38 replies to this topic

[sycocys]

As I stated the problem with consumable is the same as the problem with the skill buff system as well as old module system.

Everyone having access to them doesn't create a situation of balance. Accounting for what is used it the only way to do that.

- Building both those systems (consumables + skill buffs) into a crit/tonnage, even/up to heat, cost on loadouts is the only way that they will ever create a situation where they are even remotely balanced systems. Free buffs are one of the biggest balance issues outside of teamwork and lack of a proper MM system for years.

[Mystere]

FuzzyNZ, on 17 January 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

So if a 'smoke grenade' which has infinite range weighs next to 0. Why can't we equip an infinite number of these cheap smoke grenades?

Where did you get the idea that the smoke grenade has infinite range?

FuzzyNZ, on 17 January 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

I think you do need consumables to compete actually. Same mech, same loadout, one has a coolshot, the other has maxed out armour even... who will win?

The better player?

[Dimento Graven]

Mystere, on 17 January 2018 - 03:00 PM, said:

Where did you get the idea that the smoke grenade has infinite range?

...

I'm curious and admittedly ignorant here... What IS the actual maximum range of placing a strike? I believe I've seen people do it from one side of the map to the opposite end in maps like Tourmaline Desert, which is a pretty darned big map.

If there's a maximum range, I'm unaware of it. If you got that number, please tell me what it is, because I've always believed it was infinite too...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 17 January 2018 - 03:17 PM.

[Mystere]

Dimento Graven, on 17 January 2018 - 03:17 PM, said:

I'm curious and admittedly ignorant here... What IS the actual maximum range of placing a strike? I believe I've seen people do it from one side of the map to the opposite end in maps like Tourmaline Desert, which is a pretty darned big map.

If there's a maximum range, I'm unaware of it. If you got that number, please tell me what it is, because I've always believed it was infinite too...

Unless it has changed, it's 2500 meters.

[Lukoi Banacek]

It further separates and disadvantages the new from the old, the haves from the have nots etc.

Now, if every time you overheated you had to replace coolant, and after XX number (I don't, pick one that makes sense) of energy weapon shots you had to pay to have lens re-aligned or something, was added along with ammunition costs, it would make sense.

I don't mind a maintenance consideration. Just make it impact all systems, not just the ammo based ones (to differing degrees if needed).

But really all this does it increase the grind for casuals and weaker players. Not needed imo. Doesn't have one iota of impact on the whales and high performers already spamming consumables, so adding another cost to them isn't going to curb that.

Edited by Lukoi Banacek, 17 January 2018 - 04:33 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Mystere, on 17 January 2018 - 04:26 PM, said:

Unless it has changed, it's 2500 meters.

Ok, cool. I'll check it out and try and confirm it.

What happens if you're pointing at a location beyond 2500 meters? Does it not place the smoke at all, or does it drop the smoke along the arm targeting reticule at the 2500 meter mark?I realized you linked it, I read it and got my answer thank you.

Still, I'm going to test this, because up to this point I'd almost swear that on Alpine Peaks I've placed strikes WELL beyond the 2500 meter mark but I'm not so certain about that now...

EDIT: Just tested this in game (Testing Grounds, to be specific) and it works as described in the link you provided, and regardless of how far off the point you've got your arm targeting reticule is, the maximum distance from you that the smoke will be placed is 2500 meters.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 17 January 2018 - 04:50 PM.

[UnofficialOperator]

Please stop giving PGI any ideas. There is no rhyme to how PGI balances so its not unthinkable that they bring back R&R...

[ANOM O MECH]

FuzzyNZ, on 17 January 2018 - 09:17 AM, said:

If we are paying Cbills for UAVs, Strikes and Coolshots, why do we not pay for ammo used?

Why is ammo a one off cost?

Under same vein, shouldn't UAVs Strikes and Cooldowns be one off too?

You must really hate people to come up with this.

[FuzzyNZ]

tker 669, on 17 January 2018 - 09:54 PM, said:

You must really hate people to come up with this.

How about the other way where Consumables are free for a 1 off cost like ammo?

[sycocys]

FuzzyNZ, on 17 January 2018 - 11:21 PM, said:

How about the other way where Consumables are free for a 1 off cost like ammo?

This is what they should have been from the start. With a crit slot and tonnage.

[ANOM O MECH]

FuzzyNZ, on 17 January 2018 - 11:21 PM, said:

How about the other way where Consumables are free for a 1 off cost like ammo?

If this game had logistics maybe what you are suggesting might make sense.

It doesn't and this would be punative.

Oh and as one smart fella already said the advantage increase this would give lasers....

I really think you should go see a doctor to find out why you hate all of us.

[The Basilisk]

The real reason is that there was once R&R in this game and ppl yowled to all gods and devils because shooting uselessly around with their ammo dependent weapons would cost them more money than they where able to earn.

LRMs f.e. where hillariously strong and generated splash dmg but also where near impossible to use cost efficient.

Gauss had no charge up but the ammo was EXPENSIVE.

Like dakka ? Well you wouldn't have in CB because every shot makes you twitch when thinking of your purse.

Lasers where comparably weak back then.
The best ammo independent weapon where the PPCs.

[sycocys]

R&R is still probably the best balancing mechanic the game has had.

[storm0545]

Dimento Graven, on 17 January 2018 - 09:59 AM, said:

Rearm and Refit were removed so that players would feel more comfortable brawling. With R&R active you had a LOT of players who refused to do anything but peek and poke, even in 8v1 situations...

That, and I seem to recall that people with little MC were regularly coming to matches with half-busted up 'mechs with little to no ammo because they couldn't afford to completely fix and rearm their 'mechs, but I could be confusing that memory with another game...

I remember those dark times and it was where the term "zombie mech" originally came from especially with the yen lo wang being the poster child of it by stripping the ac20 off and only running the two medium lasers and unchecking rearm/repair to literally run with only the free structure/internal repair they did and 0 armor.

[Water Bear]

Bombast, on 17 January 2018 - 10:30 AM, said:

A noble goal, but barely related to the thread you started.

Good thing I read past his comment to see if anyone else said what I was about to say.

Thumbs way up my man.

[Tom Sawyer]

I still have visions of EA running this or even PGI taking a page from WoW. Ammo pack only 1.99, but wait buy the crate and get 1000 more ammo for only 5.99. Lasers only acting like tags? Well for 10.99 get the holy batcrap pack and watch 1.21 gigawatts go fry your enemies. For just 29.99 get 10 ammo crates, the batcrap laser charge up and we throw in a mechpack! Buy the annual pass just for 99.99 and get all gold ammo, rainbow lasers, and your own long tom arty of nuclear fun usable once per match. Some restrictions apply, discontinue if a rash develops, in some rare cases people have realized just how greedy this really is.

Mechpack anyone?

[FupDup]

The Basilisk, on 18 January 2018 - 08:50 AM, said:

The real reason is that there was once R&R in this game and ppl yowled to all gods and devils because shooting uselessly around with their ammo dependent weapons would cost them more money than they where able to earn.

Shooting around uselessly? RNR penalized you for shooting anywhere. Even if 100% of your fired shots were perfect headshots, you would pay the exact same rearming bill as the guy who shot all of his ammo into the dirt. And of course energy weapons didn't pay anything regardless of accuracy.

RNR wasn't designed to punish recklessness, it was designed to punish people for "playing the game wrong." You want to use any kind of missile or ballistic weapon? You're having fun wrong, pay the tax. You share your armor with teammates instead of letting everybody die while you stay at 99%? Once again, playing the game wrong, now pay up.

Edited by FupDup, 18 January 2018 - 10:49 AM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

sycocys, on 18 January 2018 - 10:23 AM, said:

R&R is still probably the best balancing mechanic the game has had.

It balanced and balances nothing. People strong at this game and already wealthy would continue to be successful and earn c-bills and those who are not would suddenly finally themselves forced into energy only builds in order to keep themselves heads above water in this new grind.

I am curious why you think it balances/d anything however. Meta builds will remain meta builds (most are already energy heavy or energy pure) and weak builds like LRM-focused builds will actually just be worse for players to earn with.

[Snowbluff]

Bombast, on 17 January 2018 - 09:26 AM, said:

Lasers have it good enough as it is, no need to put an even higher burden on ammo weapons, please.

More on point, ammo is required for a match (For shooting). Consumables aren't.

Correction, ammo is required to optimal play. I can just not bring ammo in my guns, it's totally optional.

Hey waits... that's entirely the case with consumable...