up less crits even more valuable

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would the Balius be better than the Linebacker? No. Builds on the Balius are weaker than the Linebacker's builds - generally lacking in heatsinks.

heatsinks arnt the only thing that matters though.

its harder to kill by legging, a smaller frontal profile, super high hardpoints, and the ability to side strafe

its more like a sidegrade to the linebacker

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Also, the Balius has a very large side profile

but quads can sidestrafe so it shouldnt have to expose its side profile.

its frontal profile would be about the same as a medium mech

honestly it all depends on how good sidestrafing is. if it lets the balius get in and out of cover faster than a battlemech it will be better at midrange poking.

Edited by Khobai, 27 December 2017 - 01:19 AM.

[Tarogato]

Khobai, on 27 December 2017 - 12:37 AM, said:

but youre also getting a smaller frontal profile, high mounted lasers, and the ability to sidestrafe.
the balius could potentially end up being the ultimate midrange laser vomit poking mech.

Khobai, on 27 December 2017 - 01:05 AM, said:

but quads can sidestrafe so it shouldnt have to expose its side profile.
its frontal profile would be about the same as a medium mech

Yes, the frontal profile might be like a medium mech. But so is its offensive capability. In fact, a HBK-IIC-A would out-trade a Balius. The Hunchie gets more weapons AND more heatsinks, and actually higher mounts (the Balius has some of the lowest mounts of any of the quadruped designs). In fact, I can run your build on a Jenner IIC and it's actually viable. (you can even get away with 2x cHLL + 4x cERML on a Jenner IIC)

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youre giving up 4-5 DHS in exchange for 4 legs instead of two.

Fine, you've had me going long enough...

Your 2x cERLL + 4x cERML:

Linebacker, 20 cDHS
3.87 sustained DPS
130 damage before overheat

Balius, 15 cDHS
3.04 sustained DPS
98 damage before overheat


The Balius loses out on 21% DPS running the same build. That's substantial. It's 3.50 dissipation versus 2.75. In order for the Balius to compete with the Linebacker on this one build, it would need a 27% heat dissipation quirk. This comparison, although with slightly varying numbers, is applicable to pretty much every quadruped build vs its bipedal counterpart.

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its much harder to leg than a linebacker.

Harder to leg, but much easier to side torso. And before you retort again, "but small front profile when trading", remember that the Balius is trading with comparatively weaker payload, and being flanked is a thing that happens constantly in this game. If your goal is to trade, you would not take a 65-tonner running a 390 engine in the first place. You would take less than a 340, you would take more weapons, and more heatsinks.

There's actually a better example for what you're trying to argue. I'm waiting for you to realise it. =P




Anyways, thank you for helping make my case for me. Most people argue that quads would not be viable in mechwarrior, therefore not worth including. Here you are submitting that they would be overpowered. Most entertaining...

Edited by Tarogato, 27 December 2017 - 01:36 AM.

[Dogstar]

This was a fabulous post Tarogato, thank you for all you hard work.

It really highlights what a short-sighted, get-rich-quick, visionless company PGI is.

[Antares102]

Juodas Varnas, on 27 December 2017 - 12:16 AM, said:

And i was wondering why i had trouble sleeping this night

I love you guys.

Wow it took you an entire page to respond!

Kudos to the OP!
Tarogato really put a lot of work into compiling all this Juodas-p0rn.... ehm... Quadruped information.

IMO quads would only work if they had some sort of 360° turret on top.
Most of the designs wouldnt allow for a lot of torso twist.

Edited by Antares102, 27 December 2017 - 03:48 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

Antares102, on 27 December 2017 - 03:42 AM, said:

IMO quads would only work if they had some sort of 360° turret on top.
Most of the designs wouldnt allow for a lot of torso twist.

I'm still in the camp of 'no torso-twist but more traditional FPS control scheme'.

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 27 December 2017 - 03:57 AM.

[Ovion]

The6thMessenger, on 26 December 2017 - 11:22 PM, said:

WAAAAAT?

Do you have any other photos for reference? Cause i'm looking at the 3025 Goliath, and i swear that literally fits the "Tank with Legs". I don't mind it looking like a stalker with 360 degree turn.

Of course as opposed of others, maybe we don't have to make it 360 degrees, just something reasonably wide.

I've got these pics of the Wellington Quad mech I made, which might help.

[knight-of-ni]

So what happens when a locust camps underneath?

Something like this comes to mind...



Ouchy.
In a knock-down-less environment, how would one prevent this?

Not trying to burst anyone's quadruped bubble. Rather I'm trying to stimulate ideas.

[Juodas Varnas]

knight-of-ni, on 27 December 2017 - 08:11 AM, said:

So what happens when a locust camps underneath?

Something like this comes to mind...



Ouchy.
In a knock-down-less environment, how would one prevent this?

Not trying to burst anyone's quadruped bubble. Rather I'm trying to stimulate ideas.

By... Not allowing them to get between the legs? Pretty much most of the quads have either legs too close to one another for that to happen (or the mech's body is too low to the ground).

I mean from what i remember the mechs don't use very accurate collision models in MWO. For mech on mech action, they're basically giant walking bubbles from what i remember.

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 27 December 2017 - 08:39 AM.

[jss78]

All I'll say is I'd love that quad concept from the OP in the game. At this point PGI's hard-pressed to produce a 'mech pack I'd be interested to pre-order, but this one -- hell yes.

Juodas Varnas, on 27 December 2017 - 03:57 AM, said:

I'm still in the camp of 'no torso-twist but more traditional FPS control scheme'.

This seems like a simple, sensible solution to me too.

With the basic geometry, I figure they'd become these fire-support platforms with a small profile and good weapon placement, but disadvantage in close-quarters mobility.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 26 December 2017 - 11:51 PM, said:

not really a downside when youre going to use all laser vomit

Do you remember how many slots that IS DHS take up? No laser vomit for you.

[Tarogato]

Ovion, on 27 December 2017 - 07:09 AM, said:

I've got these pics of the Wellington Quad mech I made, which might help.

Spoiler

Oooh, nice work, mate!

Do you still have the file for that? I'm kinda curious how it would look it you shrunk the legs in the Y, and stretched them in the X and Z. So just shorter, but fatter, to better match the proportions seen in MWO assaults.


Here's a vague maybe 70% of the way there, but still not quite where I envision it... or maybe it's enough? I dunno.

If you could show me front and side profiles of the model with the changes I dig, I could do a pseudo-volumetric comparison and get it actually scaled correctly. The following is just eyeballing guess... it might well actually supposed to be smaller than this:







Hrmmm, nah... it might need to be even shorter and stockier than that. The Goliath is the most troublesome of the immediately MWO-viable quads. With the parallel legs, long "wheelbase", and rather tall stature, it would look absolutely ridiculous on inclines... it would require IK. Or else its design needs to change substantially...

Edited by Tarogato, 27 December 2017 - 12:31 PM.

[Juodas Varnas]

FupDup, on 27 December 2017 - 10:02 AM, said:

Do you remember how many slots that IS DHS take up? No laser vomit for you.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 27 December 2017 - 10:02 AM, said:

Do you remember how many slots that IS DHS take up? No laser vomit for you.

balius is a clan mech

uses CDHS

which was kindve my whole point that quads heavily favor clan tech

because quads having less crit slots means clan tech taking up less crit slots is worth way more


SUPER CLAN PONY MECH WITH RAINBOW LASERS

Edited by Khobai, 27 December 2017 - 11:13 AM.