40 replies to this topic

[Kalimaster]

Yeah, I'm inner sphere, but still I am protesting this move to reduce Clan Heat Values in the Skill Tree. How about buffing something instead.

So how do you like your Clan Mechs now, Well Done, or Extra Crispy.

What's next in the name of fairness, reducing engine speeds provided to Clan Mechs by 50%.

[Vat Born Villain]

Most clan mechs will not even notice the difference. We are talking 1 to 2 points of heat.

[Johnathan Tanner]

Do not question your balance overlord. Also would you like to buy a mechpack?

[Khobai]

Quote

Most clan mechs will not even notice the difference. We are talking 1 to 2 points of heat.

its both a dissipation loss AND a heat capacity loss though. so it will be barely noticeable.

but thats not the point. the point is nerfing clans is getting really old and it wouldve been better not to nerf clans and instead buff ISDHS by making them all true double heatsinks.


25 DHS is fairly standard for a clan laservomit mech... so at 2.0/1.4 thats 41 dissipation

while 19 DHS is fairly standard for an IS laser vomit mech... so at 2.0/2.0 (instead of 2.0/1.4 like it is now) that would be 38 dissipation

not exactly equal but far closer than it is now. a lot of IS mechs have -5% or -10% heat generation quirks as well so its pretty damn close for those mechs. turning IS DHS into true doubles wouldve been the easiest way to help balance the heat disparity.

Edited by Khobai, 22 January 2018 - 10:10 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Kinda liking that someone's sticking up for the clans here. Too often I hear about how clans whine so hard, yet all I've seen recently is IS whining over the thought of the new Clan 20 tonner and the ULTRA MINOR "nerf" to the Assassin-21. Meanwhile the Clans lose half of the max range on MPLs, their ERPPCS go from 12.5% longer cooldowns than the IS ones to 25% longer cooldowns, they get a blanket nerf to all mechs using the skill tree's heatgen nodes, and IS gets some buffs.


Still, I dislike the clan heat gen node nerf, it hurts DPS builds much more than the laser vomit builds. Laser vomit build just waits an extra second or two behind cover then peaks out, meanwhile DPS build just flat out has less sustained DPS and must disengage or die earlier than normal.

Hopefully it is small enough to not really notice much though.

[Vat Born Villain]

The change does not change the values of dissipation or capacity. It only changes the heat generated by the weapons if you take all of the heat gen nodes.

[sycocys]

How about they just remove the skill node system entirely - then they don't have to nerf the silly buff system.

[Bombast]

Dakota1000, on 22 January 2018 - 10:04 AM, said:

Still, I dislike the clan heat gen node nerf, it hurts DPS builds much more than the laser vomit builds.

Thats the annoying bit. Not the change itself, which is likely minor, but how it further promotes one of the builds that many find the most problematic, balance wise. Nerfs to ERMLs promote long waits, thus laser vomit. Nerfing ERPPCs makes lasers more attractive. Nerfing MPL range because it operated (poorly) in the same range space. I don't think they're herding people towards vomit on purpose, but it sure does feel like it sometimes.

[El Bandito]

Don't nerf the tree, nerf the equipments instead.

Khobai, on 22 January 2018 - 10:00 AM, said:

its both a dissipation loss AND a heat capacity loss though. so it will be barely noticeable.

but thats not the point. the point is nerfing clans is getting really old and it wouldve been better not to nerf clans and instead buff ISDHS by making them all true double heatsinks.


25 DHS is fairly standard for a clan laservomit mech... so at 2.0/1.4 thats 41 dissipation

while 19 DHS is fairly standard for an IS laser vomit mech... so at 2.0/2.0 that would be 38 dissipation

That will only encourage more laser vomiting, something that is already dominating the game. We want a little less las-vomit actually, and more of others. That's why I want node values to stay the same for both sides, but CDHS nerfed.

Edited by El Bandito, 22 January 2018 - 10:13 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Bombast, on 22 January 2018 - 10:11 AM, said:

Thats the annoying bit. Not the change itself, which is likely minor, but how it further promotes one of the builds that many find the most problematic, balance wise. Nerfs to ERMLs promote long waits, thus laser vomit. Nerfing ERPPCs makes lasers more attractive. Nerfing MPL range because it operated (poorly) in the same range space. I don't think they're herding people towards vomit on purpose, but it sure does feel like it sometimes.

Basically the state of balance over the past year or so. Everything has just been getting nerfed in such a way that only high alpha laser vomit builds are competitive or things that entirely outrange them. We had the nerfing of ballistics, UACs pretty much crushed, nerfing of spread on missiles, nerfing of artemis to further increase spread, nerfing of gauss+PPC builds, nerfing of torso twisting so that long duration beam weapons are more effective, nerfing of CERPPC, nerfing of ERML cooldowns and durations so they pair up more nicely with HLL, nerfing of CLPL (and IS LPL), nerfing of CMPL, now we're on second nerf of CERPPC and CMPL, oh also CSPLs getting blasted so that HLL+ERML combos have nothing to fear from light mechs.

Pretty much just undo like all of those changes and suddenly we have a diverse meta again filled with UAC boats, gauss+PPC overwatchers, 6 ERML builds as a DPS/Alpha hybrid, 6 MPL boats doing the same thing but at shorter ranges with a bit more alpha damage and DPS at the cost of DOUBLE THE WEIGHT, SRM boats that don't just spray all the torso sections, dual LPL harassers back in action, people actually using the UAC20 for something again on a Clan mech, CSPL brawlers and lights that can compete with the Wolfhound, ERPPC boats, brawlers actually being able to twist, and more.


Like really, has no one else been seeing the trend all this time?

[El Bandito]

Dakota1000, on 22 January 2018 - 10:21 AM, said:

Like really, has no one else been seeing the trend all this time?

I'm actually fine if every weapon types are nerfed overall, but the diversity is still there--cause I like longer TTK. However, not every weapon was nerfed into similar competence, so we have this las-vomit dominance.

[Hobbles v]

No oppinion here just putting raw numbers up on what the change means because people hyperbole too much.

2HLL 4cerml Hellbringer Aplha is 57.2 heat one of the most heat intensive meta mechs.

Current max heat gen nodes save 6.006 heat per shot
New max will save 4.8048
The difference is 1.2012 heat per shot.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

El Bandito, on 22 January 2018 - 10:24 AM, said:

I'm actually fine if every weapon types are nerfed overall, but the diversity is still there--cause I like longer TTK. However, not every weapon was nerfed into similar competence, so we have this las-vomit dominance.

I preferred the lower TTKs to be honest, it was somewhat of a requirement for many of the builds to function well without taking too much return fire. Still, I'm expecting the trend to continue, I just have no idea when laser vomit will be nerfed down and we have nothing that's actually good anymore and have to pick up the pieces to find things that work out well.

I'm expecting after laser vomit gets nerfed, if its nerfed hard enough, then PPC poptarting will just take back over in full as the laser builds won't be able to put effective damage onto them to out trade.

[Samedi Wretch]

I was pretty okay with this nerf. While the heatnodes give equal relative benefit to both factions, they give more absolute benefit to clans because they already have greater heat dissipation and capacity due to more heat sinks.

However, why the F did c-mpl's need another nerf?

Edited by samadhiVOID, 23 January 2018 - 07:21 AM.

[process]

The change is annoying because it doesn't tangibly address energy boating. It's also annoying because screwing with skill tree values means having to re-evaluate the whole cool run vs heat gen thing again.

The biggest issue though it it's not a good way to deal with balance. If Clan heat is an issue, it should be done on a weapon-by-weapon basis.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

I may have to function test my blaster lolpha Cougar and Adder just to make certain, but I'm pretty sure even they can still safely alpha with the changes.

[Natred]

someone said heat gen quirks were not properly working for clan anyways. Soo who cares if they nerf something that was not even being used? oh no that was pgi 5 months ago.. still prolly not fixed.

[naterist]

I like the thought of buffing IS equipment so that IS can get builds that can match clans, but in rjbass's interview, chris lowery admited he has difficulty doing changes to equipment, since it requires more of pirahnas team to change those values.

So unless he can convince russ bullock and paul I. then were boned. So were boned, because those 2 dont have time for mwo, theyre all about mw5 and solaris rn.

[Luminis]

Natred, on 23 January 2018 - 08:38 AM, said:

someone said heat gen quirks were not properly working for clan anyways. Soo who cares if they nerf something that was not even being used? oh no that was pgi 5 months ago.. still prolly not fixed.

Those were the heat dissipation quirks that were intrinsic to specific 'Mechs. Entirely different thing from the heat gen nodes in the Skill Tree that are gonna get nerfed.

[adamts01]

Dakota1000, on 22 January 2018 - 10:21 AM, said:

Basically the state of balance over the past year or so. Everything has just been getting nerfed in such a way that only high alpha laser vomit builds are competitive or things that entirely outrange them.

But boats will still be the best option if we revert the nerfs. Nothing will change except for drastically lowering ttk. I hate Ghost Heat but if we don't include an accuracy penalty when dumping alphas then Ghost Heat is the next best option. This heat nerf will hurt plenty mechs that really need help, but it'll help to tone down some OP mechs like the Hellbringer.