37 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 27 January 2018 - 12:07 AM, said:

because you dont read my posts

I explained it quite succinctly

You just explained that you don't like it, that you THINK that UAC20s aint for hit-and-fade which is wrong, that weapons that has 270m range is brawl weapons only which is wrong.

Now here's the problem, the UAC20 puts out 40 damage at once in my setup, you couldn't consider that it's lighter and smaller than the HGR to make a comparison to it. So when i say "I could never fathom why all he sees is the 8.75s cooldown", that literally means i cannot fathom why could you not consider other factors than just the god damn cooldown.

Khobai, on 27 January 2018 - 12:07 AM, said:

it doesnt align with laser cooldowns

So the **** what?

Khobai, on 27 January 2018 - 12:07 AM, said:

6 seconds aligns better with CERML

40 damage / 6 seconds = 6.6666676... DPS, yeah that will end well.

I suppose it could work, considering that the UAC20 could attain about 7.5 EDPS.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 January 2018 - 12:32 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

I think the UAC/20 has sufficient mass and size to be self-limiting. And that's going to be a sizable gap between double taps. When it doesn't jam, I wouldn't say the current 20 is OP and it has much shorter intervals.

[The6thMessenger]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 January 2018 - 12:39 AM, said:

I think the UAC/20 has sufficient mass and size to be self-limiting. And that's going to be a sizable gap between double taps. When it doesn't jam, I wouldn't say the current 20 is OP and it has much shorter intervals.

Well, yeah, i suppose. It was funny bursting 60 damage with one uac20 though. That was hilarious.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 January 2018 - 12:45 AM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

The6thMessenger, on 26 January 2018 - 09:49 PM, said:

Cooldown: 8.75s

R u serius?

[The6thMessenger]

Nema Nabojiv, on 27 January 2018 - 12:53 AM, said:

R u serius?

Not really, as indicated by "i.e.", people seem to prefer 6.0s though.

[Khobai]

Quote

R u serius?

exactly. lol.


6.0s is obviously better since it aligns with laser cooldowns. you can fire it at the same time you peek out with your lasers.

ISUAC20 should do 6.66 damage x 6 shots with a 6.0 cooldown

CUAC20 should do 5 damage x 8 shots with a 6.0 cooldown

6.66 dps is entirely reasonable for the UAC20.


At 6 second cooldown, its basically the same as my UAC from the other thread. Except it double taps every 6 seconds instead of single tapping every 3 seconds. So its more burst oriented.

And the regular AC20 would need range/velocity buffs and possible ammo per ton buffs to compensate for the lower DPS compared to the UAC20. Regular ACs should be better at sniping and UACs should be better at dps.

Edited by Khobai, 27 January 2018 - 02:11 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 27 January 2018 - 02:01 AM, said:

6.0s is obviously better since it aligns with laser cooldowns. you can fire it at the same time you peek out with your lasers.

Again, 40 upfront damage.

Khobai, on 27 January 2018 - 02:01 AM, said:

ISUAC20 should do 6.66 damage x 6 shots with a 6.0 cooldown

CUAC20 should do 5 damage x 8 shots with a 6.0 cooldown

6.66 dps is entirely reasonable for the UAC20.

Sure, 6 seconds. But I designed to further offset the upfront damage by increasing the burst. IIRC, burst interval is at 0.11s at all. Now it should be faster.

Khobai, on 27 January 2018 - 02:01 AM, said:

At 6 second cooldown, its basically the same as my UAC from the other thread. Except it double taps every 6 seconds instead of single tapping every 3 seconds. So its more burst oriented.

Isn't that your suggestion is an asinine faster-firing less damage AC?

Khobai, on 27 January 2018 - 02:01 AM, said:

And the regular AC20 would need range/velocity buffs and possible ammo per ton buffs to compensate for the lower DPS compared to the UAC20. Regular ACs should be better at sniping and UACs should be better at dps.

I wanted to do away with that with single-slug.

[Y E O N N E]

I don't want to do away with the single slug.

The game has no room for a non-ultra that doesn't fire a single shot. Just take the Ultra.

[Khobai]

Quote

Sure, 6 seconds. But I designed to further offset the upfront damage by increasing the burst. IIRC, burst interval is at 0.11s at all. Now it should be faster.

but if it doesnt align with laser cooldown theres no reason to use it. ever.

people will just pass on it for a weapon with cooldown that aligns with lasers better.

Quote

Isn't that your suggestion is an asinine faster-firing less damage AC?

thats exactly what a UAC should be. a higher DPS AC with smaller blocks of damage.

the only difference is my UACs were singletapping every X seconds instead of doubletapping every 2X seconds.

im not a big fan of burstfire or doubletapping. but I can live with them if it means no jamming.

Quote

I wanted to do away with that with single-slug.

there would be zero reason to use standard ACs if you took away the single slug

standard ACs should be for sniping and accurate shot placement

UACs should be for higher dps at the expense of accurate shot placement

Edited by Khobai, 27 January 2018 - 02:51 AM.

[sycocys]

I don't really like the idea because it reinforces the poke and go hide under a rock meta.

[SOL Ranger]

I'll take anything that's not based on RNG/Jam mechanics.

However I still like my suggestion better with single barrel reloads allowing freely player decided burst and moderate sustained fire after shooting all the barrels. Even if the sustained damage is lower, it shouldn't be anemic and I don't like wholly polarised weapons that such a long cooldown as your suggestion presents where it would force you to wait for all the barrels to reload.

I believe it is enough uniqueness to have the burst fire feature after which it can be either what you suggest or a lower dps AC as well until you wait for a full reload.

[The6thMessenger]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 January 2018 - 02:37 AM, said:

I don't want to do away with the single slug.

The game has no room for a non-ultra that doesn't fire a single shot. Just take the Ultra.

It's not that there wouldn't be any single-slug anymore, but UACs in general just uses burst-fire.

Khobai, on 27 January 2018 - 02:41 AM, said:

but if it doesnt align with laser cooldown theres no reason to use it. ever.

people will just pass on it for a weapon with cooldown that aligns with lasers better.

Lol, again with your one-dimensional thinking.

Or you know they'd pick it for the powerful shot with respect to tonnage. So what if they couldn't fire it with the laser? When they fire it, it's a monster. Not because you're too unimaginative means others are too.

Khobai, on 27 January 2018 - 02:41 AM, said:

thats exactly what a UAC should be. a higher DPS AC with smaller blocks of damage.

the only difference is my UACs were singletapping every X seconds instead of doubletapping every 2X seconds.

And that there is the big difference which sets my suggestion apart, nothing like yours. Yours is for sustain, mine is for burst, and that puts them on different roles.

Khobai, on 27 January 2018 - 02:41 AM, said:

there would be zero reason to use standard ACs if you took away the single slug

Yeah, duh. That's why i left them alone, only the UACs are burst fire.

Khobai, on 27 January 2018 - 02:41 AM, said:

standard ACs should be for sniping and accurate shot placement

UACs should be for higher dps at the expense of accurate shot placement

Again, no. ACs is for jack of all trades, UACs is for bursting, RAC is for sustaining. **** TT, it's FPS MWO, get on with the god damn program.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 January 2018 - 05:30 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

The6thMessenger, on 27 January 2018 - 05:26 AM, said:

It's not that there wouldn't be any single-slug anymore, but UACs in general just uses burst-fire.

We were talking about the AC/20, tho...

Also, the UAC/20 doesn't have to synchronize with the laser. That's just gravy. The reason it can't be an 8 second cooldown is far simpler: it caps the output for the range too much.

It's still going to ghost at 2, so it's not like a Deathstrike or something can insta-delete 'Mechs with it any more than it already can.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 27 January 2018 - 10:32 AM.

[ROSS-128]

Hmm, it is an interesting compromise. On the one hand, no more RNG jam, and guaranteed double-taps. On the other hand, in a way you could see it as 100% auto-jam on the second shot what with the cooldown. But you *do* get the second shot.

Mathematically, it seems pretty similar to the kind of tradeoff you get with PPC capacitors in TT: a 2x-1.3x increase to up-front damage (depending on which PPC you attach it to) for 2x-1.3x more heat, 1.3x-1.1x more tonnage, 1.5x-1.25x more space, and a 2x cooldown.

It's not exactly the same of course, that implementation of UAC would be 2x damage 2x heat at every size, with a smaller relative weight/size penalty, but the additional drawback of being spread across a burst. Which could defeat the entire point of front-loading in the first place if the burst itself takes too long to resolve.

Edited by ROSS-128, 27 January 2018 - 11:31 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

sounds simalar to my suggestion from a couple days ago

Andi Nagasia, on 25 January 2018 - 04:16 PM, said:

i like the idea but would also support a change to increase cooldown on second click as well,
1st click fire an UAC20 Start 4Sec cooldown,
2nd click fire an UAC20 add 4Sec to cooldown,

so you click 20 damage, wait 2 seconds and click 20 damage(you have to wait 6seconds to cooldown)

UAC2-. 0.72Cooldown(+0.72Seconds to Cooldown timer)
UAC5-. 1.66Cooldown(+1.66Seconds to Cooldown timer)
UAC10- 2.50Cooldown(+2.50Seconds to Cooldown timer)
UAC20- 4.00Cooldown(+4.00Seconds to Cooldown timer)

although you didnt like it,

The6thMessenger, on 25 January 2018 - 04:27 PM, said:

I'd rather they just make the current system double-shoot even if it does jam.

but is seems odd that your idea is just like mine was,
but instead of adding cooldown on second click, you just start with doubled cooldowns,
personally id prefer my idea as it doesnt punish people from using a UAC as a AC(just single click)

where yours does(if you click you have to double tap or you wasting time)
also yours leaves in an exploit that people could use to get 60 damage if they want to waste ammo,
-
Click UAC20(20damage into wall) wait 8seconds of 8.5sec cooldown,
peak out from courner click 20damage, cooldown ends, click click 40damage,
60damage in under half a sec, if you choose to waste a single shot for the start up,

[The6thMessenger]

ROSS-128, on 27 January 2018 - 11:30 AM, said:

Hmm, it is an interesting compromise. On the one hand, no more RNG jam, and guaranteed double-taps. On the other hand, in a way you could see it as 100% auto-jam on the second shot what with the cooldown. But you *do* get the second shot.

Mathematically, it seems pretty similar to the kind of tradeoff you get with PPC capacitors in TT: a 2x-1.3x increase to up-front damage (depending on which PPC you attach it to) for 2x-1.3x more heat, 1.3x-1.1x more tonnage, 1.5x-1.25x more space, and a 2x cooldown.

It's not exactly the same of course, that implementation of UAC would be 2x damage 2x heat at every size, with a smaller relative weight/size penalty, but the additional drawback of being spread across a burst. Which could defeat the entire point of front-loading in the first place if the burst itself takes too long to resolve.

Sure,there's more shells. But it's done faster. IIRC, the current interval is 0.11s right? The C-UAC20 does 4 shells, with the first one done at 0th, that means it has 0.33s of accumulated time, 0.22s on the IS-UAC20 and CAC10, that is added with 0.44s and 0.33s respectfully if they double-shot. The Clan UAC5, does 0.11s + 0.22s = 0.33s.

The new system, the C-UAC20 at 0.05s with 5 shells results in 0.20s of burst, + 0.25s = 0.45s. For the IS-UAC20 and C-AC10, 4 shells at 0.06s interval, results in 0.18s + 0.24s = 0.42s. The IS-UAC10 and CUAC5 with 3 shells and 0.07s result in 0.14s + 0.21s = 0.35s, and the CUAC2 at 2 shells with 0.08s, has 0.08s + 0.16s = 0.24s.

The burst is faster, even if there's extra shells, that was just there to further spread the damage, but it would still be pretty tight and not hard to shoot at.

Andi Nagasia, on 27 January 2018 - 11:53 AM, said:

sounds simalar to my suggestion from a couple days ago

although you didnt like it,


but is seems odd that your idea is just like mine was,
but instead of adding cooldown on second click, you just start with doubled cooldowns,
personally id prefer my idea as it doesnt punish people from using a UAC as a AC(just single click)

where yours does(if you click you have to double tap or you wasting time)
also yours leaves in an exploit that people could use to get 60 damage if they want to waste ammo,
-
Click UAC20(20damage into wall) wait 8seconds of 8.5sec cooldown,
peak out from courner click 20damage, cooldown ends, click click 40damage,
60damage in under half a sec, if you choose to waste a single shot for the start up,

Because it's balanced with the double-tap in mind, therein lies the difference. I want people to double tap, lest they waste their double tap potential. It's supposed to define the different types of ACs a lot more separate than one another.

Yes they can triple-tap if they wish by double shooting the first shot just before it completely recycles and then quickly double-shooting another. You can do that right now, but you don't need to wait for 8.5s, just 4 seconds so long it doesn't jam twice.

Yeonne Greene, on 27 January 2018 - 10:28 AM, said:

We were talking about the AC/20, tho...

Yeah, and i was talking about UAC in general. The AC20 for the IS still gets single-slug -- although i wish that the CAC20 would get single slug but with splash damage too.

Yeonne Greene, on 27 January 2018 - 10:28 AM, said:

Also, the UAC/20 doesn't have to synchronize with the laser. That's just gravy. The reason it can't be an 8 second cooldown is far simpler: it caps the output for the range too much.

Yeah, i know. Khobai is bull ******** us. That 8s cooldown though, there was just a target DPS i had in mind, if people doesn't want the UACs to have lower DPS, they can just adjust that cooldown accordingly to perhaps 6s.

Yeonne Greene, on 27 January 2018 - 10:28 AM, said:

It's still going to ghost at 2, so it's not like a Deathstrike or something can insta-delete 'Mechs with it any more than it already can.

Can reliably burst 60 damage though, no really shoot one, wait for about 8.4s just before complete recycle, and then you can shoot three times very rapidly. Soooo.

That is what i was afraid of, ensured 60 damage for 1 weapon system. But if you people really want it to just have 6s cooldown, your funeral man. Not that i'm spiteful, i guess it would be fun for my hunchies.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 January 2018 - 03:07 PM.

[ROSS-128]

Well, one slightly more complicated way to do it would be to give it a two-stage cooldown. Think of it like reloading a double-barreled shotgun: firing one shot uses half the cooldown, firing a second shot uses the other half.

So as long as you're only firing one shot, you have a 4s cooldown. If you double-tap you'll be able to fire a single shot every 4s after that, but will need to wait the full 8s to queue up another double-tap.

[The6thMessenger]

ROSS-128, on 27 January 2018 - 03:02 PM, said:

Well, one slightly more complicated way to do it would be to give it a two-stage cooldown. Think of it like reloading a double-barreled shotgun: firing one shot uses half the cooldown, firing a second shot uses the other half.

That would be one-way to implement it. But there's a reason why we can't change ammo types, and that is PGI couldn't code it in.

The selling point of this for them is that it can be done with XML.