36 replies to this topic

[Nema Nabojiv]

So in all MW5 videos I saw so far there was 1st person view. But. It is a singleplayer game and no 'unfair advantage' is to be had by having usable 3rd person view. And more importantly, it will be cool. PGI please.

[El Bandito]

All other popular MW games had 3PV, including MWO, so pretty sure MW5 will have it.

[JediPanther]

Even if pgi doesn't have 3pv with their claim of mod support eventually a moder would try and make a 3pv mode or option. I'm hoping mw5 to pull a skyrim with mods and keep going for a very long time from the modding community. As for mwo I expect it to remain as is.

[Steelmesh]

3rd person view is a must.. how else will I drool over how cool my mech looks?

[Nema Nabojiv]

El Bandito, on 09 January 2018 - 06:09 PM, said:

All other popular MW games had 3PV, including MWO, so pretty sure MW5 will have it.

That "including MWO" is the part I am worrying about. They been asked to make 3rd person in MWO but they didn't wanted to, for reasons still unclear to me.
So they made it to be as bad and unusable as they could and told everyone "see? we told you its not gonna work".

Mods can be a savior here, but its even better when the game is designed with 3PV in mind.

[El Bandito]

Nema Nabojiv, on 10 January 2018 - 03:33 AM, said:

That "including MWO" is the part I am worrying about. They been asked to make 3rd person in MWO but they didn't wanted to, for reasons still unclear to me.
So they made it to be as bad and unusable as they could and told everyone "see? we told you its not gonna work".

Mods can be a savior here, but its even better when the game is designed with 3PV in mind.

Reason was not unclear: MWO is a MP only game, and in such a game good 3PV can offer some unfair advantages over 1PV. Hence the crappy 3PV we have. MW5 is single player game so they do not have to worry about exploits.

[Daggett]

Nema Nabojiv, on 10 January 2018 - 03:33 AM, said:

That "including MWO" is the part I am worrying about. They been asked to make 3rd person in MWO but they didn't wanted to, for reasons still unclear to me.
So they made it to be as bad and unusable as they could and told everyone "see? we told you its not gonna work".

Mods can be a savior here, but its even better when the game is designed with 3PV in mind.

It was the other way around. PGI wanted this feature to improve the new player experience, but the community raged hard against it. For the simulation-crowd it was a break of immersion and others had the fear that it would provide too much of an advantage. Both were wrong but pressured PGI enough so they decided to gimp 3PV so hard that it was inferior to first person instead of becoming an equally valid alternative.

At this time World of Tanks has proven that a very similar game to MWO can perfectly work with both cameras being equally important depending on combat situation. But the shitstorm was stronger than reason here so we got that half-assed nonsense that we deserved.

Although to be fair PGI's made a lot of mistakes in both design and communication which fueled the hate even more. They should just have gone the WoT way and make 3PV an integral part of the game instead of just an optional bolt-on feature for newbies.

Means: An easily accessible default-button like shift to promote frequent switching, no delay to enable this frequent switching, full UI including battlegrid, and a camera further away and rotateable instead of being a fixed limpet where the mech fills the whole screen. Voila, you have 3PV for maneuvering and 1PV for precise aiming. And veterans who have mastered 1PV could still do as well as before when using 1PV only if they really want to.
Edit: And as a bonus players would actually be able to regularly see their own mech customization during a match without gimping their performance.

Nonetheless the whole discussion was a prime example that the loud vocal parts of a community often does NOT know whats best for their game and that not every shitstorm is justified. Often just because the average player has no technical background to know things like how easy it is to prevent 3PV from revealing more information than 1PV does.

MWO would probably have a LOT more players now with a proper 3PV implementation without dumbing down the experience. Almost every time i try to introduce new blood to the game they fail at maneuvering in 1PV while 3PV takes away too much of the rest like map-awareness for them to succeed.

I think PGI has no choice other than to offer 3PV in MW5 if they want to reach a large enough target audience to make the game profitable.

Edited by Daggett, 10 January 2018 - 07:07 AM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Daggett, on 10 January 2018 - 05:26 AM, said:

It was the other way around. PGI wanted this feature to improve the new player experience, but the community raged hard against it. For the simulation-crowd it was a break of immersion and others had the fear that it would provide too much of an advantage.

Oh, maybe I remember it this way because I was in the opposite trench to sim team, idk.
But yes, the game could be more popular with working 3pv than it is now.

[Dogstar]

I for one was a beta player who wanted to go from WoT to MWO but the rabid frothing against 3PV made it impossible.

I'm sure MWO lost a lot of potential players (and thus a lot of money) thanks to their insistence on bowing to the anti-3PV idiots.

[MauttyKoray]

Nema Nabojiv, on 10 January 2018 - 03:33 AM, said:

That "including MWO" is the part I am worrying about. They been asked to make 3rd person in MWO but they didn't wanted to, for reasons still unclear to me.
So they made it to be as bad and unusable as they could and told everyone "see? we told you its not gonna work".

Mods can be a savior here, but its even better when the game is designed with 3PV in mind.

Er, no, they made 3rd person the way it is to prevent tactical advantages from using it over 1st person. The drone is so people can't watch around corners (also the camera will react to it by moving certain ways) and gain information unfairly. Also the reticule is affected by movement (which is how it should be in 1st person too...but anyways) so you're not as accurate as 1st person and can't cheese firing over obstacles you normally couldn't see over as well.

More so though, 3rd person has two uses. The first being that you can view your mech in the game, and the second being so that players who are not experience with mech or body/turret style games can see their movement and learn how to pilot the mech with visual aid.

[4rcs1ne]

TBQH, I'm more concerned with whether or not PGI will add an HTAL display on the HUD.

Edited by Matt2496, 10 January 2018 - 10:09 AM.

[Mystere]

JediPanther, on 09 January 2018 - 06:49 PM, said:

Even if pgi doesn't have 3pv with their claim of mod support eventually a moder would try and make a 3pv mode or option. I'm hoping mw5 to pull a skyrim with mods and keep going for a very long time from the modding community.

There is nothing in PGI's history that indicates they can pull this off. As such, I see all of these modding fantasies as just that, fantasies.

[Mystere]

El Bandito, on 10 January 2018 - 04:16 AM, said:

Reason was not unclear: MWO is a MP only game, and in such a game good 3PV can offer some unfair advantages over 1PV. Hence the crappy 3PV we have. MW5 is single player game so they do not have to worry about exploits.

I guess geometry was too hard, for both PGI and much of the player population at that time.

Edited by Mystere, 10 January 2018 - 11:32 AM.

[Stinger554]

Mystere, on 10 January 2018 - 11:26 AM, said:

There is nothing in PGI's history that indicates they can pull this off. As such, I see all of these modding fantasies as just that, fantasies.

It's my understanding that UE4 is very easy to mod for(feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), so I don't think PGI's say on the matter is going to make a difference if people want to mod the game they will. PGI could make it easier that's all.

[Mystere]

Daggett, on 10 January 2018 - 05:26 AM, said:

They should just have gone the WoT way and make 3PV an integral part of the game instead of just an optional bolt-on feature for newbies.

PGI could have been really creative, in spite of the loud whining from a certain segment of the player base.

[Daggett]

MauttyKoray, on 10 January 2018 - 10:03 AM, said:

Er, no, they made 3rd person the way it is to prevent tactical advantages from using it over 1st person. The drone is so people can't watch around corners (also the camera will react to it by moving certain ways) and gain information unfairly.

They could have evaded this problem by changing how mech detection works.

In WoT for example the 3PV camera can't give you a tactical advantage because enemies are only drawn if the tank could see it. To see and display an enemy it must be possible to draw an unobstructed line between the player and that enemy. So if i switch to 3PV in WoT and look around corners enemy tanks are still hidden because my tank still don't have a line-of-sight.

In MWO however mechs are always visible/displayed which causes the problems with 3PV.
But the funny (or sad) thing is that MWO already has a line-of-sight mechanic similar to WoT. It is used to determine if the UI should display a target indicator or not. That's why mechs beyond our view-range or around corners are not revealed with UI-doritos.

So it's shouldn't be rocket science to apply this existing functionality to determine which mechs are displayed and which not.
But PGI decided to stay true to their system maybe because they don't wanted to further change things veterans already got used too.

But to make 3PV work PGI and those veteran players as well would have needed to swallow that pill. I'm sure in the long run it would have improved the game and it's player-base and we would have got a proper 3PV with no tactical advantages over 1PV.

If you go to the testing grounds you can see that even the gimped down version of 3PV we now have can be abused to look around corners and above hills. That's why PGI had to compensate with removing the battlegrid, attaching the camera way too close to the mech, adding a delay for switching modes and make aiming basically impossible in order to prevent further shitstorms from the 1PV veterans.

And this makes me sad knowing that the solution to this mess is to simply use the already existing line-of-sight functionality for mech visibility too like WoT does and that it seemed to be fear of further player fear (which translates to hate) that prevented this step.

So in essence i think this fear from both sides of the fence caused this feature to die. Such fear is almost always counterproductive...

Edited by Daggett, 10 January 2018 - 01:16 PM.

[Brody319]

Stinger554, on 10 January 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

It's my understanding that UE4 is very easy to mod for(feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), so I don't think PGI's say on the matter is going to make a difference if people want to mod the game they will. PGI could make it easier that's all.

It is quite easy to mod. Unreal Engine is like an upgraded Unity Engine in terms of power. It also has a ton of resources to use to help teach new people to use it. PGI also said they plan to have workshop support which will help make mods easy to access. I imagine even if MW5 fails it could be salvaged with mods.

Edited by Brody319, 10 January 2018 - 01:13 PM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Also in regard to "unfairness" of 3pv. Now, if someone is using something inaccessible to others - it is unfair. Like everyone agrees any kind of cheats in a multiplayer game are unfair because noone supposed to have them.

But. If everyone can have it can no longer be considered unfair and becomes just a feature you can use or not use at your discretion. We have players using joysticks, and its fine, its their decision and they dont call to ban all mouse controls for giving others advantages over joysticks.
I understand that people may wanted more immersion, but using the term "unfair" to justify not having something everyone could use, now that is whats been really unfair.

[Davegt27]

I have been going through old NGNG pod casts about MWO and from what I can tell

when they said they where going to add 3PV to MWO the out cry and back lash was pretty high

people got out there pitch forks and where up in arms about it

I am not a gamer and this is my first online game so the whole thing seems strange to me

[Stinger554]

Brody319, on 10 January 2018 - 01:13 PM, said:

It is quite easy to mod. Unreal Engine is like an upgraded Unity Engine in terms of power. It also has a ton of resources to use to help teach new people to use it. PGI also said they plan to have workshop support which will help make mods easy to access. I imagine even if MW5 fails it could be salvaged with mods.

Yep That was my point to Mystere. MWO 5 should be very easy to mod even if the base game kinda blows. Regardless of what PGI's ability to pull off modding support is.

Edited by Stinger554, 10 January 2018 - 02:20 PM.