77 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

Kaeb Odellas, on 20 January 2018 - 07:36 PM, said:

I don't like the Clan heat skill nerf because they shouldn't be using the skill tree to balance the factions.

Or tonnage.

[Luminis]

Unconditionally Like:

• HGR buff. Makes committing to it more worthwhile and since anything that carries two HGRs is awfully slow, getting into effective range easier is neat. I kinda doubt that a single HGR is gonna be worth it even with the additional range, but it's still gonna be better than before.
  
• LGR buff. Still pretty sure it's not gonna see much play but, well, buffing unused equipment is a good move.
  
• SHD buffs. Same as the LGR, I guess.

Somewhat Like:

• Clan Heat Gen nerf. The nerf is so small it won't really do anything but again, they at least got the right idea: The reason Clans can run hotter equipment and effectively run cooler still thanks to cDHS boating kinda negates their designated drawback. Using the ST is better than fiddling with the weapons by adding .1 heat or whatever to the lasers, but targeting the cDHS directly might have been smarter.

Indifferent:

• cMPL nerf: The premier laser vomit pieces are the ERMLs and whatever larges players want to couple with them. Seems like barking up the wrong tree but nerfing the max range won't matter as much as nerfing optimal range. Plus... Well, having damn good lasers in the ~ 350m bracket isn't helping brawling weapons like SRMs.

Dislike:

• cERPP nerf: That 0.5 second cooldown isn't gonna break the weapon, especially since it's mostly heat limited anyway, but the only 'Mechs that seem to be really threatening with the Clan Peepers are the Summoner and the Warhawk, so I'd prefer stripping the PPC quirks off of them over nerfing the weapon.
  
• Assassin nerf: It was annoying as hell but at least wasn't another laser or MG boat; plus, the issue were the hitboxes, so changing quirks is a weird solution on top of that.

[Snowbluff]

FupDup, on 20 January 2018 - 04:58 PM, said:

I don't think the Clam ER Peeper needed to be hit right now, given that the current craze is laser vomit right? That's just going to reinforce it.

I agree. Heat nodes hurt the laser vom, but it also hits the Pepsi really hard.

[D V Devnull]

Yeah, folks, PGI really blew it on this one. Frankly, if they're having issues with the cMPL, they could have lowered the GH Limit to only 4 or 5, but taking away range was unnecessary and it will finish breaking an EXE that I designed... And the cERPPC was already on the edge of being totally obsolete, but now I'm stuck with two SHCs and an ACH probably needing a redesign that I couldn't pull out often anyway. Stack with that the Clan Heat Gen Skill Nodes, and all my Clan Designs are now going to have severe heat issues due to being non-standard designs specifically set up for my Support-style operation. I was still leveling many of them, and already had to push them to the edge to even have a chance of being effective, but now they're going to overheat at least 20% more often. If this isn't clear proof that PGI hates clans and wants to see them driven into death like the Lore, I don't know what is, even with their key Mech (Piranha) being a Clan Mech.

Heck, doesn't anyone understand what caused the Clans to be created in the first place? Heck, I only went Clan Loyalist because an Inner Sphere Faction stepped all over My Personal Principles and wanted something I didn't have the (C-Bills) for at the time... But now, it looks like PGI is trying to use Game Balance in order to Force Faction Changes too.

Heck... Is PGI trying to get me to run more LRMs/ATMs or something? Or have they turned into Brainless Dakka Freaks?

~Mr. D. V. "Does NOT take well to being shoved on..." Devnull




[Minor Edit by Post Author for a Missed Thought!]

Edited by D V Devnull, 21 January 2018 - 08:28 AM.

[Luminis]

D V Devnull, on 21 January 2018 - 08:25 AM, said:

I was still leveling many of them, and already had to push them to the edge to even have a chance of being effective, but now they're going to overheat at least 20% more often.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 20 January 2018 - 05:10 PM, said:

I think a key factor in the rise of the CMPL is that PGI buffed its heat, cooldown, and duration during their attempt to make pulse lasers into DPS. That pushed it over the edge.

TBH, our balance overlord doesn't understand how DPS works. Let alone the fact that lasers don't shoot forever like dakka (duration ontop of cooldown for lasers) and typical usage is always in bursts... which is why people talk in burst/alpha damage instead.

But hey, let's talk about DPS that Gauss or SRMs provide... because you know... reasons.

Edited by Deathlike, 21 January 2018 - 08:40 AM.

[D V Devnull]

Luminis, on 21 January 2018 - 08:30 AM, said:

Yeah, PGI's pretty well gone and wrecked my Mech Stable. Now I'm a Clanner that will be without a Clan Mech to use, and I already had trouble with a bunch of my Inner Sphere Mechs. It's ironically destructive to MWO itself, like PGI doesn't want any Non-Competitive Players around. Heck, maybe "MechWarrior: Living Legends" is sounding good now?

~D. V. "There goes all but the E-Sports Crowd..." Devnull




[Minor Edit by Post Author for a Missed Thought.]

Edited by D V Devnull, 21 January 2018 - 08:43 AM.

[Mcgral18]

D V Devnull, on 21 January 2018 - 08:41 AM, said:

Yeah, PGI's pretty well gone and wrecked my Mech Stable. Now I'm a Clanner that will be without a Clan Mech to use, and I already had trouble with a bunch of my Inner Sphere Mechs. It's ironically destructive to MWO itself, like PGI doesn't want any Non-Competitive Players around. Heck, maybe "MechWarrior: Living Legends" is sounding good now?

~D. V. "There goes all but the E-Sports Crowd..." Devnull




[Minor Edit by Post Author for a Missed Thought.]

If you don't own a good Clam mech, you don't own many Clams


You must not be a true Clammer

[Luminis]

D V Devnull, on 21 January 2018 - 08:41 AM, said:

Now I'm a Clanner that will be without a Clan Mech to use, and I already had trouble with a bunch of my Inner Sphere Mechs.

You're overreacting to the point of being hysteric.

[Khobai]

Quote

Frankly, if they're having issues with the cMPL, they could have lowered the GH Limit to only 4 or 5, but taking away range was unnecessary

taking away range was absolutely necessary

MPLs arnt meant to be used for midrange poking. MPLs are meant to be a <400m brawling weapon.

lowering the ghost heat limit wouldve defeated the purpose of the weapon because you couldnt fire enough of them at once to do substantial damage in a brawl.

however the reduced range shouldve also meant reduced heat. CMPL shouldve had its heat reduced from 4.75 to 4.3-4.4 as compensation for the reduced range. Since pulse lasers are supposed to be a DPS weapon lower heat wouldve meant better sustained DPS.

Edited by Khobai, 21 January 2018 - 09:58 AM.

[ThreeStooges]

Mcgral18, on 21 January 2018 - 08:47 AM, said:

If you don't own a good Clam mech, you don't own many Clams


You must not be a true Clammer

the only good clan mech I see (until the patch tuesday) is the ach. It is the only good light mech clans have...until jaws enters the game...buy a bigger boat.

[Koniving]

LordNothing, on 20 January 2018 - 05:12 PM, said:

my main disappointment is lack of content, especially tweaks. sure i expect the mech pack release to be the main feature. but everyone knows the game needs more tweaks, 2 quirk passes and 2 weapon tweaks seem very little for a month of work.

Yes. What this game needs is genuine content. Not just maps, not just a 1v1 and 2v2 solaris mode... It needs a purpose.

"The thinking man's shooter" is nothing more than a Call of Duty arena mashup with hitboxes beyond "body" and "head."
And that, my friend, is a travesty, a farce, and a disgrace to Battletech and Mechwarrior.

Edited by Koniving, 21 January 2018 - 10:00 AM.

[Sjorpha]

I like most of the changes well enough, there is nothing that really strikes me as super stupid or anything.

Hgauss range increase is a very good change, it could even be a little more but 220 is alright.

cMedpulse max range decrease is good, it should be a good weapon out to about 3-400m not further.

Lgauss cooldown decrease is...interesting. I suspect it will still be bad but honestly I find the impact hard to gauge. It's very hard to find suitable builds for the Lgauss. Dual on BSW? On heavier mechs the step up to normal dual gauss is fairly small. Possibly combined with medpulse to match cooldowns? I just don't really see it yet. I think upping the firing limit to 3 or 4 would help more.

However there are a lot of the changes that seems like they will do very little, the heat node change seems barely noticable, the quirk swapping on the SHD doesn't really make the SHD a competitive mech, in most builds it won't change anything at all.

There are also a lot of things that are missing in terms of balance.

Under the current degree of tech imbalance a lot of IS mechs needs to be quirked properly to compete with clan mechs the same tonnage, the amount and strength of quirks are very inconsistent and in most cases not enough. Stalker is a prime example of a mech that doesn't hold a candle to the clan 85 tonners due to having almost 0 quirks (3FB has literally 0 quirks).

IS engines needs to be balanced to match the Clan XL. For example let the XL survive a ST loss with same penalty as clan XL, no penalties on the LFE and some kind of durability bonus attached to the standard.

Clan mediums should have a similar ghost heat cap in terms of damage as IS mediums, either by reducing clan side gh limit to 4 or increase the IS to 8. So aiming for around 30 or around 40 damage for both factions before GH kicks in. My preference would be to lower the max on clan side because it would reduce the laser alphas that could stand to go down towards topping out at around 50 - 60 when using combined large and med class lasers rather than the current 70-80.

IS Gauss really needs to motivate the extra 3 tons compared to the clan gauss, shorter cooldown and 3x range back for example. Or you could nerf the clan gauss to be "3 tons worse" whichever seems best.

Obviously handing out quirks and balancing the tech weigh against each other, the more balanced the tech the less quirks IS mechs needs on average and vice versa.

I'm actually ok with the "imbalanced tech and large quirks" method IF the quirks are big enough and consistent enough to reliably compensate fully for inferior tech across all IS chassis, which isnt't the case now. The quirk method also needs to be less prone to frequent nerfs and changes, it's a big problem for customer confidence if quirks can be taken away easier than clan chassis can be nerfed, it makes buying IS mechs a more unreliable purhase than buying clan mechs, that is not good. The important thing is that whochever tool is chosen for the job it actually gets done in full.

On the other hand I like the idea of small incremental balance changes, if they are frequent enough. This type of patch is much preferable to huge sweeping things like suddenly removing all range quirks above 10% and the like...

Edited by Sjorpha, 21 January 2018 - 10:40 AM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 21 January 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:

taking away range was absolutely necessary

MPLs arnt meant to be used for midrange poking. MPLs are meant to be a <400m brawling weapon.

lowering the ghost heat limit wouldve defeated the purpose of the weapon because you couldnt fire enough of them at once to do substantial damage in a brawl.

however the reduced range shouldve also meant reduced heat. CMPL shouldve had its heat reduced from 4.75 to 4.3-4.4 as compensation for the reduced range. Since pulse lasers are supposed to be a DPS weapon lower heat wouldve meant better sustained DPS.

Making the MPL into too much of a brawling weapon just reinforces the notion that they fight for the same range bracket as the SPL, meaning that one will inevitably be the best at that role instead of giving them slightly different roles.

[adamts01]

The6thMessenger, on 20 January 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

- Assassin Armor quirks turned to structure quirks. Yes i'm a bit biased around here, but i really don't like those "armored lights".

I loved small, agile and flimsy, but after so many bads crying we ended up with large and sluggish, so yeah, they have to be tough to have a place.

Those Assassins are tough, but at least in the MG era they'll be missing some guns sooner than later with only structure quirks. Why that mech with its incredible hit boxes and great loadouts gets quirks and the Shadowcat doesn't is beyond me.

[Sjorpha]

FupDup, on 21 January 2018 - 10:02 AM, said:

Making the MPL into too much of a brawling weapon just reinforces the notion that they fight for the same range bracket as the SPL, meaning that one will inevitably be the best at that role instead of giving them slightly different roles.

It still has more than twice the optimal range of the cSPL, as well as more optimal range than the IS medlas. With range nodes it will be comfortable fighting in the 350 - 400m range. I don't really think that's "being made into a brawling weapon" by any stretch.

[Y E O N N E]

Sjorpha, on 21 January 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:

Lgauss cooldown decrease is...interesting. I suspect it will still be bad but honestly I find the impact hard to gauge. It's very hard to find suitable builds for the Lgauss. Dual on BSW? On heavier mechs the step up to normal dual gauss is fairly small. Possibly combined with medpulse to match cooldowns? I just don't really see it yet. I think upping the firing limit to 3 or 4 would help more.

The alpha is small, but the upkeep is now high enough to be concerning for somebody on the receiving end. A Warhammer with a pair of LGauss and a pair of ERLL can sit pretty at 850 meters (if a WHM-BW) and plink things with a nice sustained 4.8 or so DPS. That's....very good for that kind of range, considerably better than any full-ERLL boat on the IS side. It'll keep heads down, especially Assault heads.

Quote

Clan mediums should have a similar ghost heat cap in terms of damage as IS mediums, either by reducing clan side gh limit to 4 or increase the IS to 8. So aiming for around 30 or around 40 damage for both factions before GH kicks in. My preference would be to lower the max on clan side because it would reduce the laser alphas that could stand to go down towards topping out at around 50 - 60 when using combined large and med class lasers rather than the current 70-80.

Well, even whacking cERML/cMPL grouping down to 4 would have zero impact on a 'Mech like the Deathstrike or MCII-1; the primo build on the former is 2x cERLL and 4x cERML, and on the latter it's 2x cHLL and 2x cERML, both 80 points. You would have to link larges and mediums together for Clans to have the desired effect, which has severe implications for anything that can't boat Gauss and lasers. On the other hand, such a link would also allow you to justify shortening the Clan laser burns a bit.

[C E Dwyer]

The Gauss rifle is a D.P.S weapon now

[Cy Mitchell]

Clan laser vomit is a problem because:
- cerML was given its 800+ meter range back
-Heavy lasers were introduced in the Civil War patch
- HLL and cerML synch well and outdamage the former Clan laser vomit king of cLPL and cerML significantly
- The Nov 2016 UAC changes to Jam chance and jam duration removed them as a dependable weapon on all but UAC boats.
- changes to cerML duration and cooldown does nothing to curb Clan laser vomit with the hide and peek meta.
-no changes to heavy laser despite their detrimental affect on game balance.

Players like to shoot their weapons. Not being able to shoot your weapons makes the game less fun. The UAC jam mechanism and raising laser cooldown and duration just makes the player unable to shoot their weapons when they need to.

If Clan laser and Gauss vomit are an issue then make the changes that are needed without making the game less fun. Reduce the damage by reducing the damage: not by making it so the weapons cannot be fired for extended periods of time.

Make HLL 15 damage
Make HML 8 damage
Make cerML 6 damage and reduce their range back to 660 if they synch too well with HLL, LPL and Gauss.
Fix UAC jam chances with a Ghost Jam mechanic that addresses boating UACs without neutering mix load-outs which mix 1 or 2 UACs with other weapon systems or give those Mechs that can only carry one or two UACs ballistic Jam reduction quirks.

Clan laser and Gauss vomit ARE too strong but what are the alternatives? The changes have taken those away but failed to address the OP weapon systems. IMO, making weapon systems not fire is not the answer to controlling damage output. It just makes the game less fun to play. Just reduce the damage of the individual weapons by actually reducing the damage.

I am glad that HG got the increase that the comps wanted.
I am glad that LG got the fix to raise its viability
I am glad the Shadow Hawk got some love.
I am glad the Assassin nerf was not much of a nerf.
I support the reduction of the Heat Generation nodes for Clan because it will address laser vomit a bit (little bit).

I do not think the cerPPC needed a longer cooldown because now you cannot shoot it as often which is not fun.
I do not thing the cMPL needed the range nerf because it eliminates it as a mid-range weapon and will just force anyone using it as such back to erML (which Chris said was already overused).

Overall, I am disappointed in the patch because it does not address the real issues in the game as I see it. Nothing I see here will make me want to play more.

Edited by Rampage, 21 January 2018 - 03:32 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Making the MPL into too much of a brawling weapon just reinforces the notion that they fight for the same range bracket as the SPL, meaning that one will inevitably be the best at that role instead of giving them slightly different roles.

nope

its not nerfing the range of the MPL that made the SPL obsolete

it was nerfing the SPL that made the SPL obsolete

SPL should dominate under 160m and it just doesnt. SPL needs to do more damage. Not the 5-6 damage that some people are suggesting, thats way too much. But we should try it at ~4.5 damage.

It also makes no sense that the SPL has the same ghost heat limit of 6 that the MPL has. SPL should have a ghost heat limit of 7-8.

Quote

I do not thing the cMPL needed the range nerf because it eliminates it as a mid-range weapon and will just force anyone using it as such back to erML

That was the whole point of the nerf

CMPL is not supposed to be a midrange weapon.

But they shouldve also lowered the heat on CMPL to make it more appealing as a shorter range alternative to CERML.

All they did was make the CMPL straight up worse. They didnt reinforce its role as a brawling laser because they left its heat exactly the same despite lowering its range. Thats what I didnt like.

Edited by Khobai, 21 January 2018 - 02:50 PM.