70 replies to this topic

[gooddragon2]

From baradul's vids I get the impression that assaults should share armor and so they shouldn't be hanging back sniping. If that's the case, what's up with the Awesome (particularly the PPC variant)?

Edited by gooddragon2, 18 January 2018 - 08:43 AM.

[Khobai]

depends on the assault

if its a clan assault you can snipe because you dont have any armor to share and you cant torso twist for crap

[ANOM O MECH]

Baradul is for entertainment purposes only.

He is not a top player and his main focus is having fun.

He is also a hardcore brawl fanatic. People with this focus are naturally inclined to dislike assaults at the back.

Stalkers, SuperNovas, and Warhawks all have effective builds for long range. Battlemaster 1G is one of the best mechs at range. There are probably more but I hate assaults and don't play them much.

So if it is something you want to do, follow Baradul's advice on having fun and ignore all of the rest of what he has to say.

[Humpday]

Well your first problem is watching Bradul.
Second, it depends on your awareness and if your build can maintain being on the front line or close to it.

Taking 6ERLLs into the front line where you're are liable to get rush is a bad idea, can you do it yes, but most of the time if you do, you'll eat crap since you will not be able to keep up your damage output for long.

As for the awareness part, well, if your team is getting rolled left and right, well you have no choice, you have to move up. If not you can happily sit in the back and gauss, PPC, ERLL people to death.

More skilled pilots will bring gauss/ermls into a brawl.

Also keep in mind these youtube videos represent the very best of games, they are cherry picked amongst the hours of recording and potatoing.

Edited by Humpday, 18 January 2018 - 08:55 AM.

[Ruccus]

They can snipe, but they should be sniping from second line to the enemy second line. They won't be sharing their armour with brawlers but they'll be sharing their armour with LRM mechs, wounded mechs, and other longer range builds.

To bring up Baradul, I think he recently mentioned in one of his videos about not letting wounded mechs get back to second line - if one gets back there your team's second line snipers have the tools to take them out from a distance before they can do too much extra damage.

Edited by Ruccus, 18 January 2018 - 08:52 AM.

[Bombast]

There's a common misconception here, I think - There's a group of people who insist that hiding behind rocks in an assault is the right move, because 'sharing armor' is a myth and all that matters is winning trades, and there's a group that insists every assault has to be at the absolute front, eatting shots and leading pushes.

Truth is, what assaults need to do is engage, not necessarily push. That's the problem with most players who are sniping - They're not really fighting, just occasionally poking people. An assault should be interacting with the enemy as often as possible, whether its from 100 meters away or 800.

This isn't strictly an assault problem, of course. Light, mediums and heavies often refuse to actually engage as well, often to the detriment of assaults. Ever had a match on Mining Collective where the assaults got isolated and destroyed before they could reach the center? That's often because the lighter mechs refused to engage the enemy, who proceeded to just waltz over to the backline and back stab the assaults.

[VonBruinwald]

Khobai, on 18 January 2018 - 08:46 AM, said:

if its a clan assault you can snipe because you dont have any armor to share and you cant torso twist for crap

And IS assaults should snipe because they don't have the speed to reposition as often and can't boat the insane short range alpha clan mechs can... unless they one-shot rockets.


But yes, it comes down to the mechs. As a general rule Assaults should be on the front line but there are exceptions, Stalkers and Warhawks being the best examples, sniping in a King Crab or Dire Wolf is just a waste of tonnage though.

[Bud Crue]

Beats me. I play one way: TO THE FRONT!

Alas, charging to the front in a 6ERLL Battlemaster (that I am running because some good player told me is meta) may allow me to “share armor” but it also means that I am wasting the possible potential of the thing as I may get to fire those ERLLs about 5-6 times before I run out of cool shots and/or get focused down. I’m too stupid to think to myself, “hey maybe this meta build doesn't really fit my lack of meta skills”, so I keep running to the front, as I always do, and shaking my fist at the mecha gods in frustration because “why oh why can I not make this mech work!”. Maybe if I held back a bit and used those ERLL’s as they are intended and had some time as i approach to let them cool down, I might be more of an asset to the team by shooting more targets as opposed to merely sharing some armor and meat shielding for the better players while I try to cool down in the midst of a brawl.

So OP, in my very humble opinion: it depends, and you need to have better presence of mind than some people -ahem- to know when to get in there and when to maybe hold back a tad.

[El Bandito]

Many Assaults have crap for agility and huge hitboxes. Unmatched firepower is their only signature. So it stands to reason that Assaults should use that incredible firepower for as long as they can--which is not possible while staying in the front.

[Davegt27]

yeah this is Alpha warrior online

I bet if someone analyzed effective time in battle the numbers for assaults would be very low

if assaults make a mistake in positioning they are done
so it would not be a bad idea for them to wait and then move in after first contact

OP just because an Assault snipes does not mean they cant move in later
the key/keys are knowing when to move in

for example on nascar maps they better be moving from the start

JMTCW

[Leone]

Yes, you can snipe whilst up front sharing armour. In my unit it'd ball called standing overwatch, mostly for counter sniping whilst the team moves into the brawl. There's no reason not to move with the group, and, if you wanna peel off once your armour's breached, then by all means. Those of us who do brawl all day, every day, appreciate having someone who can reach out an slap folk for daring to try sniping the murder-ball. Move with us, we'll keep you safe from flankers.

Just remember, taking yourself off the line of fire means helping the enemy focus fire better. Sure, once in a skirmish with everyone going everywhere, hide 'n poke best as you can, but if the team is moving forward in the open, as a long ranged mech, your better served making yourself a target with the rest so those snipers wanna shoot you, sparing the brawler's armour for the brawl. (Human nature, we wanna shoot whose shooting us.)

Think RTS or tactical games. You don't split your party, you wanna cycle out wounded units, you wanna share armour to keep as much firepower in the field as possible. Just because you're sniping doesn't mean you can't be a team player.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 18 January 2018 - 09:26 AM.

[Hellbringer]

i would say it depends on your team. If they are pushing, you should lead. If you are just static, you should stay and snipe.

If your loadout is for range, then snipe. if you are brawler than brawl.

[C E Dwyer]

Bombast, on 18 January 2018 - 08:54 AM, said:

There's a common misconception here, I think - There's a group of people who insist that hiding behind rocks in an assault is the right move, because 'sharing armor' is a myth and all that matters is winning trades, and there's a group that insists every assault has to be at the absolute front, eatting shots and leading pushes.

Truth is, what assaults need to do is engage, not necessarily push. That's the problem with most players who are sniping - They're not really fighting, just occasionally poking people. An assault should be interacting with the enemy as often as possible, whether its from 100 meters away or 800.

This isn't strictly an assault problem, of course. Light, mediums and heavies often refuse to actually engage as well, often to the detriment of assaults. Ever had a match on Mining Collective where the assaults got isolated and destroyed before they could reach the center? That's often because the lighter mechs refused to engage the enemy, who proceeded to just waltz over to the backline and back stab the assaults.

This

[Gas Guzzler]

Assaults are slow so they are best suited for Mid to extreme range so they don't have to get too close and commit. Brawling assaults exist and can be very successful, but its dependent on some other variables.

I know people complain about not sharing armor, but in the pug queue in a 6 ER LL Supernova, its possible to pick a heavy before anyone on your team takes ANY damage. So, there is really nothing wrong with sniping assaults, they can be very deadly and significantly improve the teams map control.

[KingCobra]

Gas Guzzler, on 18 January 2018 - 09:45 AM, said:

Assaults are slow so they are best suited for Mid to extreme range so they don't have to get too close and commit. Brawling assaults exist and can be very successful, but its dependent on some other variables.

I know people complain about not sharing armor, but in the pug queue in a 6 ER LL Supernova, its possible to pick a heavy before anyone on your team takes ANY damage. So, there is really nothing wrong with sniping assaults, they can be very deadly and significantly improve the teams map control.

I totally agree with this a good example is the new MadCat MK2 with twin Gauss rifles and its more viable for a assault to mid range and snipe as it is not used by the whole team as a meat shield.

[Mister Glitchdragon]

Consider a typical sniping weapon, the Gauss Rifle. Lots of tonnage, lots of slots, low rounds/ton (so it uses up still more slots/tonnage). It also explodes when you look at it funny, meaning it is ideally situated behind as much armor as possible. Gauss, and especially Heavy Gauss, are custom made for big mechs, especially if you want to bring more than one.

I know, I know: "Bu-bu-bu meh Light Gauss!" Sure, you can play, too, little fella! Just don't get in daddy's way while he's working.

[Roughneck45]

The question isn't whether a weight class can snipe or not, its whether the pilot can hit his targets and stay engaged for the duration of the fight.

Edited by Roughneck45, 18 January 2018 - 09:53 AM.

[CFC Conky]

Bombast, on 18 January 2018 - 08:54 AM, said:

...

Truth is, what assaults need to do is engage, not necessarily push. That's the problem with most players who are sniping - They're not really fighting, just occasionally poking people. An assault should be interacting with the enemy as often as possible, whether its from 100 meters away or 800.

...

Pretty much this although I would opine that Assaults should try to stay close enough to the front line so they can take advantage of opportunities to push.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[Khobai]

Quote

And IS assaults should snipe because they don't have the speed to reposition as often and can't boat the insane short range alpha clan mechs can... unless they one-shot rockets.

dire wolf doesnt exactly have any speed either

not all of the clan assaults are fast. and the ones that are fast like the executioner or kodiak tend to have horrible downsides. deathstrike is really the only unconditionally good assault clans have and thats soon to get nerfed.

and short range is not where clan assaults want to be, they die horribly in brawls against IS mechs. short range alpha is not really one of clan's strengths. midrange is more their strong suit.

Edited by Khobai, 18 January 2018 - 11:11 AM.

[Asym]

El Bandito, on 18 January 2018 - 09:16 AM, said:

Many Assaults have crap for agility and huge hitboxes. Unmatched firepower is their only signature. So it stands to reason that Assaults should use that incredible firepower for as long as they can--which is not possible while staying in the front.

OK, what Bombast and El Bandito have said is true. But, we have a paradox MWO has created:

Op-Tempo is created by the units that make contact in a movement to contact. What that means for you non-military players is that when the first mech starts the fight, those mechs control the speed and depth of the fight.

If assault mechs make contact, being slower, the tempo focuses on that small area and allows faster mechs to exploit flanks and "seams" the contact creates because those light, medium and fast heavies are not the immediate focus.... The assaults establish the tempo that allows everyone else opportunities to engage to their weight advantages....

If non-assaults make contact, being they are faster and not designed to take long periods of direct fire, the engagement immediately splinters into smaller fights extending the battle space in width and depth.... If assaults aren't there, they can not contribute to the combat mass and their armor is wasted. Most importantly, assaults can't keep up in a running gun fight and are destroyed piece meal....

Roles have a lot of validity in land combat. Endless meta and the ability to illogically modify vehicles only makes it worse. Now, it's just a game and who really cares........but, what we are seeing is that what happens when military theory is proving itself valid in game play..... Assaults have a role to play in this game and if they refuse that role, anarchy ensues. Sorry, it's just a reality of the physics of land warfare.....