374 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 February 2018 - 10:59 PM, said:

Unban PPC-Gauss if you don't want laser vomit to be so dominant.

If you're asking for that, then you might as well ask that the ghost heat limit for PPCs be increased to 4 as well.

[Leopardo]

a lot of great things are sayd right - guys u are great !!! hope pgi will listen to you all

Edited by Leopardo, 02 February 2018 - 04:28 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Mystere, on 02 February 2018 - 03:44 AM, said:

If you're asking for that, then you might as well ask that the ghost heat limit for PPCs be increased to 4 as well.

How about treat ghost heat kinda like they treat UAC jam chance bonus? Call it a ghost heat quirk.

I.e. have Gauss/PPC GH affect some mechs more than others based on hard point height/number and the potential to “over perform”using the offending weapons? Give a probable “over performer” like the MK-II or the soon to be Blood Asp a more significant potential GH penalty (or other form of disincentive) as these mechs would appear to have great hard points and the mass to really make gauss/PPC work. Then taper this penalty down as the mechs become less idealized for the set up, be it due to lower mass, lower/fewer hardpoints, or what have you. So a bit less of a penalty for a Kodiak, a bit less for a Mad-IIc or a Night Gyr, a lot less for my friggin Cataphract; that sort of thing.

I just don’t understand why we treat all mechs the same for purposes of disencentivising certain weapons or weapon combos, regardless of a given mechs capacity to run the offending weapon (negative mechanics like across the board ghost heat), yet we apply a vast range of bonuses to encourage the use of certain weapons and weapon combination with tremendous variation depending on the mechs in question (+ quirks). This status quo just kills build diversity and player choices.

Now excuse me while I go pick which of my dozens of vomit or Gauss/vomit mechs I will be running this evening. Maybe if I sell some more PPCs I can build another one.

Edited by Bud Crue, 02 February 2018 - 05:00 AM.

[Tarogato]

Jiang Wei, on 02 February 2018 - 03:35 AM, said:

Alot of those issues would go away if they removed double heat sinks.

And the problem is fixed how?

For reference, that build fires a 60-alpha, and can do it up to seven times in a 40-second period before reaching heat cap, totaling ~420 damage. Max DPS of somewhere around 8.2 depending on skill tree, and ~6.9 sustained DPS.

Compared to a DHS build, which fires a 78-alpha only twice before reaching heat cap (152 damage). That's a Max DPS of around 10.6, but it hardly matters since it only lasts for nine seconds. And a sustained DPS of ~6.8, which is actually slightly lower than the SHS alternative.

So woupee, removing DHS from the game reduced alpha damage by one single laser, and made it so that the best laservomit builds will probably outperform the dakka builds in terms of sustain.

Actually, here's another SHS build. That's a 71-alpha that fires almost three times before heat cap (213 damage). Max DPS of 9.7 (for 16 seconds) and a sustained DPS of 6.4, which is only 6% less than the DHS build. In a world with no DHS.



(these numbers are all with a skill tree of 10% heat gen, 10% cool run, and 3% heat containment, because that's just what I happened to have in my sheet at the time)

[Gas Guzzler]

Mystere, on 02 February 2018 - 03:44 AM, said:

If you're asking for that, then you might as well ask that the ghost heat limit for PPCs be increased to 4 as well.

Not really, 4 PPCs are perfectly synced and require much less tonnage investment. Gauss and PPC have different velocities so at range if a target is moving they won't hit the same spot.

PPC Ghost heat is another discussion, but I think it should go up to 3 PPCs personally.

Tarogato, on 02 February 2018 - 04:59 AM, said:

And the problem is fixed how?

For reference, that build fires a 60-alpha, and can do it up to seven times in a 40-second period before reaching heat cap, totaling ~420 damage. Max DPS of somewhere around 8.2 depending on skill tree, and ~6.9 sustained DPS.

Compared to a DHS build, which fires a 78-alpha only twice before reaching heat cap (152 damage). That's a Max DPS of around 10.6, but it hardly matters since it only lasts for nine seconds. And a sustained DPS of ~6.8, which is actually slightly lower than the SHS alternative.

So woupee, removing DHS from the game reduced alpha damage by one single laser, and made it so that the best laservomit builds will probably outperform the dakka builds in terms of sustain.

Actually, here's another SHS build. That's a 71-alpha that fires almost three times before heat cap (213 damage). Max DPS of 9.7 (for 16 seconds) and a sustained DPS of 6.4, which is only 6% less than the DHS build. In a world with no DHS.



(these numbers are all with a skill tree of 10% heat gen, 10% cool run, and 3% heat containment, because that's just what I happened to have in my sheet at the time)

Supernova with 43 SHS and 2 HLL and 6ERML.. 78 damage.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 02 February 2018 - 08:20 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

RJBass3 is hosting Mech The Dane next week on twitch

"On Wed 2/7 at 8pm EST Jarl and the boys and I will be sitting down on stream to discuss making MWO fun again, balance, and what this game needs. Tune in this Wed at http://twitch.tv/rjbass3"

[Jiang Wei]

Tarogato, on 02 February 2018 - 04:59 AM, said:

And the problem is fixed how?

For reference, that build fires a 60-alpha, and can do it up to seven times in a 40-second period before reaching heat cap, totaling ~420 damage. Max DPS of somewhere around 8.2 depending on skill tree, and ~6.9 sustained DPS.

Compared to a DHS build, which fires a 78-alpha only twice before reaching heat cap (152 damage). That's a Max DPS of around 10.6, but it hardly matters since it only lasts for nine seconds. And a sustained DPS of ~6.8, which is actually slightly lower than the SHS alternative.

So woupee, removing DHS from the game reduced alpha damage by one single laser, and made it so that the best laservomit builds will probably outperform the dakka builds in terms of sustain.

Actually, here's another SHS build. That's a 71-alpha that fires almost three times before heat cap (213 damage). Max DPS of 9.7 (for 16 seconds) and a sustained DPS of 6.4, which is only 6% less than the DHS build. In a world with no DHS.



(these numbers are all with a skill tree of 10% heat gen, 10% cool run, and 3% heat containment, because that's just what I happened to have in my sheet at the time)

All you did was show how overpowered the MAD 2C is, or how over powered clan lasers are. Or both. Thanks for that. Can you find another example to prove your point? Does that page also account for ghost heat? That is quite an impressive mid range design. But I wonder how it actually plays out in real combat. I wouldnt know, Ive never owned any clan mechs in this game.

Heat cap is also a problem. Thanks for pointing that out. But I think thats only because of DHS.

Edited by Jiang Wei, 02 February 2018 - 03:47 PM.

[JohnnyWayne]

I don't agree with his solution but i said this before in june and july. Then I took a break as the really ****** up lasers. I'm checking back every now and then... Not happy right now tbh.

[FupDup]

Jiang Wei, on 02 February 2018 - 03:37 PM, said:

All you did was show how overpowered the MAD 2C is, or how over powered clan lasers are. Or both. Thanks for that. Can you find another example to prove your point? Does that page also account for ghost heat? That is quite an impressive mid range design. But I wonder how it actually plays out in real combat. I wouldnt know, Ive never owned any clan mechs in this game.

Heat cap is also a problem. Thanks for pointing that out. But I think thats only because of DHS.

The builds he linked do not have Ghost Heat penalties. Combining any Clan medium laser with any Clan large laser will allow you to get a higher alpha with no penalty.

[ROSS-128]

DHS right now are more like 1.5HS, and SHS right now are more like 1.2HS. The biggest difference between them currently is in the engine heatsinks. If the engine gap wasn't so large (or didn't exist) a lot of IS mechs probably would sink an extra ton or two into SHS to free up crit slots that can be used to buy that tonnage back with change. But with SHS still needing about 7t of HS just to cover the engine gap, well it doesn't even become an option until you get into energy boating with 90+ tons.

And Clan mechs just don't care because crits and tons aren't really things Clans worry about. Clans tend to bottleneck on hardpoints or ghost heat first, and then go looking for something to spend leftover tons and slots on (usually engine and more heatsinks).

[Gas Guzzler]

Jiang Wei, on 02 February 2018 - 03:37 PM, said:

All you did was show how overpowered the MAD 2C is, or how over powered clan lasers are. Or both. Thanks for that. Can you find another example to prove your point? Does that page also account for ghost heat? That is quite an impressive mid range design. But I wonder how it actually plays out in real combat. I wouldnt know, Ive never owned any clan mechs in this game.

Heat cap is also a problem. Thanks for pointing that out. But I think thats only because of DHS.

Your drawing a lot of conclusions about Clan mechs for someone who has never owned any Clan mechs...

[Tarogato]

Jiang Wei, on 02 February 2018 - 03:37 PM, said:

All you did was show how overpowered the MAD 2C is, or how over powered clan lasers are. Or both. Thanks for that. Can you find another example to prove your point? Does that page also account for ghost heat? That is quite an impressive mid range design. But I wonder how it actually plays out in real combat. I wouldnt know, Ive never owned any clan mechs in this game.

Heat cap is also a problem. Thanks for pointing that out. But I think thats only because of DHS.

Yes, you're right. It shows how ridiculous a mech like the MAD-IIC is, it's so strong and versatile that removing DHS from the game almost doesn't nerf it at all. But removing DHS will nerf a lot of other mechs by a lot.

Take for example, the Timberwolf:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c298e93d20428c0
25 DHS, two alphas, 5.8 sustain


http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bd909e9de92e65b

29 SHS, cannot fire two alphas, 4.7 sustain (19% loss in sustained DPS, substantial, compared to the only ~6% loss for the MAD-IIC)





So removing DHS... just increases the performance gap between the good and bad chassis that already exist? And you think it's a good idea?

[Sjorpha]

What would actually BE a good idea is to treat all engine internal heatsinks like DHS whether you are mounting SHS or DHS externally, that way SHS would be useful on quite a few mechs.

[Y E O N N E]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 February 2018 - 04:30 PM, said:

Your drawing a lot of conclusions about Clan mechs for someone who has never owned any Clan mechs...

Or even bothered to do the math or any sort of investigation for himself.

It's not hard, I promise.

[PocketYoda]

Curccu, on 01 February 2018 - 11:34 PM, said:

Comp players how?

Sigmar Sich, on 02 February 2018 - 12:04 AM, said:

How so? I'm very curious to hear logic behind this statement.
I struggle to find any influence of the lore on this game.

Because they don't play the game they see it as some competitive sport that it'll never be, the rest of us just want to have fun in any mech with any weapons and do not care what some spreadsheet says or does..

The devs continue to make the game garbage for the standard gamer and they quit, the population dwindles and the game loses funds.. Because a large percentage want to play in stompy robots not win the next MWO tournament .. Figured it wasn't rocket science..

The game tries to follow the lore and fluff as best a modern shooter game/giant robot game can, it'll never be the tabletop as they aren't the bound by the same design mechanics.. Yes PGI makes bad decisions but its about as close as a mechwarrior pvp game can get..

Those insane purists that insist on every single little detail be upheld and forced should not be listened to so much if they want a fun game to make money.

Edited by Samial, 02 February 2018 - 06:29 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Samial, on 02 February 2018 - 06:22 PM, said:

Because they don't play the game they see it as some competitive sport that it'll never be, the rest of us just want to have fun in any mech with any weapons and do not care what some spreadsheet says or does..

The devs continue to make the game garbage for the standard gamer and they quit, the population dwindles and the game loses funds.. Because a large percentage want to play in stompy robots not win the next MWO tournament .. Figured it wasn't rocket science..

That isn't how it works.

Comp players are just playing the game. They are just playing it better and that reveals the flaws. Everything that's wrong with the game for the average player gets amplified at the top level. You think they like doing nothing but ERLL sniping across 90% of the maps? Hell no.

[PocketYoda]

Yeonne Greene, on 02 February 2018 - 06:37 PM, said:

That isn't how it works.

Comp players are just playing the game. They are just playing it better and that reveals the flaws. Everything that's wrong with the game for the average player gets amplified at the top level. You think they like doing nothing but ERLL sniping across 90% of the maps? Hell no.

Yes but those flaws only effected the top players.. not the low tiers. Now its just lrm spam and poking lasers at a 1000 paces.. Ballistics are garbage and non lrm missiles are used for last minute light mech bug spray removal..

Seriously i understand its not wholly competitives fault as all the damn maps are basically designed for those two play styles as well.. But a lot of why we are here now is from elites feedback..

Edited by Samial, 02 February 2018 - 06:45 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Samial, on 02 February 2018 - 06:44 PM, said:

Yes but those flaws only effected the top players.. not the low tiers. Now its just lrm spam and poking lasers at a 1000 paces.. Ballistics are garbage and non lrm missiles are used for last minute light mech bug spray removal..

Seriously i understand its not wholly competitives fault all the damn maps are basically designed for those two play styles as well.. But a lot of why we are here now is from elites feedback..

The flaws affect everybody.

Ballistics are garbage at the top as well as the bottom; Ultras are too hot and jam far too frequently to be useful except on the boats. Standard ACs don't have any sufficiently redeeming qualities to compensate for the lack of a double-tap, even for IS. AC/20s being unable to twin fire without ghost heat and with softball projectile has rendered them impotent compared to HGauss.

LRMs have been spamming it up since the game's inception. As long as some people have trouble aiming for whatever reason, you will have LRM spam. They've even been nerfed with worse spread, longer cool-downs, and shorter range than they used to have. I don't see what this has to do with comp though since the only map where LRMs are considered viable is Polar Highlands, else you should bring literally anything else.

And more broadly, the over-sized IS LB-X affects the top and the bottom. The lack of comparable cooling capabilities for IS weapons affects everybody. The sluggish Clan 'Mechs affects everybody. None of this was designed for or by comp.

Comp wants more stuff to be useful to increase variety, same as full-time Tier 5ers.

[Sigmar Sich]

Samial, on 02 February 2018 - 06:22 PM, said:

Those insane purists that insist on every single little detail be upheld and forced should not be listened to so much if they want a fun game to make money.

If person demands tactical Tabletop game's rules translation into PC PVP game, without any change, this person is not a lore fanboy, it is an absolute pillock. And nobody listens to them, PGI is not stupid. Devs change what they want to change, they limited only by their own imagination. Which is lacking, sadly. This is where problem lies.

So now, what a proper lore fanboy would be. It is a person, who wants this game to be more saturated with lore. Spirit of lore, not letter of lore. Factions having distinct differences (instead we no longer have factions); text description for the equipment and planets (for example did you know, Ultra Autocannons use magnetic system to feed ammo, not mechanical as usual ACs); maybe battles to have more depth than just arena deathmatch (you know, when lights do scouting, assaults do assault, etc.)

So basically, it is not listening to "lore fanboys", that is holding this game back.
Saying "lore is bad, move on", which is also mentioned in @Mech The Dane video - it is wrong and unclear message to PGI, which may backfire very badly. To all of you guys, i advise against it.

[Warning incoming Humble Dexterer]

I think that PGI should balance mechs/factions less, and balance individual players more.

And if there's not enough players to offer a proper Match Maker, then balance players another way such as giving individual players some kind of individual bonus (such as increased armor, a damage bonus, more Deck weight or at least a score bonus for their next game), based on how poorly they are performing with the current (lack of a proper) Match Maker.

Edited by Humble Dexter, 02 February 2018 - 09:29 PM.