65 replies to this topic

[Navid A1]

Troa Barton, on 27 December 2017 - 12:20 PM, said:

I agree with everything you said except not giving the Boars Head armor quirks, that doesn't make sense.
I would also propose changing the armor and structure nodes to have a larger benefit for assaults than they currently do.

I didn't?

I'm pretty sure I wrote AS7-All variants to receive armor quirks in my suggested graph.

also in the text:

Quote

Atlas: Nearly EVERYTHING is wrong with the current state of this mech. All of the weapon hardpoints are low mounted which should grant this mech armor quirks (armor quirks for all variants).

Are you looking at the grapth showing the current state of those mechs?

[MischiefSC]

Honestly I'm all for OP original sughestions as posted. Theyre reasonable bordering on conservative and are not making any of these mechs top meta. Just worth taking.

[UnofficialOperator]

Stop buffing assaults and bow to our heavy overlords please

PS: heavies lead the push, lights and mediums poke, assaults mop up kills. Best arrangement ever.

Edited by UnofficialOperator, 27 December 2017 - 05:04 PM.

[HammerMaster]

FupDup, on 27 December 2017 - 01:20 PM, said:

Well, if lights are going to lose against assaults, who else will the assaults lose against? And yes, the assaults do need to lose against something, you aren't allowed to always win. And no, saying "an even bigger assault" is not a valid answer. Every mech of every size has to have something that can act as a predator against it.

Game balance has to be kept in mind here, this isn't just a singleplayer playground where you get to live out your power fantasy of being the big invincible killing machine.

Battletech doesn't work that way. But people keep thinking it is something else. Sure when you play rock paper scissors. Those rules apply.

And not for nothing. I don't care to be invincible overlord. I like my medium mechs. And Battletech wise. 90 percent of the population should be running lights and mediums. But that's another thread.

Edited by HammerMaster, 27 December 2017 - 05:26 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

HammerMaster, on 27 December 2017 - 05:25 PM, said:

Battletech doesn't work that way. But people keep thinking it is something else. Sure when you play rock paper scissors. Those rules apply.

And not for nothing. I don't care to be invincible overlord. I like my medium mechs. And Battletech wise. 90 percent of the population should be running lights and mediums. But that's another thread.

MechWarrior is not, and never has been, BattleTech. Especially not the multiplayer portion.

You'll get your fix in MW5.

[Khobai]

Quote

Battletech doesn't work that way. But people keep thinking it is something else. Sure when you play rock paper scissors. Those rules apply.

Actually it does work that way. In tabletop, a light with initiative can very easily jumpjet into an assault's back where it cant shoot it.

Spiders are notorious for doing that in tabletop, because the pulse laser bonuses offset the penalty for jumpjetting.

I mean its not quite rock-paper-scissors. Nothing really hard counters an assault. Its more of a soft counter. But if anything should soft counter assaults it should be lights.

Edited by Khobai, 27 December 2017 - 06:08 PM.

[HammerMaster]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 December 2017 - 05:29 PM, said:

MechWarrior is not, and never has been, BattleTech. Especially not the multiplayer portion.

You'll get your fix in MW5.

Battletech truly is dead then.

[justcallme A S H]

The other issue which is still as yet, unresolved, is the Spirit Bear and it's mobilty vs MASC.

It was totally broken with Skill Maze / Desync and to date has not been fixed.
MASC is almost useless on this thing due to totally borked base mobilty/acceleration. It means the SB cannot do the only job it is good at - being a line breaker.

The SB was basically an Atlas without the firepower/armour but it had the speed. Now currently it has no speed because MASC is totally up the creek on the mech.

Yeonne Greene, on 27 December 2017 - 05:29 PM, said:

MechWarrior is not, and never has been, BattleTech. Especially not the multiplayer portion.

You'll get your fix in MW5.

And yet 5 years on the "Battletech / TT" value-brigade are still keeping proper balance from being achieved.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 28 December 2017 - 05:16 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

HammerMaster, on 28 December 2017 - 04:19 PM, said:

Battletech truly is dead then.

Been dead for decades, if that's your take, because I wasn't just referring to MWO.

[Troa Barton]

Navid A1, on 27 December 2017 - 04:13 PM, said:

I didn't?

I'm pretty sure I wrote AS7-All variants to receive armor quirks in my suggested graph.

also in the text:


Are you looking at the grapth showing the current state of those mechs?

My mistake upon re-reading you do not state excluding the BH, in that case I agree with everything you've said in your OP.

[Troa Barton]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 December 2017 - 03:06 PM, said:

No.

My argument is that too much durability just turns every match into a brawl-push because you've got so much armor on the field that low-endurance weapons can't get enough damage out to stop the roll.

AKA, it's just as boring as it is now.

No one 'Mech should have the value of multiples.

It is simply asinine.

I think you're under the impression that I actually want to double the durability of all assaults.
For the record I don't, closer to ~15% increase combined at the top end with very minor mobility increases.
I still want lights to be "the counter" to assaults. If you wish to maintain that relationship you can't give assaults too much mobility, and a little mobility is insufficient to counter all the power creep assaults have weathered. Therefor you also increase their armor, the easiest way to do this is simply to increase the percentage torso speed, structure, and armor quirks give assaults.
The "top end" I mentioned earlier would be for mechs like the Atlas D with all of the survival nodes unlocked.

In the case of the AS7 S, D-DC, BH they would need to be individually revisited by PGI for their base quirks to bring them in line with the other Atlas'.

As far as mechs being worth multiples how many mediums do you need to carry the ballistic firepower of an Annihilator? 2-3 Shadowhawks? Which is easier to kill in a believable scenario? Mechs are already worth multiples linearly as far as firepower is concerned.

[MischiefSC]

justcallme A S H, on 28 December 2017 - 04:44 PM, said:

The other issue which is still as yet, unresolved, is the Spirit Bear and it's mobilty vs MASC.

It was totally broken with Skill Maze / Desync and to date has not been fixed.
MASC is almost useless on this thing due to totally borked base mobilty/acceleration. It means the SB cannot do the only job it is good at - being a line breaker.

The SB was basically an Atlas without the firepower/armour but it had the speed. Now currently it has no speed because MASC is totally up the creek on the mech.



And yet 5 years on the "Battletech / TT" value-brigade are still keeping proper balance from being achieved.

Here's how Battletech played -

One-shot luck crit kills and cripples all the time. Through armor. Max range with AC2s plinking out golden BB rolls and hoping to get lucky would be the meta.

You Jump Jet in your mech or walk up a steep hill, fail pilot check, fall, crit your leg ammo and blow your mech up.

Accuracy was so bad that you had a 50/50 chance of hitting a mech, anywhere, with a medium lasers at 120m.

Clan pilots were at a bare minimum 33% better than IS pilots. At a minimum. So only the top 20% or so of players can play Clans?

Clan pilots, save for the absolute very best, didn't get to choose their own loadouts or even mech. It was decided by their leaders as a result of the bidding.

IS pilots were lucky to own even 1 mech and customizing them costed a fortune.

Huh. Funny how none of that comes up. Just a bunch of cherry-picking 'Yes but Lore says I should totally have all the following advantages' without ANY of the associated negatives with it.

I still play Tabletop. Translating it directly to a PvP FPS is an absolutely **** idea that would (and largely has) resulted in terrible, broken, unenjoyable and screwy mechanics.

Make a good game. Include lore when it fits in with a good game. When it doesn't, treat it like players treat the above examples.

[HammerMaster]

MischiefSC, on 30 December 2017 - 12:33 AM, said:

Here's how Battletech played -

One-shot luck crit kills and cripples all the time. Through armor. Max range with AC2s plinking out golden BB rolls and hoping to get lucky would be the meta.

You Jump Jet in your mech or walk up a steep hill, fail pilot check, fall, crit your leg ammo and blow your mech up.

Accuracy was so bad that you had a 50/50 chance of hitting a mech, anywhere, with a medium lasers at 120m.

Clan pilots were at a bare minimum 33% better than IS pilots. At a minimum. So only the top 20% or so of players can play Clans?

Clan pilots, save for the absolute very best, didn't get to choose their own loadouts or even mech. It was decided by their leaders as a result of the bidding.

IS pilots were lucky to own even 1 mech and customizing them costed a fortune.

Huh. Funny how none of that comes up. Just a bunch of cherry-picking 'Yes but Lore says I should totally have all the following advantages' without ANY of the associated negatives with it.

I still play Tabletop. Translating it directly to a PvP FPS is an absolutely **** idea that would (and largely has) resulted in terrible, broken, unenjoyable and screwy mechanics.

Make a good game. Include lore when it fits in with a good game. When it doesn't, treat it like players treat the above examples.

False.
Hilarious fails are just as satisfying as excellent wins.

[Y E O N N E]

HammerMaster, on 30 December 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

False.
Hilarious fails are just as satisfying as excellent wins.

Among friends.

Among strangers both trying to win, it's frustrating.

[MischiefSC]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 December 2017 - 03:06 PM, said:

Among friends.

Among strangers both trying to win, it's frustrating.

MWOWC - decided by a golden BB friendly fire TAC and failed lot check walking up a hill. Yeah, that would be great.

However being able to literally tell every sing Clan lore purist that they have to play at a comp tier to get to play Clans would be worth it.

[Kangarad]

could we maybe not overdo it with armour bonusses on everything ? percentage whise and size whise assaults allready suck enough. theres no reason to add some armour skills for what is essentialy negligible shielding with the damage that is being thrown arround when assaults do not benefit.


the skil tree needs to be reworked to actualy be good for assaults in some degree, making stuff beyond firepower actualy worth taking.

this buffing everyones armour is just making weapons that use ammo, such as ****** lrms even less worth using.

[Y E O N N E]

Kangarad, on 30 December 2017 - 04:08 PM, said:

could we maybe not overdo it with armour bonusses on everything ? percentage whise and size whise assaults allready suck enough. theres no reason to add some armour skills for what is essentialy negligible shielding with the damage that is being thrown arround when assaults do not benefit.


the skil tree needs to be reworked to actualy be good for assaults in some degree, making stuff beyond firepower actualy worth taking.

this buffing everyones armour is just making weapons that use ammo, such as ****** lrms even less worth using.

As long as laser volleys ranging from 64 to 94 are the norm, you can't get around needing more durability to make this game anything other than a poke-fest. Hell, even some of the brawl volleys are disgustingly huge, but at least there's more risk to it.

[Kangarad]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 December 2017 - 04:32 PM, said:

As long as laser volleys ranging from 64 to 94 are the norm, you can't get around needing more durability to make this game anything other than a poke-fest. Hell, even some of the brawl volleys are disgustingly huge, but at least there's more risk to it.

yes but 20 armour does nothing even with the skils stacked ontop of that (especialy when said skils are reduced for assaults)

and 50+ armour bonus is a bit much even tho with teh continuous increase in damage we realy could ebnefit from another armour pass increasing armour exponential with wheight instead of linear.

[Y E O N N E]

Kangarad, on 30 December 2017 - 04:40 PM, said:

yes but 20 armour does nothing even with the skils stacked ontop of that (especialy when said skils are reduced for assaults)

and 50+ armour bonus is a bit much even tho with teh continuous increase in damage we realy could ebnefit from another armour pass increasing armour exponential with wheight instead of linear.

It depends on the geo and agility of the 'Mech in question. 15-20-15 across torsos that can redirect a laser blast or split an SRM/LBX volley helps a lot. 'Mechs that have issues spreading (e.g. KGC, DWF) need even more, measured against their own firepower potential.

[MischiefSC]

Assassin vs Shadow Cat or Viper. Orion vs WHR.

Geometry is a big deal.