325 replies to this topic

[PFC Carsten]

justcallme A S H, on 21 January 2018 - 03:48 AM, said:

All of you Clan apologists posting up how "crippling" this heat change is... I have a question. Have ANY of you actually done the numbers/maths behind it?

Now I already know the answer is no, because if you did you would realise this poses basically no really discernible threat to the best weapons in the game right now - Clan Energy.

Maybe people are agitated because they feel that the clans have been handed the short end of the stick repeatedly and too often? Just a thought, not calling anyone apologist or white knight though.

[GweNTLeR]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 21 January 2018 - 08:45 AM, said:

I will give you the DHS's if you throw in the IS ERPeePs and Heavy PeePs as well.

Actually, IS ERPPC is by no means superior to C-ERPPC. It weighs 1t more, takes 1slot more and does not deal splash. Sure it has a bit higher velocity and a bit lower heat gen, but that doesn't compensate all the cool stuff the clan has.
H-PPCS weight ALOT and no IS mech below 65t can boat them effectively. Combine it with smaller range and the necessity for secondary weapons(ofc if you dont wanna be killed by a first light) and exactly the same CD C-ERPPC will have.I'm not even talking about velocity.
I just recently switched from being IS loyalist (for 3 years) to clan, and I can say for sure that C-ERPPC is more effective than those you mentioned.
Meanwhile, clan DHS are actually superior without and doubt.

[D V Devnull]

On a TOTALLY UNRELATED note to all the madness happening in this thread right now... With the Last HotFix back in December, the MWO Client Version is 1.4.146 at current. Yet, these Upcoming Monthly Patch Notes show a Version of 1.4.145 to be delivered. Are we about to have a Regression in something, or perhaps did someone Increment the Game Version too easily and quickly? Some clarification from PGI would be very much in order, because I've seen things from Other Games that didn't work due to their Server not accepting the Version Number. Maybe this was supposed to be 1.4.147 instead?

~D. V. "Yeah, I really track these hard-to-notice things." Devnull




[Minor Edit by Post Author for Thought Clarity.]

Edited by D V Devnull, 21 January 2018 - 09:40 AM.

[Luminis]

PFC Carsten, on 21 January 2018 - 09:15 AM, said:

Maybe people are agitated because they feel that the clans have been handed the short end of the stick repeatedly and too often? Just a thought, not calling anyone apologist or white knight though.

Well...
Clans
||||||||||| Clans
||||||||||| ||||||||||| Clans
||||||||||| ||||||||||| ||||||||||| Clans
||||||||||| ||||||||||| ||||||||||| |||||||||||
IS ---> IS ---> IS ---> IS
It's hard to feel sorry for Clan loyalists for getting the short end of the stick multiple times in a row when they've had the long end of the stick for so long, y'know?

Edited by Luminis, 21 January 2018 - 09:43 AM.

[SuperFunkTron]

InnerSphereNews, on 19 January 2018 - 08:29 PM, said:

Clan ER PPC


• Cooldown increased to 5 (from 4.5).


[color="#3073f3"]Clan ER PPC Design Notes:[/color][color="#3073f3"] While we are satisfied with the ER PPCs effectiveness in ranged combat, this change is intended to provide a slightly longer window over which closer-ranged opponents can attempt to pressure Clan ER PPC carriers when they are caught out of position.[/color]

I understand this reasoning, but has the Warhawk Prime really become that dangerous consistently for it to take yet another nerf to what is essentially its only weapon (let's not even pretend that the lrm10s are worth keeping instead of more heat sinks).

If the Warhawk wasn't the issue, could we get some erPPC coold down quirks so it doesn't become so painfully slow to shoot with?

P.S.: On a related note, are we looking at a post Civil War update on the way weapons look for the Warhawk any time soon? Also,will some of the missing variants such as D,F, and H eventually be added in game? Each of those mechs has at least one omnipod that is unique and would provide some badly needed hard point variation.

[GweNTLeR]

SuperFunkTron, on 21 January 2018 - 09:51 AM, said:

I understand this reasoning, but has the Warhawk Prime really become that dangerous consistently for it to take yet another nerf to what is essentially its only weapon (let's not even pretend that the lrm10s are worth keeping instead of more heat sinks).

If the Warhawk wasn't the issue, could we get some erPPC coold down quirks so it doesn't become so painfully slow to shoot with?

I think it is not related to a warhawk since you are heat capped after 4 shots. Summoner maybe?

[MechaBattler]

Can we get the same quirk treatment to all mechs?

[Y E O N N E]

GweNTLeR, on 21 January 2018 - 09:34 AM, said:

Actually, IS ERPPC is by no means superior to C-ERPPC. It weighs 1t more, takes 1slot more and does not deal splash. Sure it has a bit higher velocity and a bit lower heat gen, but that doesn't compensate all the cool stuff the clan has.
H-PPCS weight ALOT and no IS mech below 65t can boat them effectively. Combine it with smaller range and the necessity for secondary weapons(ofc if you dont wanna be killed by a first light) and exactly the same CD C-ERPPC will have.I'm not even talking about velocity.
I just recently switched from being IS loyalist (for 3 years) to clan, and I can say for sure that C-ERPPC is more effective than those you mentioned.
Meanwhile, clan DHS are actually superior without and doubt.

Not even anything over 65 tons can really run a pair of HPPC that well. A cERPPC generates the same heat as an HPPC, but a Summoner runs 22-24 DHS to cool a pair. Even an HBK-IIC-A runs 20 DHS to cool them. A 65 tonner only gets ~17 DHS to cool a pair of HPPC, and an Assault only gets ~19, which is not much of an upgrade. Throw in the implications from all the other drawbacks, and you have a sub-par build.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 21 January 2018 - 11:20 AM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

GweNTLeR, on 21 January 2018 - 09:34 AM, said:

Actually, IS ERPPC is by no means superior to C-ERPPC. It weighs 1t more, takes 1slot more and does not deal splash. Sure it has a bit higher velocity and a bit lower heat gen, but that doesn't compensate all the cool stuff the clan has.
H-PPCS weight ALOT and no IS mech below 65t can boat them effectively. Combine it with smaller range and the necessity for secondary weapons(ofc if you dont wanna be killed by a first light) and exactly the same CD C-ERPPC will have.I'm not even talking about velocity.
I just recently switched from being IS loyalist (for 3 years) to clan, and I can say for sure that C-ERPPC is more effective than those you mentioned.
Meanwhile, clan DHS are actually superior without and doubt.

Well see you forgot one very important thing. The IS ERPPC will cool down a full second faster. It does not matter if it's objectively worse weapon. I want the tempo that a 4 second and below cooldown brings. That's all that matters to me. It might be a weaker weapon, but it fills the niche I WANT, instead of the niche PGI artificially wants the cERPPC to have.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

GweNTLeR, on 21 January 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:

I think it is not related to a warhawk since you are heat capped after 4 shots. Summoner maybe?

I really don't understand why the cERPPC needs this nerf. The problem child probably is the summoner, and if that is the case, take away some of the Summoners G.D. PPC cooldown quirks instead of nerfing the whole weapons cooldown again.

[Asutaroto]

Yeonne Greene, on 19 January 2018 - 10:32 PM, said:

I would say AC/20 are underperforming rather than HGR are over-performing. AC/20 have been underperforming for years now, starting with when they added ghost heat to two of them fired together. They need a velocity buff and that GH removed.

And 40 PPFLD at 600 meters from HGauss? Please, it's 22 with a pair.

Max is 900 meters, new optimum is 220. Fall-off is 25/ (900-220) = 0.0367. So 380 meters to 600 means that our damage is 25-380(0.0367) = 11.029. Multiply by 2 and it's 22.06.

If we've got 15% range from the skill tree (253 m optimal, 966 m max), we go up to 24.3 damage at 600 meters.

...

And you've still got the poor ammo/ton, cockpit shake, explosive squishy guns, and STD engine requirements.

Not to mention that the clans just got a mech that boats 12 MGs at 145 kph. That combined with the ridiculous crit chance on HGR will probably balance out with the slight range buff.

[QueenBlade]

I'll continue with Greene's explanation.

The weapon isn't just the only thing that should be looked at here, but what allows you to continue firing said weapon.

The heat sinks, and what Greene says is spot on. Every 2 Inner Sphere DHS is 3 Clan DHS in terms of space. Followed with Engine weight also allowing more. In the end, to "balance" IS and Clan in terms of a give and take system. Allowing IS heat sinks to have say, more heat capacity (threshold) since it takes up more crit slots, while the Clan version could do more heat bleed off due to its smaller size or vice versa.

I understand that with Lore, Clan tech is supposed to be superior in every way, but if people want balance, that sort of thought process needs to bend.

Using the TDR-9SE as an example against the SMN PPC build.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4939aee89e027c4

I was able to get 19 DHS on the mech, I tried to do it with a STD engine (230) for the crit space, but was only able to get 18.

Edit: Went and did a GHR so it was at least the same tonnage as the SMN
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c9204fa1e13fcf1
21 DHS

So either we continue allowing IS mechs to use pre-installed quirks or we try to balance the techs themselves in some sort of give/take system to allow for the crit space and tonnage.

Edited by QueenBlade, 21 January 2018 - 12:05 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Clam Apologists are a silly bunch

Yeonne Greene, on 21 January 2018 - 11:19 AM, said:

Not even anything over 65 tons can really run a pair of HPPC that well. A cERPPC generates the same heat as an HPPC, but a Summoner runs 22-24 DHS to cool a pair. Even an HBK-IIC-A runs 20 DHS to cool them. A 65 tonner only gets ~17 DHS to cool a pair of HPPC, and an Assault only gets ~19, which is not much of an upgrade. Throw in the implications from all the other drawbacks, and you have a sub-par build.

I've had some fun with the Griffin Hero recently
A silly build, with max HoverJets™ (7?) and 14 heatsinks

No cool, by any means, but its fun, and moderately effective.
That's 55 tons with adequate mounts (similar to a Summoner? Slightly worse)
He has 10% heat, and many heat nodes however.


Nowhere near as durable, as I go the XL300 route, instead of a possible LFE280 without joke amounts of JJs

[Korvus Knull]

So the clans take a 21.5 percent hit on heat gen with the new node adjustment. Now we know what the skill tree was designed for, to stack bonuses on IS quirks while pretending to give a few crumbs to clans while saying balance. IS get tonnage and heavier quirk bonuses in faction play and the supposed 'advanced tech' of the clans is more fragile, runs hotter and durations are longer. All for some damage bonus and a little range? Just advance the timeline to 3150 and all your problems go away. PGI needs to focus on the hackers more as well some of the 'regular' cheats are ruining the joy of the game.

[Mcgral18]

Stephan T Warstrider, on 21 January 2018 - 02:08 PM, said:

So the clans take a 21.5 percent hit on heat gen with the new node adjustment. Now we know what the skill tree was designed for, to stack bonuses on IS quirks while pretending to give a few crumbs to clans while saying balance. IS get tonnage and heavier quirk bonuses in faction play and the supposed 'advanced tech' of the clans is more fragile, runs hotter and durations are longer. All for some damage bonus and a little range? Just advance the timeline to 3150 and all your problems go away. PGI needs to focus on the hackers more as well some of the 'regular' cheats are ruining the joy of the game.

justcallme A S H, on 21 January 2018 - 03:48 AM, said:

All of you Clan apologists posting up how "crippling" this heat change is... I have a question. Have ANY of you actually done the numbers/maths behind it?

Now I already know the answer is no, because if you did you would realise this poses basically no really discernible threat to the best weapons in the game right now - Clan Energy.

If you actually want to educate yourselves on this change rather than flutter about like a bunch of rustled chickens - start READING FROM HERE. You can see the actual numbers over two separate areas and well, Clan Energy will still be king. You can all sleep easy tonight that nothing has really changed, in fact pretty much all of it is unchanged when you're talking 0.2 sec more to cool off... Whoopdeeedoo.

lol


Silly Clam Apologists

plzgitgud

[justcallme A S H]

QueenBlade, on 21 January 2018 - 12:00 PM, said:

I understand that with Lore, Clan tech is supposed to be superior in every way, but if people want balance, that sort of thought process needs to bend.

Bravo good sir!

Couldn't agree more. To balance a FPS based on Battletech, the idea that Clan "must be better" needs to go. Although 5 years down the track and that hasn't happened, suggests it probably won't

Stephan T Warstrider, on 21 January 2018 - 02:08 PM, said:

So the clans take a 21.5 percent hit on heat gen with the new node adjustment.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Read the thread I linked and Mcgral just copied again for you.

It is less than 0.20 seconds extra to cool off. It is a utterly insignificant change.


It's actually so insignificant I'm not even sure how PGI came to the conclusion to make these changes. It's almost like this is a "test' on the live servers for something greater.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

I was able to adapt a my favorite mech and grab an 8 piece omnipod quirk that will exactly compensate for the PPC cooldown nerf.

Current CD: 4.5 seconds.
New CD: 5 seconds.

5 seconds -10% = 4.5 seconds after 8 piece set bonus.

I had to pay by giving up my lower arm actuator, and my invasion varient c-bill bonus, so I'm still not happy, but at least I can still use the same play-style for now. Seriously though, if they beat the cERPPCs cooldown one more time, I'm done.

[SuperFunkTron]

GweNTLeR, on 21 January 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:

I think it is not related to a warhawk since you are heat capped after 4 shots. Summoner maybe?

If you upgrade the warhawk and add as many heatsinks as possible and control your fire appropriately, you are able to keep up a decent stream of fire. The biggest problem isn't so much having people close in on you as having to wait so long between shots on a weapon that requires a lot of skill to hit small and fast targets. Even if this change is not aimed at the warhawk prime, it affects it pretty significantly.

[Korvus Knull]

Now that the Clan erppc is a full second slower to cycle and runs hotter, can the supposed more advanced Clan erppc go at least as fast as the inner sphere counterpart why 1500 verses IS 1900 base speed? If not can I please use IS on my clan mech? ALSO when can Clan standard auto cannons start using single shot rounds? Nobody uses them for the extra space they take up if they can't shoot single shot what' the point?

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Stephan T Warstrider, on 21 January 2018 - 02:30 PM, said:

Now that the Clan erppc is a full second slower to cycle and runs hotter, can the supposed more advanced Clan erppc go at least as fast as the inner sphere counterpart why 1500 verses IS 1900 base speed? If not can I please use IS on my clan mech? ALSO when can Clan standard auto cannons start using single shot rounds? Nobody uses them for the extra space they take up if they can't shoot single shot what' the point?

I'd prefer they didn't up the velocity, because then they'll just use that as an excuse to nerf something more important later. I feel like velocity isn't much trouble anyway once you get the muscle memory down.