58 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

Dago Red, on 02 January 2018 - 11:09 PM, said:

Or DBZ beam struggles!

Dr. Octagonapus! BLARGGGG!

[Davegt27]

I think so many changes

and the active nerfs have made the game not very fun

I wish they would take a break for a bit and let people get used
to some sort of game stability

[Tarogato]

Dago Red, on 02 January 2018 - 11:09 PM, said:

Or DBZ beam struggles!

[Vellron2005]

The6thMessenger, on 02 January 2018 - 01:54 AM, said:

With my discussion on my other thread, Dakota1000 told me that perhaps PGI was right about Medium Lasers being too effective at their weight -- i mean why would people take AC5 for 8 tons and requires ammo over medium lasers? I mean yes there's the range, the cooldown, the duration, but at the same weight you could have boat 8 medium lasers and dealt more damage, and compensate with good heat management right?

The cooldown nerf is rather heavy handed, but the medium lasers deserving of nerf however at something else, I feel that such is also applicable with larger lasers by the same logic. Why use AC5 when you can use Large Lasers? etc.

I think that the nature of Lasers -- being hit-scan, makes them inherently easier to use, and make other weapons just trivial to use, that's why they result in the poke meta, and Laser Vomit being predominantly effective.

What if we increase Durations accross the board? This doesn't mean that we shouldn't buff the other weapons too, however i feel that it's prudent to provide a complete global nerf of Laser Durations to give way for other weapons without the slippery slope of powercreeping.

The total duration + Cooldown should remain the same though. Previously, C-ERLL before duration buff seems to be kind of unwieldy, but maybe that's just because other weapons on offer par better.

e.g.



And using my baseline, I'll build the other laser types around it. Damage/Tick is fairly simmiliar between Clan and IS. The Pulse lasers and Heavy lasers have different damage/tick though.



Those values are just an idea, they are most likely not balanced, but that's the spirit of what i expect to see.

If you simply nerf all the lasers by increasing their duration, it's not gonna make you take 1 AC5 over several medium lasers. It's just gonna make TTK a little longer and lasers more frustrating to play.

Bad idea.

Lasers will always be a better choice than ballistics, because of the high tonnage requirements + ammo dependency.. Lasers require little tonnage and extra heat sinks, but you can't run out of ammo.. so they will always be a better choice.

There's no point in nerfing them, it will only frustrate people. Many laser weapons already have ridiculously long burn time duration, and unlike ballistics, that makes them spread damage like crazy..

So, again.. bad idea to nerf them further.

If anything, some of them need a buff..

Also, bring back LRM lock-on arcs to 45%!!

[The6thMessenger]

Vellron2005, on 03 January 2018 - 12:12 AM, said:

If you simply nerf all the lasers by increasing their duration, it's not gonna make you take 1 AC5 over several medium lasers. It's just gonna make TTK a little longer and lasers more frustrating to play.

Bad idea.

Lasers will always be a better choice than ballistics, because of the high tonnage requirements + ammo dependency.. Lasers require little tonnage and extra heat sinks, but you can't run out of ammo.. so they will always be a better choice.

There's no point in nerfing them, it will only frustrate people. Many laser weapons already have ridiculously long burn time duration, and unlike ballistics, that makes them spread damage like crazy..

So, again.. bad idea to nerf them further.

If anything, some of them need a buff..

Admittedly, Ballistics are in need of buff. But then it would also be sensible to nerf the Lasers too. I'm pretty sure it will increase TTK, because as a whole, the game now does vaporizes a component less faster.

Also it's the ergonomic gripes i was aiming for so that there's a struggle to use Lasers precisely because they are easy to use, easy to slap on a mech. By making them frustrating at least slightly, just enough that you give people incentive to invest on heavier equipment that is less frustrating to use. Then again, people just boat lasers anyways, so the damage/tick still reasonably high.

2.00s for a 15 damage Clan Heavy Laser, i find that to be alright. The Clan ER Medium pushed to 1.45s, honestly that's fine by me.

If we just keep buffing, then it's just power creep -- do we really need to get to the point that damage reaches 3 digits and armor/structure reaches 4 digits. We have to nerf things too, and as frustrating as lasers become, at least ballistics can be a real sensible choice, and we won't go to that slippery slope.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 03 January 2018 - 12:37 AM.

[sycocys]

My opinion on lasers hasn't changed - They need to have a minimum range damage roll off, and much steeper slope to the beyond range roll-off.

This would solve most of the issue with boating a single laser type, or at the very least give them a meaningful disadvantage that can be used against people that boat a single type.

Duration lengths are good for distinguishing the different types in a certain range, but even lightsaber duration didn't bother clan erLL.

[lazorbeamz]

Reduce damage and increase duration yes. Hitscan makes them overpowered and useful by default even if they were bad in other aspects. They also provide insane alpha strike per ton. Also remove the ******** ballistic ghost heat.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 03 January 2018 - 11:38 AM.

[Xiphias]

The vast majority of light mechs are limited to energy weapons only and also depend on short durations to be able to jump in and out of combat quickly. Light mechs can't simply take ballistic weapons to make up the difference. Cooldown is okay, because lights are already decently heat limited, but duration is something they can't really afford. The last thing we need is another light mech nerf. They already killed the go to light weapon, SPLs, let's leave something that lights can do.

[Sunstruck]

Any adjustment should be very small and light handed. PGI constantly over does their changes. What they did to small pulse lasers was too much. I could understand a small nerf to Large Lasers but if too much could just ruin the game completely for clans.

[The6thMessenger]

Sunstruck, on 03 January 2018 - 02:55 PM, said:

Any adjustment should be very small and light handed. PGI constantly over does their changes. What they did to small pulse lasers was too much. I could understand a small nerf to Large Lasers but if too much could just ruin the game completely for clans.

And what is your acceptable level of nerf? Can we agree that the HLL, doing 15 damage -- hell even 18 damage per blast, with only 4 tons of weight, needs to be at 2.00s of duration?

Xiphias, on 03 January 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

The vast majority of light mechs are limited to energy weapons only and also depend on short durations to be able to jump in and out of combat quickly. Light mechs can't simply take ballistic weapons to make up the difference. Cooldown is okay, because lights are already decently heat limited, but duration is something they can't really afford. The last thing we need is another light mech nerf. They already killed the go to light weapon, SPLs, let's leave something that lights can do.

Sure, they are kind of disparaged, but that just means that we only need to increase the laser duration at such a level that Lights won't get ******.

I kinda only punished Clan large lasers a lot, and Clan Mediums, and even Clan ER Med is just at 1.45s from 1.35s.

The IS Medium and Large Laser is just 0.1s longer, i don't think IS is going to be skewered that much for such a difference especially when Clan is heavily skewered with their Large Lasers, and the global change. Add in their general Laser Duration quirks, and skill nodes. The ER ML at 1.0s from 0.9s, say -20% of COM-1B -- the new ERML would be at 0.8s laser duration, as opposed of 0.72s -- that's still pretty short right?

The SPLs are also adjusted, IS SPL back at it's original damage, while Clan SPL has exactly the same damage as the ER SL, but does it faster and less heat.

And then across the board nerf, that also means lights are harder to kill using lasers, they benefit from it because the glancing blows they receive that wither their armor is reduced. Add in their speed and mobility to flank -- admittedly only little to add with Urbie, Cougar, and Kitfox -- they have the capacity to make use of lasers safely than others.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 03 January 2018 - 03:54 PM.

[topgun505]

Increase duration? Have you SEEN the CHLL duration? The only reason anyone uses it at all is simply because it does nearly 20 damage. So it's an ok option for those mechs that only have a couple of E slots so cannot boat many lasers. But yeah ... increase the duration any longer and it would make it totally not viable.

[The6thMessenger]

topgun505, on 03 January 2018 - 05:49 PM, said:

Increase duration? Have you SEEN the CHLL duration? The only reason anyone uses it at all is simply because it does nearly 20 damage. So it's an ok option for those mechs that only have a couple of E slots so cannot boat many lasers. But yeah ... increase the duration any longer and it would make it totally not viable.

It will still deal 15 damage over 2.00s, that still sure as hell more powerful than IS counterpart. Likewise 0.1s wouldn't be that hard, i mean we've been on those durations before. C-ERLL was almost 1.5s long and we could still use it before but it was just the worse choice in comparison, the only difference now is that it wouldn't be bad compared to other choices.

[Brizna]

Weapons balance is not just a matter of weapon balance, it is also a question of mech balance, balance between hard point scarce mechs and those with abundant slots and also a question of light mechs versus those with plenty of weigth to spare. That is why the ML nerf (and SPL previously) were and still are so bad ideas. If you ask me if I'd prefer a game not built around all mechs being (ideally) balanced 1 to 1 I'd say yes, but that is not this game, this small arena game is all about killing the enemy team, there is no logistics that make expensive mechs hard to get, repair... and very little scouting, so if you nerf small weapons into oblivion you nerf light mechs so.

Anyway after Piranha is released small energy weapons and ballitics (MGs) are going to be nerfed -again- after that is done only the Piranha will remain.

[The6thMessenger]

Brizna, on 03 January 2018 - 09:01 PM, said:

if you nerf small weapons into oblivion you nerf light mechs so.

Both sides are nerfed and will be affected. The outgoing laser damage from a light might be stunted, but it should be canceled by the also reduced incoming laser damage. For the PPFLD vulnerability though, yeah i suppose lights would take a hit.

Also don't exaggerate, +0.2 and + 0.1s ain't "to oblivion", at least for IS. The Clan Heavy Med Laser got +0.35s.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 03 January 2018 - 09:13 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

The6thMessenger, on 03 January 2018 - 08:14 PM, said:

It will still deal 15 damage over 2.00s, that still sure as hell more powerful than IS counterpart. Likewise 0.1s wouldn't be that hard, i mean we've been on those durations before. C-ERLL was almost 1.5s long and we could still use it before but it was just the worse choice in comparison, the only difference now is that it wouldn't be bad compared to other choices.

Why would anyone ever use a HLL that deals 15 damage over 2 seconds when they could bring 3 IS ERML instead or 2-3 CERML? Why nerf the HLL in the first place when the ERMLs are just way more efficient? Issue is really only the pair of HLL+ERML putting out super high alphas. Alone both weapon systems aren't even registering on the balance issue scale.

Of course I also fundamentally disagree with your opinions on time to kill in this game and find the 78 damage laser alpha to be fine and even balanced. You underestimate poptarts heavily, they already demolish these super alpha laser builds, not to mention close range builds that just destroy the high alpha laser builds. They have counters are both extreme range and short range, they dominate in mid range.

This is once again why I advocate for actually buffing the underperformers. You only see lasers as highly overperforming, yet you don't understand the meta too well or understand how it already has its counters in the meta ecosystem in the form of ERLL/ERPPC builds, low exposure poptarts, and pushers who don't give the build time to cool.

Doing something like actually buffing the ballistics so that cooldowns were around half of what they are now then autocannons would have some ability to get in double the damage per trade against laser builds during the laser duration compared to their current values while also punishing those who poke slowly, for example the Deathstrike that carries the 4ERML,2HLL,2Gauss alpha. Buffing ballistics alone could heavily shift the meta to a situation in which these super high damage assault pokers just cannot survive poking, bringing back a system of assaults in power positions using ballistics, mediums and fast heavies firing high damage laser alphas but actually having to worry about the heat generation from them without gauss to fall back on, and poptarts peeking up to counter the ballistic builds in power positions.

Maybe we don't have to go crazy and half AC cooldowns off the bat, but they really are what need to be looked at and buffed, none of this nerfing laser nonsense that blindly demolishes all of the light weight classes.

[Brizna]

The6thMessenger, on 03 January 2018 - 09:09 PM, said:

Both sides are nerfed and will be affected. The outgoing laser damage from a light might be stunted, but it should be canceled by the also reduced incoming laser damage. For the PPFLD vulnerability though, yeah i suppose lights would take a hit.

Also don't exaggerate, +0.2 and + 0.1s ain't "to oblivion", at least for IS. The Clan Heavy Med Laser got +0.35s.

Nah, the side that relies only on small weapons gets nerfed more than the side that combines small with big guns and the side that has no alternative to small guns can't scape the nerf while the other can always move with the balance tides and remain competitive.

[Vellron2005]

I still think nerfing lasers is a bad idea.. and especially if the only reason is to promote ballistics, which is in my humble opinion, powerful enough.

Why is nobody suggesting nerfing lasers and ballistics to promote more people using LRMs?

Its stupid..

[The6thMessenger]

Dakota1000, on 03 January 2018 - 09:17 PM, said:

Why would anyone ever use a HLL that deals 15 damage over 2 seconds when they could bring 3 IS ERML instead or 2-3 CERML? Why nerf the HLL in the first place when the ERMLs are just way more efficient? Issue is really only the pair of HLL+ERML putting out super high alphas. Alone both weapon systems aren't even registering on the balance issue scale.

Limited hardpoints like Shadowcat, slightly more efficient damage/heat, and defeating ghost heat limit. You don't have to use every weapon, there's a time and place, depending on what role does one intend their mechs.

Dakota1000, on 03 January 2018 - 09:17 PM, said:

Of course I also fundamentally disagree with your opinions on time to kill in this game and find the 78 damage laser alpha to be fine and even balanced. You underestimate poptarts heavily, they already demolish these super alpha laser builds, not to mention close range builds that just destroy the high alpha laser builds. They have counters are both extreme range and short range, they dominate in mid range.

This is once again why I advocate for actually buffing the underperformers. You only see lasers as highly overperforming, yet you don't understand the meta too well or understand how it already has its counters in the meta ecosystem in the form of ERLL/ERPPC builds, low exposure poptarts, and pushers who don't give the build time to cool.

I never did underestimated them. You just assume it so. Just saying "you don't understand" is just you trying to dismiss me.

And i disagree that 78 alpha isn't balanced, not from 400m, not from only Clans. And whether Poptarts can defeat them, it's irrelevant, there are still a LOT of other weapons that couldn't. I don't contend that the rock-paper-scissors of weapons exists, it's simply not relevant. Sure, they are far more disparaged at outside their range bracket, but so what? They were supposed to be beaten outside of it yes? That's like every other weapon outside of SRM range.

Since we're dismissing each other, I say this: is just you not wanting you wanting to have your cake and eat it too, that despite balance all you care about is your pet mechs doing well.

That's not nice now is it?

You say that i don't understand the meta, yet you seem to forget that lasers can ********* their entirety of their damage accurately at a single point instantly because they are hitscan converging well if not perfectly, while ACs of the same mid-range orientation needs adequate lead and is less to converge properly, held-back by weight that AC boats are typically slower, and needs to sustain fire to maintain DPS. Yet the meta is about PPFLD, where you do your most damage at the shortest amount of exposure time.

Buff ballistics, but you still have people vomiting damage on one component, and fading afterwards, still the most sensible choice in the PPFLD meta.

Before you say "then buff the under performers", my answer is already "nerf the over performers".

Dakota1000, on 03 January 2018 - 09:17 PM, said:

Doing something like actually buffing the ballistics so that cooldowns were around half of what they are now then autocannons would have some ability to get in double the damage per trade against laser builds during the laser duration compared to their current values while also punishing those who poke slowly, for example the Deathstrike that carries the 4ERML,2HLL,2Gauss alpha.

Or you know, increasing the duration also increases the window time of retaliation for the ballistics. I'm not saying that we shouldn't buff ballistics, i want to buff ballistics too, but it's also sensible to reduce the performance of the lasers too, so that we don't have to buff ballistics like crazy.

Dakota1000, on 03 January 2018 - 09:17 PM, said:

Buffing ballistics alone could heavily shift the meta to a situation in which these super high damage assault pokers just cannot survive poking, bringing back a system of assaults in power positions using ballistics, mediums and fast heavies firing high damage laser alphas but actually having to worry about the heat generation from them without gauss to fall back on, and poptarts peeking up to counter the ballistic builds in power positions.

Maybe we don't have to go crazy and half AC cooldowns off the bat,

And again, so does increasing the duration. The lesser damage per tick makes them less survivable, and setting the chain of events you just described.

Dakota1000, on 03 January 2018 - 09:17 PM, said:

but they really are what need to be looked at and buffed, none of this nerfing laser nonsense that blindly demolishes all of the light weight classes.

You're just exaggerating, it should only be slightly harder. At least, depending on how things are tackled. It's not yet implemented so we're not 100% sure, as well as the actual changes aren't even established.

Vellron2005, on 04 January 2018 - 12:51 AM, said:

Why is nobody suggesting nerfing lasers and ballistics to promote more people using LRMs?

Its stupid..

Because the logic there is that LRM is underperformer and we would rather buff it, while lasers are generally overperformers that I am proposing to have a nerf. Ballistics are the middle, the standard we are using.

What is stupid is you not understanding that. Everybody else got it.

If you can't even contribute to the conversation, get the hell out of the thread. We already got your opinion on your previous post here, you aren't bringing anything new by just reiterating your opinion, you are just spamming.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 04 January 2018 - 01:39 AM.

[sycocys]

I still say that minimum range rolloffs are the best solution - but oddly enough PGI's poorly implemented target acquisition concept also did a bit of good and could have worked if they didn't just half *** ideas and throw them on to the test server.