181 replies to this topic

[StrikerSW]

Running Grim tonight, Sunspider at full Armor and a Piranha strafes my back armor from a distance of perhaps 300 feet. I loose a heat sink and medium pulse laser, overall armor drops to 94 %. Not the end of the world, but really full armor, and machine guns are already stripping components.

PGI is so concerned about balancing the game which is suppose to be a simulation. Machine gun rounds should not strip components unless the mech's armor is opened up. Machine guns should be ineffective unless the armor has been removed.

Just blowing off steam since I know this is useless to complain about.

[El Bandito]

Yes, MG critting is out of hand. A lot of people are fine with buffing MG damage in return for reducing the crit potential, but so far PGI is mum on the issue.

[Y E O N N E]

El Bandito, on 19 July 2018 - 07:51 PM, said:

Yes, MG critting is out of hand. A lot of people are fine with buffing MG damage in return for reducing the crit potential, but so far PGI is mum on the issue.

This.

Though, given how PGI tends to knee-jerk and makes things useless when they adjust them, I'm more inclined to just leave it alone rather than chance MGs becoming garbage again.

[Requiemking]

StrikerSW, on 19 July 2018 - 07:44 PM, said:

Running Grim tonight, Sunspider at full Armor and a Piranha strafes my back armor from a distance of perhaps 300 feet. I loose a heat sink and medium pulse laser, overall armor drops to 94 %. Not the end of the world, but really full armor, and machine guns are already stripping components.

PGI is so concerned about balancing the game which is suppose to be a simulation. Machine gun rounds should not strip components unless the mech's armor is opened up. Machine guns should be ineffective unless the armor has been removed.

Just blowing off steam since I know this is useless to complain about.

I see you've never heard of through armor crits before. I assure you, this happens in TT, and yes, it can be fatal. Seriously, a Locust, with the right rolls, can one-shot an Atlas through the front CT and completely tear the Atlas' engine apart, despite only dealing two damage to the front armor, and thats without rapid-fire rules. In TT, that Piranha would have simply killed your mech outright, as opposed to just taking a heatsink and MPL.

Edited by Requiemking, 19 July 2018 - 09:15 PM.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

The crit system in general is a wonky mess, and it's ridiculous that components get knocked out so fast with so much health remaining... but that simply doesn't happen before all of the location's armor is gone. Crits don't get rolled in this game until the structure is exposed.

For those in the back: MWO does not have through-armor crits.

Possible explanations for OP's experience:
- Host-client desync causing inaccurate 'Mech status display.
- Hitreg error.
- Simple exaggeration of event in question.
- Depletion of armor on one facing but not the other, then a strike on that hitbox from the opposite facing... which can happen, if part of the front/rear hitbox is visible from the other facing.

Edited by WrathOfDeadguy, 19 July 2018 - 08:06 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Also, the Piranha is not packing only MGs...it does have enough laser firepower to one-shot strip most reasonable back-armor loadings.

[justcallme A S H]

Yeonne Greene, on 19 July 2018 - 07:55 PM, said:

This.

Though, given how PGI tends to knee-jerk and makes things useless when they adjust them, I'm more inclined to just leave it alone rather than chance MGs becoming garbage again.

Problem is it is ONLY a problem for MG Boating mechs, same as most issues with the game - it requires you to boat now, more than ever.

Any mech with only 5-6MGs is not really an issue at all and with a crit reduction would instantly become a wet noodle.

MG boating is just a problem cause by PGI putting out ballistic heavy hardpoint Clan Mechs / Omnipods. If you could only boat 6MGs max this topic wouldn't even be coming up.

[MadHornet]

El Bandito, on 19 July 2018 - 07:51 PM, said:

Yes, MG critting is out of hand. A lot of people are fine with buffing MG damage in return for reducing the crit potential, but so far PGI is mum on the issue.

This is a double-edged sword though. The sustained DPS of PIR's and MLX's with machine guns alone is very high, enough to kneecap unsuspecting 'mechs. Increased damage output will not change their play style. The outcome might change slightly, but your critted weaponry matters less when they are punching through your health faster than before.

[El Bandito]

MadHornet, on 19 July 2018 - 08:29 PM, said:

This is a double-edged sword though. The sustained DPS of PIR's and MLX's with machine guns alone is very high, enough to kneecap unsuspecting 'mechs. Increased damage output will not change their play style. The outcome might change slightly, but your critted weaponry matters less when they are punching through your health faster than before.

I'd rather fight for 10 seconds with all my weapons than having them stripped in 2 seconds from behind with no way to retaliate. I'm sure the exact damage increase can be fine-tuned, but current crit rate is just too unfun.

[Jackal Noble]

The funniest thing is it’s Clan mechs that suffer from a higher crit-ability than their IS brethren. Swear to god.

[Y E O N N E]

Jackal Noble, on 19 July 2018 - 08:37 PM, said:

The funniest thing is it’s Clan mechs that suffer from a higher crit-ability than their IS brethren. Swear to god.

You would think so because of equipment health, but honestly the size (and therefore chance of getting hit) matters far more. An IS UAC/10 goes poof before a Clan one does.

justcallme A S H, on 19 July 2018 - 08:20 PM, said:

MG boating is just a problem cause by PGI putting out ballistic heavy hardpoint Clan Mechs / Omnipods. If you could only boat 6MGs max this topic wouldn't even be coming up.

Maybe, maybe not. I'm critting out things like crazy with my Fire Ant and with my Ember, though obviously it doesn't secure the kill quite as well as the Piranha or Mist Lynx.

Frankly, it's because of the ridiculous crit rate that even LMGs have to hit like so many grains of rice and spread to the point where their range is largely ceremonial, and that HMGs continue to have terrible ammo count. You don't need many to savage internal components, even just 4 will do.

[Daggett]

justcallme A S H, on 19 July 2018 - 08:20 PM, said:

Problem is it is ONLY a problem for MG Boating mechs, same as most issues with the game - it requires you to boat now, more than ever.

Any mech with only 5-6MGs is not really an issue at all and with a crit reduction would instantly become a wet noodle.

MG boating is just a problem cause by PGI putting out ballistic heavy hardpoint Clan Mechs / Omnipods. If you could only boat 6MGs max this topic wouldn't even be coming up.

The problem here is lore. The PIR-1 is supposed to have 12 MGs, it's their key selling point. I'm sure if PGI tries to release such a mech with only half those supposed hardpoints they would face a shitstorm from lore-oriented players.

Personally i don't mind lore that much and would accept a 6MG PIR-1. I also think PGI would have much less problems if they just ditch lore tonnage/slots of equipment.

But to be honest i probably would not have preordered the Piranha with only 6 ballistc slots.

El Bandito, on 19 July 2018 - 08:37 PM, said:

I'd rather fight for 10 seconds with all my weapons than having them stripped in 2 seconds from behind with no way to retaliate. I'm sure the exact damage increase can be fine-tuned, but current crit rate is just too unfun.

While i agree that current crit-rates have a high frustration-potential i don't think that MG damage should be increased any further. It takes the PIR-1 way less than 10s to kill most assaults from behind it's often between 4.5 and 6s depending on structure quirks and skill-nodes. 4.5s is barely enough to react and twist before dying for most players.

Now imagine only having 3s to react or running non-assaults. You and me would make it out alive in that time, but on lower tiers frustration levels and salt would probably go up even more.

[El Bandito]

Daggett, on 20 July 2018 - 02:32 AM, said:

While i agree that current crit-rates have a high frustration-potential i don't think that MG damage should be increased any further. It takes the PIR-1 way less than 10s to kill most assaults from behind it's often between 4.5 and 6s depending on structure quirks and skill-nodes. 4.5s is barely enough to react and twist before dying for most players.

Now imagine only having 3s to react or running non-assaults. You and me would make it out alive in that time, but on lower tiers frustration levels and salt would probably go up even more.

PGI can slap negative RoF quirk on MG mechs carrying over certain amount of MGs.

[LowSubmarino]

Piranhas die soooo quicly. But i gotta admit its pathetically easy to just run up to the back of the nascar traing and then kill assault after assault.

But its the players fault mostly.

They copy builds of really good players with ten thousand times better situational and spatial awerness and copy those back armor values.

If you are just mediorcre.....what are you doing with just 4 - 7 back armor. Tripple that number at the very least if you are a below average or average player. At the very least. You are simply nowhere good enough to survive with low back armor.

MWO QP is nascar. Your back will almost be attacked more heavily than your front. But the funny thing is.....ppl completly and hilariously neglect back armor. When a QP match starts theres already 1 - 3 ppl that are en route right to your back in ffast mechs 1 second into the match. But still you catch ppl with their exposed backs and non existent back armor in every match.

[Mystere]

Seriously, change your playstyle and load outs if you're terrified of the little fishies. <shrugs>

[DGTLDaemon]

Yeah, everyone's talking about how easy it is to eat through back armor and structure... PROVIDED THAT THE ENEMY MECH JUST STANDS STILL AND TAKES IT UP THE A$$. I've spent a lot of time with PIR-1 lately, and while it's very good at destroying mechs that ignore you for whatever reason, once the enemy reacts and starts twisting and turning, it takes forever to eat through all that armor, especially if it's an IS heavy or assault with all those defensive quirks. And I fully expect to hear the "incoming missile" warning no more than a couple of seconds after the intended victim detects me and locks on to me, and to see his buddies coming to his aid in a few more seconds. So no, mass MGs are not easy mode, and I'm not sure why PGI should cater to players with zero situational awareness.

Daggett, on 20 July 2018 - 02:32 AM, said:

While i agree that current crit-rates have a high frustration-potential i don't think that MG damage should be increased any further. It takes the PIR-1 way less than 10s to kill most assaults from behind it's often between 4.5 and 6s depending on structure quirks and skill-nodes. 4.5s is barely enough to react and twist before dying for most players.

Excuse me, but I'm a middle-aged guy with rather poor reflexes and coordination (even can't adequately run more than 2 weapon groups because I start confusing them), and I can tell you that it takes me a lot less than 4.5 seconds to realize that someone is shooting at me from the back and take action. It's probably closer to 2 seconds or so. Now back in the 6xSPL Cheetah days it was different, because the little bugger could actually crawl up your a$$ under ECM cover and put a 36-point alpha into you back before you could react. That got scary sometimes. MG Pirahna, on the other hand, is a DPS mech. It needs time to kill you, and that gives you and your team time to react accordingly.

[Weeny Machine]

StrikerSW, on 19 July 2018 - 07:44 PM, said:

Running Grim tonight, Sunspider at full Armor and a Piranha strafes my back armor from a distance of perhaps 300 feet. I loose a heat sink and medium pulse laser, overall armor drops to 94 %. Not the end of the world, but really full armor, and machine guns are already stripping components.

PGI is so concerned about balancing the game which is suppose to be a simulation. Machine gun rounds should not strip components unless the mech's armor is opened up. Machine guns should be ineffective unless the armor has been removed.

Just blowing off steam since I know this is useless to complain about.

Either it wasn't a short strafing of your back or you equipped hardly any back armour. One is a piloting mistake, the other a mechlab mistake...but both are mistakes.

That being said I'd rather get some damage increase on MGs and a crit reduction.

[Haipyng]

MGs need time firing and to be on target to be effective. The boating of MGs on the PIR1 allows it exploit some pretty common occurrences in MWO, none of which are the fault of the PIR1.

• Bad positioning, as in away from the team and/or out in the open. This give the PIR1 time on your back.
  
• low rear armor- takes less time for the PIR to chew through your armor to get to tasty structure and components.
  
• Ignoring the PIR1. I have had several people just run away from me. Again giving the PIR time on their back.
  
• No arm mounted weapons- I have been killed by face (or crotch) hugging PIR1s in my KDK3 because I put my back against a wall and then couldn't aim low enough to hit the PIR with torso only weapons.

I don't know, I've played the PIR1 and Assaults that have gotten raked by the PIR1. The PIR1 is a high risk, high reward mech to play. I enjoy it as is to play, but when facing them they force you to pay attention to them and really alter the way you usually play the game.

[LordNothing]

Yeonne Greene, on 19 July 2018 - 08:11 PM, said:

Also, the Piranha is not packing only MGs...it does have enough laser firepower to one-shot strip most reasonable back-armor loadings.

those are the best piranha builds imho. maximum machine gun doesnt work nearly as well as mg+laser.

[Daggett]

DGTLDaemon, on 20 July 2018 - 04:04 AM, said:

Excuse me, but I'm a middle-aged guy with rather poor reflexes and coordination (even can't adequately run more than 2 weapon groups because I start confusing them), and I can tell you that it takes me a lot less than 4.5 seconds to realize that someone is shooting at me from the back and take action. It's probably closer to 2 seconds or so.

True, and my situation is similar to yours. But yet i regularly core out assaults in T1 QP who do not react fast enough.
It's okay how it is now, i just think that MGs are already strong enough with current damage values and they should not have the ability to kill anyone who can't react within 2-3s. In my opinion that would be over the top regardless on how good we both could deal with that.