10 replies to this topic

[Relishcakes]

So, I've been thinking about this stuff for a bit and I'm in no way a dude who is just sitting around compiling data and crunching the numbers etc but I feel like I could weigh in with a question to be chewed on for a moment.

Why are we balancing across sides?

Looking at the tech bases the IS and Clans have gone different routes. The IS developing better(?) ballistics and subjectively better missiles. Personally i like the MRMs over the ATMS. Whereas the Clan is sitting pretty with their lasers having no match. Why then are we sitting here and nerfing both Clan lasers and IS lasers at the same time? They aren't the same by a pretty long shot.

Instead what i think should actually happen is emphasize the difference in the tech bases. The IS having far superior dakka, equating them to the clan lasers while still leaving lasers as an option. Balance cannot be achieved by equating 1 for 1 on these weapons because the tech bases are vastly different.

Again I might be wrong but it seems a pretty clear picture to me. Sorry about the formatting, typing like this helps me keep my thoughts on track.

[FupDup]

Well, the issue is that it's not just about the broad tech bases against each other, but also mechs within each base against other mechs of the same base. For example, under your idea, IS laser mechs would just suck balls compared to IS dakka. Even if the IS dakka was able to compete against the Clams on equal footing, there would be many IS mechs that simply cannot make use of dakka and therefore they would just be left in the dust. This also applies in the to Clans (e.g. Clan mechs that aren't good for laser vomit would (and usually do) suck).

I do strongly believe in making the factions genuinely feel different to play as, but that doesn't mean you let one faction have a clear dominance over one area while sucking hard in every other area.

Edited by FupDup, 28 January 2018 - 07:44 PM.

[Mcgral18]

The isLPL and cLPL were balanced
They were far from the same, different damage, different range, different duration

However, they were both useful
Then they were both nerfed, and made nearly useless



Having one faction with nearly everything being superior isn't great. Having give and take can be done, but not as you put it
Some weapons have inherent advantages and disadvantages, Lasers being hitscan and very easy to use, Dakka having projectile speed and target leading, a fair bit harder to use

[Relishcakes]

I wasnt actually talking about having one side having clear dominance over another. I meant more having each side have CLEAR strengths. The Clans dont have RAC's and while i dont know the reasons behind that I am confident that the IS should be able to leverage that to their advantage, much like the Clans having the heavy laser variants that the IS dont have.

[Mcgral18]

Relishcakes, on 28 January 2018 - 07:48 PM, said:

I wasnt actually talking about having one side having clear dominance over another. I meant more having each side have CLEAR strengths. The Clans dont have RAC's and while i dont know the reasons behind that I am confident that the IS should be able to leverage that to their advantage, much like the Clans having the heavy laser variants that the IS dont have.

The issue there, is that RACs are bad, and some Heavy lasers are good

But, that's a PGI issue, not inherently a game issue

[Scyther]

It's good to explore different ideas to balance the game, but this particular one (the OP) has some issues.

BattleTech the game, and the lore, the tech bases aren't equal. The warriors aren't equal. The manufacturing and transport systems aren't equal, etc.etc. The paper game had issues with this imbalance, although in 'lore' of course you can make whatever you want work out with 'plot armor'. Real-time online PVP games have other issues that the BT game and lore never had.

When you talk about changing the way the tech bases work, you ignore the background of the game MWO is based on.

You can't 'equate the IS dakka with Clan lasers' for instance, because one has ammo, fires shells with travel time, can jam at unpredictable moments, and weighs more/is bulkier. Also, it would get pretty boring if IS always showed up with dakka mechs and Clan with energy because that was their most efficient system.

Players will maximize with what is available. If the available choices don't have some level of parity of effectiveness, then they will discard the less effective weapons and boat the more effective ones.

PGI is stuck with trying to take a paper game/lore combo that was never balanced to begin with, translate it to a different medium, and create some degree of meaningful choice between weapons and mechs by tweaking things so there is no one standout 'best choice' that would obsolete the rest.

As another thread pointed out, at some point 'balance' can equal 'removes the fun by making everything the same'. I think back to original StarCraft where Terran, Protoss and Zerg were each completely unique, with their own style, and different mechanics, but all roughly equal in power.

That is the type of balance I would like to see MWO achieve, so to that extent I agree with the OP in that 'why try to make them the same?' isn't wise. That said, it's a trickier balancing act. StarCraft could invent 3 completely separate mechanics for the various sides. MWO is stuck with a legacy of both sides having essentially the same equipment with only relative levels of effectiveness to play with to balance them.

[Water Bear]

Relishcakes, on 28 January 2018 - 07:36 PM, said:

Why then are we sitting here and nerfing both Clan lasers and IS lasers at the same time? They aren't the same by a pretty long shot.

Current meta favors laser vomit whether the tech base is C or IS. That's the short answer.

Even after nerfing IS LPL, I still use them on my laser builds every chance I get because they're still pretty godly.

It sounds to me like you are looking at a somewhat higher level picture, which is good, but you cannot interpret absolutely everything in this game through that lens.

[MechaBattler]

It should all be viable in my opinion. I'm willing to accept ghost heat telling me not to boat X build. But being told as IS, I should only run ballistics. That's just ridiculous.

[Relishcakes]

MechaBattler, on 29 January 2018 - 11:46 AM, said:

It should all be viable in my opinion. I'm willing to accept ghost heat telling me not to boat X build. But being told as IS, I should only run ballistics. That's just ridiculous.

I was just using the info that i've seen from my own perspective. Think of it as an example for kicking around and not something set in stone.

[Khobai]

Quote

Instead what i think should actually happen is emphasize the difference in the tech bases. The IS having far superior dakka, equating them to the clan lasers while still leaving lasers as an option. Balance cannot be achieved by equating 1 for 1 on these weapons because the tech bases are vastly different.

NO. then theres no point to clan dakka

good weapon balance means all weapons have a purpose

we need more weapon diversity not less. which means weapons need better defined roles.

weapons should also not be balanced solely by adjusting numerical stats either. weapons should have intangible special abilities that set them apart from other weapons: like hud disruption for PPCs or letting explosive weapons like missiles destroy/deform terrain, etc...

Edited by Khobai, 29 January 2018 - 12:15 PM.

[Tiewolf]

Relishcakes, on 28 January 2018 - 07:48 PM, said:

I wasnt actually talking about having one side having clear dominance over another. I meant more having each side have CLEAR strengths. The Clans dont have RAC's and while i dont know the reasons behind that I am confident that the IS should be able to leverage that to their advantage, much like the Clans having the heavy laser variants that the IS dont have.

Would be nice if both sides had strengths. But most IS strengths are irrelevant compared to the clan strengths on the given maps/environment.
Btw. New tech is over all implemented badly for IS. Racs are just bad and MRMs boost your damage but can't take an enemy mech down. ATMs are difficult to use but the results are devastating if you can make em work. Some C-HL are very nice and effective.
Due to clan omni system nearly all clan mechs could adapt to a new meta but most of the IS cassis that can not mount ballistic would be obsolete with your balance suggestion.