For me it feels like the MM was turned off long ago...
1
Reminder: There Is No Mm In Tier 1-2 Games.
Started by sub2000, Jan 11 2018 11:25 AM
43 replies to this topic
#22
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- Ace Of Spades
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Posted 12 January 2018 - 02:04 AM
I think the OP is wrong
a few points
1) PGI never said they replaced the MM system they just changed the definition of a player (to the computer)
from the patch notes https://mwomercs.com...30-18-aug-2015/
point 2
the matchmaking system in picture taken from here
http://mwomercs.com/...28#entry3185728
[color=orange]What the Solo Public Match Queue Looks Like:[/color]
walk through replace the ELO with new PSR system
"Walkthrough:
GLHF
a few points
1) PGI never said they replaced the MM system they just changed the definition of a player (to the computer)
from the patch notes https://mwomercs.com...30-18-aug-2015/
Quote
Pilot Skill Rating - The Elo Replacement
The purpose of the new Pilot Skill Rating (PSR) system is to make your pilot skill values based more on individual performance, rather than the binary win or loss outcome of a match. This new PSR system will effectively remove the current Elo system from the game and the matchmaker.
The best way to explain how the PSR system works and why it is being implemented is to first explain the shortcomings of the Elo system in relation to its use for MechWarrior Online.
Elo was originally developed for measuring the relative skill levels of competitive chess players, but over time its use has expanded to an array of other competitive games from football to collectable card games. A players’ Elo score is derived from their win/loss rate, and is compared against their opponents' Elo score to determine which of the two scores should rise and which should fall after the match has reached a conclusion.
Therein lies the critical failure point when using the Elo scoring system for MWO.
MWO is not a 1v1 game. It is, currently, a 12v12 team-based game. Beyond your own performance, the outcome of a match is fundamentally reliant on the performance of your teammates. Their level of skill or experience would have a significant impact on determining whether your Elo would rise or fall after a match had concluded.
One of the impacts of this was that organized and effective teams could potentially carry a player to an Elo score well beyond what may befit their actual skill level. In this way and others, the Elo system caused all sorts of issues with the matchmaker in both solo and group queues, and would never accurately reflect how a player may perform on a personal basis.
To correct this problem, we have implemented a new scoring system based primarily on your individual performance within a match.
Any player action in the game that triggers a C-Bill or XP reward (such as kills, assists, or damage done) now applies to this scoring system. Skill rating in MWO is no longer determined solely by your win/loss rate. The Match Score displayed at the End of Round screen is now the primary metric that will determine a player’s skill rating.
We use the action triggers in a weighted formula that employs multipliers to place greater emphasis on certain actions over others. We have also added more action triggers to the tracking system to take into account other types of gameplay aside from just kills and damage done. Actions such as flanking an enemy, using a UAV to spot targets, or using TAG/NARC/BAP to mark targets, are now all part of this formula. These and other actions are weighted in such a way that promotes effective team play.
Essentially, the weighting system and new action triggers allow for a player who may excel in a scouting or support role to be just as well-rated as a player who excels at securing kills and dealing heavy damage.
How does this new system work in terms or raising or lowering skill ratings?
First off, the win/loss condition plays a much smaller role compared to the current Elo system.
With the new PSR system:
With the new PSR system in place we are now able to put players into Skill Tiers.
There are 5 Skill Tiers in which a pilot can be ranked: Tier 1 being comprised of the best-rated players in the game, and Tier 5 being comprised of pilots who are in dire need of additional training. That being said, we now have much more control over who plays against whom, without the presence of the ‘release valves’ that were in place under the original system.
The original Elo system for MWO employed these release valves to allow the matchmaker to relax restrictions in an effort to start games faster. This could result in top-tier players being matched with newer or lower-skilled players. With the release of PSR, that system is now gone.
A Tier 1 player will never play against a Tier 4 or Tier 5 player.
New players are automatically seeded into the mid-to-high range of Tier 4.
All current players will be seeded into whichever Skill Tier best aligns with the historical data already present in their account. The historical data pool used for generating your Tier placement goes back until January 2015.
The weighted formula and action triggers will not be released publicly. However, we are currently debating the merits of making all players’ respective Skill Tier levels publicly accessible. Part of this potential public Skill Tier listing is the possibility for opting-in or opting-out of listing your Skill Tier publicly. Tina will likely be putting up a poll to gather feedback about which option the community feels would be the best choice for handling public Skill Tiers.
The purpose of the new Pilot Skill Rating (PSR) system is to make your pilot skill values based more on individual performance, rather than the binary win or loss outcome of a match. This new PSR system will effectively remove the current Elo system from the game and the matchmaker.
The best way to explain how the PSR system works and why it is being implemented is to first explain the shortcomings of the Elo system in relation to its use for MechWarrior Online.
Elo was originally developed for measuring the relative skill levels of competitive chess players, but over time its use has expanded to an array of other competitive games from football to collectable card games. A players’ Elo score is derived from their win/loss rate, and is compared against their opponents' Elo score to determine which of the two scores should rise and which should fall after the match has reached a conclusion.
Therein lies the critical failure point when using the Elo scoring system for MWO.
MWO is not a 1v1 game. It is, currently, a 12v12 team-based game. Beyond your own performance, the outcome of a match is fundamentally reliant on the performance of your teammates. Their level of skill or experience would have a significant impact on determining whether your Elo would rise or fall after a match had concluded.
One of the impacts of this was that organized and effective teams could potentially carry a player to an Elo score well beyond what may befit their actual skill level. In this way and others, the Elo system caused all sorts of issues with the matchmaker in both solo and group queues, and would never accurately reflect how a player may perform on a personal basis.
To correct this problem, we have implemented a new scoring system based primarily on your individual performance within a match.
Any player action in the game that triggers a C-Bill or XP reward (such as kills, assists, or damage done) now applies to this scoring system. Skill rating in MWO is no longer determined solely by your win/loss rate. The Match Score displayed at the End of Round screen is now the primary metric that will determine a player’s skill rating.
We use the action triggers in a weighted formula that employs multipliers to place greater emphasis on certain actions over others. We have also added more action triggers to the tracking system to take into account other types of gameplay aside from just kills and damage done. Actions such as flanking an enemy, using a UAV to spot targets, or using TAG/NARC/BAP to mark targets, are now all part of this formula. These and other actions are weighted in such a way that promotes effective team play.
Essentially, the weighting system and new action triggers allow for a player who may excel in a scouting or support role to be just as well-rated as a player who excels at securing kills and dealing heavy damage.
How does this new system work in terms or raising or lowering skill ratings?
First off, the win/loss condition plays a much smaller role compared to the current Elo system.
With the new PSR system:
- If a players' team wins, and the player did well during the match (achieving a high Match Score), the player will rise in skill rating.
- If a players' team wins, but the player did not perform well (achieving a low Match Score), the player will not move in terms of skill rating.
- If a players' team loses, but the player does exceptionally well (achieving a very high Match Score), the player will go up slightly in skill rating.
- If a players' team loses, but the player performed well (achieving a high Match Score), the player will not move in skill rating.
- If the players' team loses, and the player performed poorly (achieving a low Match Score), they will drop in skill rating.
With the new PSR system in place we are now able to put players into Skill Tiers.
There are 5 Skill Tiers in which a pilot can be ranked: Tier 1 being comprised of the best-rated players in the game, and Tier 5 being comprised of pilots who are in dire need of additional training. That being said, we now have much more control over who plays against whom, without the presence of the ‘release valves’ that were in place under the original system.
The original Elo system for MWO employed these release valves to allow the matchmaker to relax restrictions in an effort to start games faster. This could result in top-tier players being matched with newer or lower-skilled players. With the release of PSR, that system is now gone.
A Tier 1 player will never play against a Tier 4 or Tier 5 player.
New players are automatically seeded into the mid-to-high range of Tier 4.
All current players will be seeded into whichever Skill Tier best aligns with the historical data already present in their account. The historical data pool used for generating your Tier placement goes back until January 2015.
The weighted formula and action triggers will not be released publicly. However, we are currently debating the merits of making all players’ respective Skill Tier levels publicly accessible. Part of this potential public Skill Tier listing is the possibility for opting-in or opting-out of listing your Skill Tier publicly. Tina will likely be putting up a poll to gather feedback about which option the community feels would be the best choice for handling public Skill Tiers.
point 2
the matchmaking system in picture taken from here
http://mwomercs.com/...28#entry3185728
[color=orange]What the Solo Public Match Queue Looks Like:[/color]
walk through replace the ELO with new PSR system
"Walkthrough:
- A solo player can still select which Game Mode they wish to drop into.
- Upon clicking Launch, the player is bucketed into one of 3 tiers based on their Elo score. 0-1000 = Tier 1. 1001-1500 = Tier 2. 1501-2800 = Tier 3. (Keep in mind, these thresholds will be tuned as we monitor games being played.)
- The now Elo Ranked Player is put into the Match Maker queue and their Mech’s Weight Class is recorded.
- The Match Maker now looks for any games available that have room for the player’s Mech Weight Class and are in the same Elo tier.
- When an opening is found, the Player is injected into a Team in that game.
- The Match Maker fills both teams with 3 Assault Mechs, 3 Heavy Mechs, 3 Medium Mechs and 3 Light Mechs.
- When both teams are full, the Match Maker kicks off the game and players connect to their dedicated server and play a match.
- Upon completing the match, players are returned to the front end where they can re-prep their Mechs for the next match."
GLHF
#23
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- Shredder
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Posted 12 January 2018 - 05:55 AM
No matter what system, a player in 1 tier should never be able to get into a game with another player 2 tiers away, ie T5 cannot play with T3, no T4s with T2, no T3s with T1.
Based on the latest tweaks to MM (after tier window expands):
T1 matches with T1/2.
T2 matches with T1/2/3
T3 matches with T2/3/4
T4 matches with T3/4/5.
T5 matches with T4/5.
So T3s never meet T1s. Ever. If based on the "designed mechanics". But it's clear now it's not working as intended, as there appears to be a network effect in the MM, ie if a T3 matches with a T2, that T2 can pull in a T1. Therefore if you let the network effect play out far enough, a T5 pulls a T4 who pulls a T3 who then pulls a T2 who finally pulls a T1, thereby allowing a T1 to play with a T5, resulting in an abject failure on the MM's part.
If you need video evidence just look at Baradul's Warhammer video uploaded a few days ago, I'm in it.
Based on the latest tweaks to MM (after tier window expands):
T1 matches with T1/2.
T2 matches with T1/2/3
T3 matches with T2/3/4
T4 matches with T3/4/5.
T5 matches with T4/5.
So T3s never meet T1s. Ever. If based on the "designed mechanics". But it's clear now it's not working as intended, as there appears to be a network effect in the MM, ie if a T3 matches with a T2, that T2 can pull in a T1. Therefore if you let the network effect play out far enough, a T5 pulls a T4 who pulls a T3 who then pulls a T2 who finally pulls a T1, thereby allowing a T1 to play with a T5, resulting in an abject failure on the MM's part.
If you need video evidence just look at Baradul's Warhammer video uploaded a few days ago, I'm in it.
#24
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Posted 12 January 2018 - 07:52 AM
arcana75, on 12 January 2018 - 05:55 AM, said:
No matter what system, a player in 1 tier should never be able to get into a game with another player 2 tiers away, ie T5 cannot play with T3, no T4s with T2, no T3s with T1.
Based on the latest tweaks to MM (after tier window expands):
T1 matches with T1/2.
T2 matches with T1/2/3
T3 matches with T2/3/4
T4 matches with T3/4/5.
T5 matches with T4/5.
So T3s never meet T1s. Ever. If based on the "designed mechanics". But it's clear now it's not working as intended, as there appears to be a network effect in the MM, ie if a T3 matches with a T2, that T2 can pull in a T1. Therefore if you let the network effect play out far enough, a T5 pulls a T4 who pulls a T3 who then pulls a T2 who finally pulls a T1, thereby allowing a T1 to play with a T5, resulting in an abject failure on the MM's part.
If you need video evidence just look at Baradul's Warhammer video uploaded a few days ago, I'm in it.
Based on the latest tweaks to MM (after tier window expands):
T1 matches with T1/2.
T2 matches with T1/2/3
T3 matches with T2/3/4
T4 matches with T3/4/5.
T5 matches with T4/5.
So T3s never meet T1s. Ever. If based on the "designed mechanics". But it's clear now it's not working as intended, as there appears to be a network effect in the MM, ie if a T3 matches with a T2, that T2 can pull in a T1. Therefore if you let the network effect play out far enough, a T5 pulls a T4 who pulls a T3 who then pulls a T2 who finally pulls a T1, thereby allowing a T1 to play with a T5, resulting in an abject failure on the MM's part.
If you need video evidence just look at Baradul's Warhammer video uploaded a few days ago, I'm in it.
This is what P.G.I said they implemented, and what I've been referring to for the last few months.
Dave's post above yours is out of date as they no longer do 3/3/3/3 this part was turned off ages ago.
However we don't know if P.G.I turned it off or reverted to a system which allows T3's to launch with T1's
We do know from the past that T4's were launching with T1's and I was in a match playing against Edmeister, where one of my team after taking flack for being in a LRM Ebon Jag claimed to only have been playing the game 3 days.
He played like it.
Even if P.G.I finally adjusted PSR to remove the upward bias, nothing stops them from quietly putting it back in after a few weeks, months, all we would have is our own impressions of the way it played and no hard evidence.
Even if these low tier players came here with their tier displayed and a screen shoot showing the miss match, after a month or so they'll be hopefully higher, or possibly quit playing, out of frustration, because it's far worse for a newbie pilot to be facing seriously good players, that totally out class them, to the extent they can't learn, than to watch a team fold around you.
Edited by Cathy, 12 January 2018 - 07:53 AM.
#25
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- The Widow Maker
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Posted 12 January 2018 - 08:26 AM
Comes down to population. If there are not enough players in a given tier(s) then PGI has to decide. Have people que up and wait or just make mash potatoes and serve. Maybe a timer hybrid system. 3 waiting in tier 1 que..... ok 20 seconds too long dump them into next available game.
But if you think PGI will reveal its formula I have mech pack you really need to look at......
But if you think PGI will reveal its formula I have mech pack you really need to look at......
#26
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- Liquid Metal
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Posted 12 January 2018 - 09:09 AM
Hey, can I just ask a question, maybe off topic?
Do we know for a fact that the matchmaker uses tiers at all in match making? Is it possible that it uses another hidden skill rating or other data to pair players?
I figure a Dev stated this in a Q&A or a FAQ somewhere, I'm just curious.
Do we know for a fact that the matchmaker uses tiers at all in match making? Is it possible that it uses another hidden skill rating or other data to pair players?
I figure a Dev stated this in a Q&A or a FAQ somewhere, I'm just curious.
#27
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Posted 12 January 2018 - 09:16 AM
Water Bear, on 12 January 2018 - 09:09 AM, said:
Hey, can I just ask a question, maybe off topic?
Do we know for a fact that the matchmaker uses tiers at all in match making? Is it possible that it uses another hidden skill rating or other data to pair players?
I figure a Dev stated this in a Q&A or a FAQ somewhere, I'm just curious.
Do we know for a fact that the matchmaker uses tiers at all in match making? Is it possible that it uses another hidden skill rating or other data to pair players?
I figure a Dev stated this in a Q&A or a FAQ somewhere, I'm just curious.
Yes. The last time the matchmaker was described by PGI, it used Tier.
However, they said the changes they were describing may not be permanent, and a lot of people (Myself included) are pretty sure they're no longer valid. Best guess, it's still running on tier, just opened way the hell up.
#28
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- Shredder
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Posted 12 January 2018 - 09:17 AM
Quote
I can confirm for a fact that I've been matched with T3s and I know B33f has been as well. T4s and T5s usually don't mention their tier, so I have no idea if I've been in games with them or not.
True. I just made T2 earlier this week, and played in matches with B33f and Baradul over Christmas break.
#29
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- Liquid Metal
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Posted 12 January 2018 - 09:27 AM
Bombast, on 12 January 2018 - 09:16 AM, said:
Yes. The last time the matchmaker was described by PGI, it used Tier.
However, they said the changes they were describing may not be permanent, and a lot of people (Myself included) are pretty sure they're no longer valid. Best guess, it's still running on tier, just opened way the hell up.
Thank you!
#30
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- Shredder
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Posted 13 January 2018 - 07:20 AM
Cathy, on 12 January 2018 - 07:52 AM, said:
This is what P.G.I said they implemented, and what I've been referring to for the last few months.
Dave's post above yours is out of date as they no longer do 3/3/3/3 this part was turned off ages ago.
However we don't know if P.G.I turned it off or reverted to a system which allows T3's to launch with T1's
We do know from the past that T4's were launching with T1's and I was in a match playing against Edmeister, where one of my team after taking flack for being in a LRM Ebon Jag claimed to only have been playing the game 3 days.
He played like it.
Even if P.G.I finally adjusted PSR to remove the upward bias, nothing stops them from quietly putting it back in after a few weeks, months, all we would have is our own impressions of the way it played and no hard evidence.
Even if these low tier players came here with their tier displayed and a screen shoot showing the miss match, after a month or so they'll be hopefully higher, or possibly quit playing, out of frustration, because it's far worse for a newbie pilot to be facing seriously good players, that totally out class them, to the extent they can't learn, than to watch a team fold around you.
Dave's post above yours is out of date as they no longer do 3/3/3/3 this part was turned off ages ago.
However we don't know if P.G.I turned it off or reverted to a system which allows T3's to launch with T1's
We do know from the past that T4's were launching with T1's and I was in a match playing against Edmeister, where one of my team after taking flack for being in a LRM Ebon Jag claimed to only have been playing the game 3 days.
He played like it.
Even if P.G.I finally adjusted PSR to remove the upward bias, nothing stops them from quietly putting it back in after a few weeks, months, all we would have is our own impressions of the way it played and no hard evidence.
Even if these low tier players came here with their tier displayed and a screen shoot showing the miss match, after a month or so they'll be hopefully higher, or possibly quit playing, out of frustration, because it's far worse for a newbie pilot to be facing seriously good players, that totally out class them, to the extent they can't learn, than to watch a team fold around you.
If PGI turned off their last updated system in lieu of a different/wider system, they NEED to come out and make an announcement. Otherwise things just aren't working as intended.
#31
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- Ace Of Spades
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Posted 13 January 2018 - 07:36 AM
I am pretty sure everything is as per this announcement https://mwomercs.com...ng-restrictions
The caveat being the MM gets loosened if the queue time gets too extended.
The caveat being the MM gets loosened if the queue time gets too extended.
#32
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- Ace Of Spades
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Posted 13 January 2018 - 11:10 AM
Bombast, on 11 January 2018 - 12:09 PM, said:
Actually, I'm pretty sure the Tier based MM collapsed or was turned off about a week prior to Christmas. I haven't checked stats in a week, but everytime I did confirmed what I suspected - Every game had people that could be, at best, T4. This was based on game count as well as performance - There was simply no what these people could have gotten to T3.
Anecdotally, playing today, I'm 99% certain this is still true - There is no such thing as a T1, or even a T1/2, match anymore. So its all moot. We're likely back at the T4/5, T1/2/3 system.
Anecdotally, playing today, I'm 99% certain this is still true - There is no such thing as a T1, or even a T1/2, match anymore. So its all moot. We're likely back at the T4/5, T1/2/3 system.
I was in a match this week where someone asked in all chat what everyone's tier was. Every single person that replied was T1 or T2.
that's just anecdotal of course
#33
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Posted 13 January 2018 - 11:14 AM
UnofficialOperator, on 13 January 2018 - 07:36 AM, said:
I am pretty sure everything is as per this announcement https://mwomercs.com...ng-restrictions
The caveat being the MM gets loosened if the queue time gets too extended.
The caveat being the MM gets loosened if the queue time gets too extended.
100% this.
All behaviour people are seeing is explained by this. While PSR is flawed, the matchmaker is set up correctly.
Edited by ForceUser, 13 January 2018 - 11:17 AM.
#34
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Posted 13 January 2018 - 07:22 PM
UnofficialOperator, on 13 January 2018 - 07:36 AM, said:
I am pretty sure everything is as per this announcement https://mwomercs.com...ng-restrictions
The caveat being the MM gets loosened if the queue time gets too extended.
The caveat being the MM gets loosened if the queue time gets too extended.
The "loosened" bit is supposed to be within the tier range as stated in the link you posted and what I posted earlier.
Whenever possible, the system will still attempt to match players within their specific Tier. It is only when wait times reach a certain duration that the system loosens up to check for players a single Tier beyond your own.
#35
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Posted 13 January 2018 - 08:28 PM
Quote
These tighter matchmaking restrictions will help to improve per-match balance, but this improvement comes at a cost; wait times, particularly outside of peak hours, may see an increase by up to a minute or more.
We would like to stress that this is not necessarily a permanent change. We realize the balance between wait times and match quality is a delicate one, and will be closely monitoring the matchmaking system and adjusting its rules as needed.
We would like to stress that this is not necessarily a permanent change. We realize the balance between wait times and match quality is a delicate one, and will be closely monitoring the matchmaking system and adjusting its rules as needed.
When people complained about extremely long wait times on twitter they have loosened up the MM more to include more tiers. Especially outside of prime times you can either wait for up to 7-15min (length of a match) or they can add T3s to T1 matches. If the community complains about wait times then they do listen if it's particularly bad.
#36
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- Liquid Metal
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Posted 13 January 2018 - 09:00 PM
arcana75, on 12 January 2018 - 05:55 AM, said:
No matter what system, a player in 1 tier should never be able to get into a game with another player 2 tiers away, ie T5 cannot play with T3, no T4s with T2, no T3s with T1.
Based on the latest tweaks to MM (after tier window expands):
T1 matches with T1/2.
T2 matches with T1/2/3
T3 matches with T2/3/4
T4 matches with T3/4/5.
T5 matches with T4/5.
So T3s never meet T1s. Ever. If based on the "designed mechanics". But it's clear now it's not working as intended, as there appears to be a network effect in the MM, ie if a T3 matches with a T2, that T2 can pull in a T1. Therefore if you let the network effect play out far enough, a T5 pulls a T4 who pulls a T3 who then pulls a T2 who finally pulls a T1, thereby allowing a T1 to play with a T5, resulting in an abject failure on the MM's part.
If you need video evidence just look at Baradul's Warhammer video uploaded a few days ago, I'm in it.
Based on the latest tweaks to MM (after tier window expands):
T1 matches with T1/2.
T2 matches with T1/2/3
T3 matches with T2/3/4
T4 matches with T3/4/5.
T5 matches with T4/5.
So T3s never meet T1s. Ever. If based on the "designed mechanics". But it's clear now it's not working as intended, as there appears to be a network effect in the MM, ie if a T3 matches with a T2, that T2 can pull in a T1. Therefore if you let the network effect play out far enough, a T5 pulls a T4 who pulls a T3 who then pulls a T2 who finally pulls a T1, thereby allowing a T1 to play with a T5, resulting in an abject failure on the MM's part.
If you need video evidence just look at Baradul's Warhammer video uploaded a few days ago, I'm in it.
your average percentile is higher then mine and I'm 75 percent of the way to tier 1 that might be part of it
#37
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- The 1 Percent
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Posted 13 January 2018 - 10:19 PM
The matchmaker is clearly overstressed in getting T1's together for matches. And it cheerfully will stuff T3s into matches. I've checked plenty of my endgame screens, and some days literally half of my matches I was able to find at least one (hence probably at least two or more) name that fit the bill.
A player on their 26th match can be T3. Massive skill mismatches are inevitable. I'd rather have the MM go two tiers as a last ditch effort, going for an 8v8 matchup of T1-T2 players first before running a 12v12 with T3s.
A player on their 26th match can be T3. Massive skill mismatches are inevitable. I'd rather have the MM go two tiers as a last ditch effort, going for an 8v8 matchup of T1-T2 players first before running a 12v12 with T3s.
#38
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Posted 14 January 2018 - 06:37 AM
UnofficialOperator, on 11 January 2018 - 05:20 PM, said:
Just an example of how badly someone with a high WLR/KDR needs to carry. This is a famous pilot. So they need to give him weaker team mates to compensate for his stats. Of course like I said earlier, this is anecdotal. I'll compile more if I have the time. Well I'd rather have 2 average pilots than 1 exceptional pilot and a few potatos. But overall, the MM does seem to try to equalize so for OP to say that there is no MM is false. Oh and also why pilots should stick to their usual mech which gave them their WLR. If you do well in Assaults with a high WLR and go down to playing Lights with a bad WLR, I think it might affect the MM (although I have no proof that MM accounts for this or does not account for this. Pretty sure we would have won this if I was in assault but I gave up my spot to a <1 KDR assault player) Look at the KDRs... it is very telling that they gave the famous pilot more teammates who do 0.5 to 0.6 KDR. These people cannot kill. PS: Of course I might be wrong too. I'm **** at stats so take this with a grain of salt 
Interesting table. But honestly, I'd have to disagree. Overall, the numbers in that table would tend to indicate a fairly balanced match.
The first problem is that the matchmaker doesn't take into account playstyle, mech choice, mech loadout and other factors. For example, a cicada pilot who does 900+ damage is likely using a 2+ x ERLL build and sniping at long range. They will also tend ot have a higher KDR since they don't engage. If they win the match, their odds of being one of the survivors are much higher than their team mates. W/L and K/D are not wholly independent statistics. The D in K/D depends heavily on the L in W/L since most win conditions in MWO devolve into skirmish. However, in game modes other than skirmish this play style ALSO ensures a higher K/D since it is often not worth chasing down the sniper if the team has an alternate win condition. As a result, the stats for someone with this playstyle tend to be skewed to higher K/D values. In addition, if the player is actually good at their chosen playstyle then sniping at weak components of opponents in a melee CAN be very effective at helping win the match. It is a support role but if your team has a couple of other half decent players then the role will also contribute to an enhanced W/L. However, this is situational.
The second problem is the actual play of the match. I have been in a lot of close matches where the teams are maneuvering, shooting, some small pushes UNTIL one team makes an error. Perhaps one team is organized in a line and 4-6 opposing mechs make it to the end of the line ... they then focus fire their way up the line and due to the limited use of communications and team work in quickplay the team doesn't respond fast enough (even when they do respond they have often already lost 2+ mechs). This can easily tip the balance and the match end up 12-2. Were they bad players? Generally not in my experience .. just the usual mix.
I think the second one contributes to a lot of the complaints. Your side can easily lose a match when one lance or even a couple of mechs makes a mistake. These problems can be mitigated a bit by getting folks to group up since the death ball is probably the most reliable strategy for a random group of folks with no communications happening.
When I played a light mech more frequently, I found that I had to wait 20 seconds at the start of a match before heading out scouting ... if I tried to scout as the match started, there were usually 2-4 medium/heavy/assault mechs that would start to follow the fast light mech on the assumption that the person moving first and decisively knew where to go. This was a real problem since it would string out our whole force.
Anyway, the bottom line is that the PSR system doesn't really work now since there are a number of different play styles that over time will lead to Tier 1/2 status (including the heavy use of the often denigrated LRM). I suspect most of the folks in the tables from your matches actually ARE tier1/2 ... the issue isn't the matchmaker these days but the ranking system. I'm not sure what the "score" column in your tables are drawn from but usually an average score in the 200 to 250 range will eventually hit tier 1 as far as I know.
#39
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- The Pest
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Posted 14 January 2018 - 08:07 AM
Ok...first. I'm a Potato Tier 10 and proud of it.
All this math is great..but...real world feels in QP? MM is a joke. I've seen some matches that one side was spiked with mostly T1's (with lower tonnage) and they'll cherry pick the other team so that their heavy mechs are piloted by noobs. Guess what happens? Yeah...like last night...watching an Atlas spin for 30 seconds while a T1 in a Locust stole his lunch money. I don't know how CP and FP are but QP is sometimes broken due to MM.
All this math is great..but...real world feels in QP? MM is a joke. I've seen some matches that one side was spiked with mostly T1's (with lower tonnage) and they'll cherry pick the other team so that their heavy mechs are piloted by noobs. Guess what happens? Yeah...like last night...watching an Atlas spin for 30 seconds while a T1 in a Locust stole his lunch money. I don't know how CP and FP are but QP is sometimes broken due to MM.
#40
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- Ace Of Spades
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Posted 14 January 2018 - 11:11 AM
TLDR:
I think you got my intent wrong. Basically I was showing OP that MM is actually working as intended and that the thread title is wrong. But because the basis of the MM is using PSR's flawed methodology, you still get ****** pilots in T1/T2 matches. What is worse is that if you have a very high KDR/WLR, you literally have to carry more because you are assigned more potatoes on your team.
That's what I'm saying. On the surface it looks equal if you look at it from the average team KDR. However do you feel that a 1.5 KDR player + a 0.5 KDR player is equal to a 1.0 KDR + a 1.0 KDR player? Have you ever seen how badly a 0.5 KDR player plays? Anyway my stance is that it is not equal and IF this is how MM actually works, then imo its borked. If you look at the first chart, the winning team has 2 potatos and the losing team has 4 potatos. IMO, it is because the expert player with the high WLR /KDR on the losing team skewed the MM.
You simply have a lot of wrong assumptions on this one.
The famous player in the 2nd chart plays mainly assault mechs. The WLR and KDR I used are from the lifetime stats. This pilot's recent season 18 stats are even higher. And the match this pilot was in, was on Mining which is a small map. The entire battle took 4mins 42 seconds which means it was a very fast match. I highly doubt it was 2x erLL sniping cicada.
Sure I can agree that the scorelines like 12-2 are sometimes simply the snowballing effect. IMO, scores like 12-11 are simply the effect of bad passive gameplay/overly cautious gameplay rather than "good" gameplay. Funny enough its almost always applauded ingame by players.
PSR is just an experience bar with a perpetual upward bias. Which means after 18 seasons, pilots who shouldn't be in T1 have reached T1. And yes I agree that the players in the matches are T1 and T2, I don't think I said that they weren't. Some of them are just really ****** T1/T2 pilots (On a sidenote, I believe T3 is possible but that is another discussion on how I think MM can be gamed).
I think you are mistaken on my intent.
Basically I was showing OP that MM is actually working as intended and that the thread title is wrong. But because the basis of the MM is using PSR's flawed methodology, you still get ****** pilots in T1/T2 matches. What is worse is that if you have a very high KDR/WLR, you literally have to carry more because you are assigned more potatoes on your team.
Its every player's lifetime stats from Jarl's list.
I think you got my intent wrong. Basically I was showing OP that MM is actually working as intended and that the thread title is wrong. But because the basis of the MM is using PSR's flawed methodology, you still get ****** pilots in T1/T2 matches. What is worse is that if you have a very high KDR/WLR, you literally have to carry more because you are assigned more potatoes on your team.
Mawai, on 14 January 2018 - 06:37 AM, said:
Interesting table. But honestly, I'd have to disagree. Overall, the numbers in that table would tend to indicate a fairly balanced match.
That's what I'm saying. On the surface it looks equal if you look at it from the average team KDR. However do you feel that a 1.5 KDR player + a 0.5 KDR player is equal to a 1.0 KDR + a 1.0 KDR player? Have you ever seen how badly a 0.5 KDR player plays? Anyway my stance is that it is not equal and IF this is how MM actually works, then imo its borked. If you look at the first chart, the winning team has 2 potatos and the losing team has 4 potatos. IMO, it is because the expert player with the high WLR /KDR on the losing team skewed the MM.
Mawai, on 14 January 2018 - 06:37 AM, said:
The first problem is that the matchmaker doesn't take into account playstyle, mech choice, mech loadout and other factors. For example, a cicada pilot who does 900+ damage is likely using a 2+ x ERLL build and sniping at long range. They will also tend ot have a higher KDR since they don't engage. If they win the match, their odds of being one of the survivors are much higher than their team mates. W/L and K/D are not wholly independent statistics. The D in K/D depends heavily on the L in W/L since most win conditions in MWO devolve into skirmish. However, in game modes other than skirmish this play style ALSO ensures a higher K/D since it is often not worth chasing down the sniper if the team has an alternate win condition. As a result, the stats for someone with this playstyle tend to be skewed to higher K/D values. In addition, if the player is actually good at their chosen playstyle then sniping at weak components of opponents in a melee CAN be very effective at helping win the match. It is a support role but if your team has a couple of other half decent players then the role will also contribute to an enhanced W/L. However, this is situational.
You simply have a lot of wrong assumptions on this one.
The famous player in the 2nd chart plays mainly assault mechs. The WLR and KDR I used are from the lifetime stats. This pilot's recent season 18 stats are even higher. And the match this pilot was in, was on Mining which is a small map. The entire battle took 4mins 42 seconds which means it was a very fast match. I highly doubt it was 2x erLL sniping cicada.
Mawai, on 14 January 2018 - 06:37 AM, said:
The second problem is the actual play of the match. I have been in a lot of close matches where the teams are maneuvering, shooting, some small pushes UNTIL one team makes an error. Perhaps one team is organized in a line and 4-6 opposing mechs make it to the end of the line ... they then focus fire their way up the line and due to the limited use of communications and team work in quickplay the team doesn't respond fast enough (even when they do respond they have often already lost 2+ mechs). This can easily tip the balance and the match end up 12-2. Were they bad players? Generally not in my experience .. just the usual mix.
Sure I can agree that the scorelines like 12-2 are sometimes simply the snowballing effect. IMO, scores like 12-11 are simply the effect of bad passive gameplay/overly cautious gameplay rather than "good" gameplay. Funny enough its almost always applauded ingame by players.
Mawai, on 14 January 2018 - 06:37 AM, said:
Anyway, the bottom line is that the PSR system doesn't really work now since there are a number of different play styles that over time will lead to Tier 1/2 status (including the heavy use of the often denigrated LRM). I suspect most of the folks in the tables from your matches actually ARE tier1/2 ... the issue isn't the matchmaker these days but the ranking system.
PSR is just an experience bar with a perpetual upward bias. Which means after 18 seasons, pilots who shouldn't be in T1 have reached T1. And yes I agree that the players in the matches are T1 and T2, I don't think I said that they weren't. Some of them are just really ****** T1/T2 pilots (On a sidenote, I believe T3 is possible but that is another discussion on how I think MM can be gamed).
I think you are mistaken on my intent.
Basically I was showing OP that MM is actually working as intended and that the thread title is wrong. But because the basis of the MM is using PSR's flawed methodology, you still get ****** pilots in T1/T2 matches. What is worse is that if you have a very high KDR/WLR, you literally have to carry more because you are assigned more potatoes on your team.
Mawai, on 14 January 2018 - 06:37 AM, said:
I'm not sure what the "score" column in your tables are drawn from but usually an average score in the 200 to 250 range will eventually hit tier 1 as far as I know.
Its every player's lifetime stats from Jarl's list.
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