33 replies to this topic

[BTGbullseye]

Shu Horus, on 12 January 2018 - 05:42 AM, said:

but and that's something some people like to forget, it does cripple a Clanner to a point were death is almost certain.

Actually, as a Clanner, I've found that losing 1 side makes no difference whatsoever to my survivability. Either I lost it because I was really unlucky with my positioning, (usually survive) or because I got swarmed. (usually die) Either way it's essentially a coin toss to whether I die after slowing.

Edited by BTGbullseye, 12 January 2018 - 09:43 PM.

[Gallius]

I've found LFEs to be amazing. I don't really see a reason to take a STD unless there's a decent amount of firepower in the CT (Centurion, for example). If you have no way to fight with both STs blown out, you may as well run a LFE and squeeze more out of the time you're alive/useful. Surviving to the end of the match shouldn't really be a goal in and of itself, let alone something you reduce your combat capability for; it's more a natural outcome to good personal and team play. As for "if you lose one ST you'll probably lose the other immediately anyway", I've had plenty of matches where I've hung on for quite a while with one ST. Finished plenty of matches like that as well. You just rotate out to second line and play more cautiously, just like if your CT or legs get hammered. I've never felt squishy because of an LFE/CXL engine.

[Koniving]

With an LFE, once you lose the first side torso, in addition to the issues of whatever you lost from that side, you also have a 20% drop in heat capacity, in cooling speed, and in engine speed.

Sometimes that isn't really worth the 1/4th cut in engine weight.

[Gallius]

Huh, didn't know that. It surprises me how much important information is effectively hidden from the player in this game.

[Void Angel]

Gallius, on 09 January 2018 - 03:00 PM, said:

Pretty much every IS build I've seen, whether on MechSpecs, YouTube, or elsewhere involves an XL engine. While I understand the allure of extra tonnage and speed, XL engines seem almost suicidal if you're doing anything other than poking from cover, but I even see brawlers built with them. It basically negates shield-side builds, and if you're trying to spread damage evenly you can still just get unlucky and explode.

Is there a reason I'm missing as to why people seem so comfortable running XL instead of LFE? LFE seems like a better option in nearly all cases; if you lose both side torsos you're probably a stick anyway, so you may as well take the weight reduction. I'm guessing the meta prefers TTK/glass cannon builds over more conservative setups, which makes enough sense for high-level play, but seems very odd to suggest for most QP pilots.

I've used XLs on certain close-combat builds (and a Light 'mech ALWAYS wants one.) And the meta shifts around a lot depending on what you're doing in the meta - for example, a lot of the metamechs.com builds I just sampled for the Inner Sphere use XL engines, while others do not (generally, the XLs are in XL-friendly chassis or in 'mechs designed for long-range poking trades.) However, for practical use in the more chaotic environment of matchmade teams, you should only use an XL on 'mechs which have hitboxes which are good for it, and in which you do not intend to brawl.

Bad hit boxes trump role, too. For example, a Stalker excels at ridgeline poking and second-line brawler support (meaning you're on the edges of the brawl blasting people, but not wading in.) This role might be good for an XL, depending on your build - but a Stalker's side torso hitboxes, while very hard to efficiently hit from the front, are impossible to miss from the side. This means that XL Stalker builds will die very quickly in a fight; and people will look at your build and know that you have more guns than a normal Stalker build - XLs in a Stalker are tantamount to suicide.

On the other hand, a Thunderbolt is one of the tankiest 'mechs in the game, pound for pound. Its blocky construction makes it amazingly easy to spread damage around, to the point that many players will simply ignore your torsos and try for the legs. But you still take damage from torsos, so XLs are risky in a brawling build.

In the final analysis, this actually does depend on what you're experiencing in your own games. Do you lose a side torso very often before you lose your CT in this 'mech? Then you shouldn't be installing that XL (even if the chassis is XL-friendly) - but you should probably work on your damage spreading skills. On the other hand, if you find that you're able to survive to the end of most matches pretty well, you can try the XL. And Light's nearly always want XLs because their ability to move and maneuver is the only thing they bring to the table that heavier 'mechs can't do better.

So if you've got the cash, don't be afraid to take the plunge (and never sell an XL/LF engine once bought.) If it proves a liability, slap it back in the warehouse and continue to adjust your build based on your results.

PS: this advice may seem like I'm advocating the "whatever works best for you is what works best" school of thought. I am not; there is nearly always an empirically superior set of options at any point in the game: what works best is what IS best, and you should practice with those weapons and tactics - even if you don't enjoy them - in order to understand and be able to deal with those builds on the field. However, there is more to being a good player than simply aping the current builds of top-level players; there's more to being a top-level player than good reflexes and motor skills, for that matter. What matters most is practice, and being a student of the game. So fiddle, and tinker, and pay attention to what the competitive crowd is doing - but be a student, not a disciple, and always be trying to learn.

[JediPanther]

If you plan on being an is light pilot you'll want xls in the 200,245,250, and 280 range. Since you can swap the engines in is lights you only need one of each to save a bit of c-bills. Is lights depend on their speed to avoid shots so put points into mobility for speed tweak.

Having an is xl will mean instant death once the side torso is blown up. Clan xls don't but you often can't engine swap most if not all clan mech engines. Using an extra light engine can be a compromise between xl and std engines. It'll weight less than the std and survive a side torso loss. You will have to give up tonnage for les weapons,gear and speed. The std engine will weight the most, survive side torso loss, bother of them as can the xle but you'll be a stick.

Being an IS light pilot generally gives you a speed advantage over clan lights since the clans don't have many lights able to go 140kph or faster. The ach,mlx and coming soon piranha mech will be the fastest clan lights. Most clan lights go 97kph trading speed for a lot of lasers or an ac 5/10.

[Xaat Xuun]

and it doesn't hurt to listen to Chubby Checker while running in a IS XL

[PoohPuss]

Xaat Xuun, on 15 January 2018 - 12:27 AM, said:

and it doesn't hurt to listen to Chubby Checker while running in a IS XL

[Metus regem]

mailin, on 09 January 2018 - 04:25 PM, said:

It really depends on the mech. If it has a weapon in the CT don't run a LFE if you wouldn't run an XL (Some Stalkers).

I wouldn't go that far, as the time of zombie mechs has long since passed, thanks mostly to the inclusion of the Clans. Really, what it is now, if you would run a standard engine on a mech, use a LFE, unless using hyper specialized weapon systems (such as the HGR or LB-20)... When it comes to XL engines, on a light mech, always use a XL, on a medium, it is generally a good idea, some are better with them than others, Heavies and assault mechs it really depends on the mech... for example, an XL in a Battlemaster isn't a bad idea, yet an XL engine in a Stalker is.

[Gallius]

Something else semi-hidden, though available in the tooltips: if you can, buy engines with ratings in multiples of 25. Buy a 250 and a 275, for example, but skip the 260. You get an extra heat sink or empty heat sink slot for every 25 rating you pay for. You can buy and use whatever you want, of course, but multiples of 25 are more efficient.

[BTGbullseye]

Gallius, on 18 January 2018 - 01:06 AM, said:

Something else semi-hidden, though available in the tooltips: if you can, buy engines with ratings in multiples of 25. Buy a 250 and a 275, for example, but skip the 260. You get an extra heat sink or empty heat sink slot for every 25 rating you pay for. You can buy and use whatever you want, of course, but multiples of 25 are more efficient.

In addition, the xl255 is the same weight as the xl250, so it's the one you should get instead. I'm not sure, but I don't think there are mechs out there that have a limit of 250.

[Koniving]

Koniving, on 13 January 2018 - 01:03 PM, said:

With an LFE, once you lose the first side torso, in addition to the issues of whatever you lost from that side, you also have a 20% drop in heat capacity, in cooling speed, and in engine speed.

Sometimes that isn't really worth the 1/4th cut in engine weight.

As an example of this since I did the math very recently...

Koniving, on 21 January 2018 - 11:21 AM, said:

If it is a hot or pure energy build, stick to standard engines. LF when the ST is destroyed will cut your cooling and max heat of your full strength by 20% on top of the heatsinks you lost which only compounds the loss of cooling and max heat.

So lets say you had (for simplicity's sake) 20 DHS. You have the 10 built into the engine and added 5 to the left and 5 to the right; where exactly doesn't matter. You lost the left side. So your full power max heat being 65 without quirks or skills (assuming manually added DHS is currently 1.5) and the cooling power being 3.5 heat/second... now it's 52 max heat and cooling at 2.8 heat/second... before we even factor the 5 heatsinks you just lost. So now it's 44.5 max heat and cooling at 2.05 heat/second... just because you lost a side torso.

This is a problem that doesn't exist with standard engines.
So the real question is why would you use an LFE? There's a huge tradeoff there that makes them very unappealing.

Edit: I forgot this is in addition to a 20% reduction in your top speed.

Personally, I still largely use XL and STD engines. Though I have a couple of LFEs.

[Void Angel]

Math is wrong, unless they changed ST destruction rules to affect all of your heat sinks. Side Torso destruction should only affect engine heat sinks and those mounted in the engine internally. It's also improper to include the loss of externally mounted heat sinks in discussing the merits of a LFE by itself. With an XL you're dead, and with a Standard you're still out those 5 sinks. For the LFE, you're actually only losing 0.8/second cooling, unless you have heat sinks installed in the slots for a 275+ engine rating.

So,the thing to do is a side-by-side comparison!

For an XL, BOOM, Torso Shot! You're dead.
For a Standard, you have no speed penalties, but you're still out the 5 heat sinks: Heat Capacity is at 57.5; cooling at 2.75/second
For the LFE, you're looking at a total reduction to 2.35/second cooling, and a heat capacity drop to 47.5. Plus, of course, the top speed reduction.

So the real opportunity costs for taking an LFE instead of a Standard would be 10 heat capacity and 0.4/second cooling.

So, why would you use an LFE? Well, sometimes you wouldn't, if you're running hot. Particularly if your 'mech can pack all of its weapons on one side and shield with the other, you don't want to really give up the cooling efficiency, particularly if you're packing extra heat sinks in a large engine. But many 'mechs have their weapons on both sides - the Atlas comes to mind. Losing a mere 20% of your engine heat sink efficiency won't even slow you down, since you'll have lost half your guns with the engine torso; and the drop in speed doesn't matter to a 'mech that can't run from anyone anyway - and torso twist and agility have long been disconnected from engine rating (thankfully.)

But there are other considerations, too - Atlases have guns on both sides, but those guns are mostly crammed into two torsos, limiting the chassis from taking full advantage of its tonnage (an LFE on an Atlas S would mean forgoing Artemis for your SRMs, for example.

So there's definitely a trade-off, but it's not terribly much as long as you have a use for the extra tonnage, and aren't crippled by heat inefficiency if your build loses a side torso.

Edited by Void Angel, 21 January 2018 - 03:08 PM.

[Angus McFife VI]

Only on lights and mediums. Go light engine for lighter assaults and for heavy techs. STD engine is normally better for the biggest assaults if you run out of slots.