30 replies to this topic

[CCC Dober]

Uri Brauer, on 24 July 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

...
But they're not perfectly balanced with the good old medium laser.

This particular laser has never been balanced very well. DHS are not at fault here. It's the high damage, low heat, 1 ton weapon that is causing the problem ... ever since. Gotta keep the perspective here.

[Bishop Steiner]

CCC Dober, on 29 July 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

This particular laser has never been balanced very well. DHS are not at fault here. It's the high damage, low heat, 1 ton weapon that is causing the problem ... ever since. Gotta keep the perspective here.

Sad but true, though I would rather have some decent damage from them than the weak sisters lasers from MW4. The most "broken" weapon of all time being the Clan ER Medium Laser..... essentially being a Large Laser, with better heat curve for 1 ton. (ER M.Laser: range: 15, Dmg: 7, Heat: 5, vs, L.Laser; range 15, dmg: 8, heat 8)

[Bishop Steiner]

Actually, Double Heat-Sinks being "broken" is kind of the point, the grail of what made Star League and soon, Clan tech so awe inspiring to those who faced off against it with Level 1 tech.If you think just because a medium laser boat is dangerous, Double Heat Sinks should go, I always found that tactics countered it, as you can usually slash the mech to pieces with long range fire. Also, while total damage is high, it tends tobe scattered across many locations, compared to a large hit in one place.

While there are certainly issues with the TT rules, generally speaking, if one looked and thought about it, there are (mostly) balancing factors at play.

The other point being.. if everyone has the same access, what does it mattter?

[CCC Dober]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 July 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

Actually, Double Heat-Sinks being "broken" is kind of the point, the grail of what made Star League and soon, Clan tech so awe inspiring to those who faced off against it with Level 1 tech.If you think just because a medium laser boat is dangerous, Double Heat Sinks should go, I always found that tactics countered it, as you can usually slash the mech to pieces with long range fire. Also, while total damage is high, it tends tobe scattered across many locations, compared to a large hit in one place.

While there are certainly issues with the TT rules, generally speaking, if one looked and thought about it, there are (mostly) balancing factors at play.

The other point being.. if everyone has the same access, what does it mattter?

I think the trouble comes with the way the small and medium energy weapons interact with the heat system. DHS would double their effectiveness by default without adding any heatsinks at all, so there's that. The potential for abuse in terms of laser boating and worse, flamer boating, is there. While DHS are not responsible, they add to or highlight the problem. I'm not a dev, but specific problems with certain weapons can be solved without decreasing the functionality of others or components altogether. What I keep reading lately are 'shotgun-solutions', which do more harm than good. Just my impression.

Ditto on the ERML. It's quite a monster but there is some hope that PGI can tame it. The implementation of lasers dealing damage over time is promising and could be modified even further. Might even bring heat generation over time into the equation, which could help to deal with boating. Same goes for flamers and other assorted griefer weapons.

Edited by CCC Dober, 29 July 2012 - 11:17 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

CCC Dober, on 29 July 2012 - 08:58 AM, said:

I think the trouble comes with the way the small and medium energy weapons interact with the heat system. DHS would double their effectiveness by default without adding any heatsinks at all, so there's that. The potential for abuse in terms of laser boating and worse, flamer boating, is there. While DHS are not responsible, they add to or highlight the problem. I'm not a dev, but specific problems with certain weapons can be solved without decreasing the functionality of others or components altogether. What I keep reading lately are 'shotgun-solutions', which do more harm than good. Just my impression.

Ditto on the ERML. It's quite a monster but there is some hope that PGI can tame it. The implementation of lasers dealing damage over time is promising and could be modified even further. Might even bring heat generation over time into the equation, which could help to deal with boating. Same goes for flamers and other assorted griefer weapons.

Good points, but one thing that I think already helps tame them, over the pen and paper version, is rate of fire, or cycle rate, whichever you prefer to call it. In TT play, pretty much everything can be shot once a turn, while the high RoF on the Mediums seem like an extra benefit over the Large, for instance, it also starts to pump your heat to staggering levels far faster than the heat sinks can cope. Even in MW3, when using a Nova, loaded with IS Medium Lasers to reduce heat load, I remember having to chain fire them, so that I would not put on too much heat, and basically, it let me cycle thru all 10 lasers in about 10 seconds, or a little less, but even then the heat was creeping up. And If I link fired them together? Shutdown city. (Actually, I think MGs were more broken than M.Lasers in MW3, which is still the closest to TT play, as you could shred an Atlas right fast, once you got close enough, if you mounted a ton of them)

Are they perfect? Heck no,I just honestly don't think they are as brokenas people want to act.

[Deceptor]

I put this one on the other thread having the same discussion, but I didn't specify, so I will do so here in an effort to show how important this topic really is. Why not just pluck half of those "freebie" heatsinks off when you "upgrade"? Keeps the same standard heat reduction, removes an amount of tonnage that will help allow for bigger energy weapons (which I feel was the original intent of the technology in the first place- reaching the next class of weapons), and leaves less room for boating since you will have to install more of them. And it's perfectly lore-worthy: you just can't fit that many of them in the engine compartment, which is presumably where they were in the first place, installed with the engine to cool the engine. Tada! I'm a genius.

Yeah but seriously don't let it bother you that I feel that way sometimes. I'm just too excited to wait for my next paycheck to stay away from this...

[RedHairDave]

dhs is going to make it possible to have large weapons in numbers, its not a bad thing, it will take the average enguagement range of 6 inches and make it a more respectable 600meters most likely. right now its not efficent to fight at range with energy, the big guns dont do the damage and over heat you.

with dhs, they wont be so bad, and people can use them, everyone is saying that there is no range combat, this will help that

[gilliam]

You forget that Endo Steel and Ferro Fibruous take up 14 slots each. Lighter mechs are going to want one of the other (because good luck fitting both), and XL engine mechs are probably going to become popular as well. That doesn't leave a whole lot of space for DHS.

[CCC Dober]

@Deceptor
That's all nice and fun, but keep in mind that a proposition like that would render double heatsinks largely ineffective and the affected Mechs/variants by extension. The heatsinks and crits necessary to make up for the difference in heat capacity will cause all sorts of bottlenecks on energy dependent Mechs. Those are mostly riding the red line with DHS and would suffer the most but not exclusively, because even ballistic Mechs depend on backup weapons that generate heat. Can't really say I'd be too thrilled about the prospect. It'd be 'shutdown city' to say it with Bishops words.

[Deceptor]

Ok. I then reinstate my previous assessment that this situation is too complex and widespread to have a solution that is viable without the extensive tweaking and playtesting that only the Dev's can provide. Good luck to those guys.

[Natasha Kerensky]

DHS taking up 3 crit slots is fine.