31 replies to this topic

[Feezou]

For different roles, what would be a good percentage for heat management? For brawlers, I've heard 44% is the standard, but how does this compare to the heat efficiency of other roles such as harassing or 2nd line support? What would be a good heat efficiency for an LRM boater?

[Koniving]

I personally aim for 50%. It just depends, the more often you need to shoot, the higher it needs to be. The less often, the lower you can get away with. Something like 10 to 20%, though, is likely to explode.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Heat efficiency really does depend on the playstyle and build.

For a brawler you want to be able to kill at least an enemy or two before shutting down, look to do at least 250 damage firing non stop before a shut down. Without good sustain a slow brawler is dead. With a fast moving brawler you're actually required to take up more of a hit and run playstyle, take shots on an enemy and then get out of the area to go cool off, in this case you don't really need very high sustain, though being able to cool off quickly lets you go and get back out there to put out more damage.

For second line support there's lots of different types, you have super high laser alpha, laser alpha/dps hybrids, then full on DPS builds.

For high laser alphas all you really need is to be able to fire your shot without overheating at which point you hide behind a rock until you're at a low enough heat level to fire it again, once again higher cooling or heat capacities do let you do this more often, for example a Hellbringer compared to a Supernova both running 2 HLL and 6 ERML, the Supernova can get 3 shots off in a row compared to the Hellbringer's one and a half.

For laser DPS build such as 6 MPL, or on a Night Gyr something like 2 UAC10s and 4 MPL/ERML or even a Hellbringer running just 6 ERML, you want to be able to not really worry too much about your heat so that you can keep the alphas coming, getting 5 shots off before needing to back down is pretty decent, though on some of the ballistic+laser builds, getting off an alpha or two of the ballistic+lasers then just falling back to just ballistics for 2-3 more bursts works out decently too.

For pure ballistic DPS being able to fire for 30 seconds non stop is a pretty good minimum for your sustain as long as you're putting out good damage, go for at least 300 damage out before overheating.

For LRMs it works out pretty similar to ballistic DPS builds, look to be able to just pump out LRMs as often as possible. Find a good balance between ammo and heatsinks. If you are overheating too much that you can't use up all your ammo in a match then you need more heatsinks, if you are running cool and burning through all your ammo quickly then you need some more ammo and less cooling. You'll also want to have some good point defense weapons to stop light mechs from farming you.



Really it all boils down to how much heat can you really handle in your builds, how often are you firing, are you sitting on resting heat all the time meaning that you're wasting tonnage on heatsinks you aren't using, if so you need more guns and less cooling, or are you constantly out there up front but you're burning out too bright? time for some more cooling and maybe a drop somewhere else.

[Leone]

Dakota1000, on 29 January 2018 - 08:29 AM, said:

Really it all boils down to how much heat can you really handle in your builds, how often are you firing, are you sitting on resting heat all the time meaning that you're wasting tonnage on heatsinks you aren't using, if so you need more guns and less cooling, or are you constantly out there up front but you're burning out too bright? time for some more cooling and maybe a drop somewhere else.

I agree with alot of your post, but here you might actually wanna think about playstyle if your at resting heat. Alotta the best players I've seen always wanna be cooling, so you could try and figure out how to fire more and get more damage downrange safely, rather'n retool the build. But that's getting into altering playstyle to build rather'n the other way around, and we can get into huge discussions about preferred playstyle.

Suffice it to say, you should aim to always be cooling off to maintain efficiency, as at the end of the day, every mech on the field is fighting the heat, and if your resting cool, it means you're not fighting with your team, and thus not helping at that time. (And yes, we can get into nuances, like a narcing light sneaking around running cool, but we're talking guidelines right now.)

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 29 January 2018 - 03:03 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

A set "%" is not a good indication.

The factor is how many DHS you are running.

Build 1
78% efficiency with 12DHS.

Build 2
Yet another build might be 35% heat efficiency with 20DHS.


Which is the more heat efficient build? Build 2 actually is because it has the DHS to cooldown/dissipate the heat MUCH after than the first build. This is a common trap for new players IMO as it's very unclear. Heat efficiency (for me) is all about how FAST you cool in game. Not what the mechlab/smurfy will tell you.

Hence a ASN21 for example, once it's hot, takes 7-10 seconds to cool off where a Clan mech with a similar load out (but 5-6 more cDHS) cools off in half the time.

[Feezou]

justcallme A S H, on 29 January 2018 - 02:27 PM, said:

A set "%" is not a good indication.

The factor is how many DHS you are running.

Build 1
78% efficiency with 12DHS.

Build 2
Yet another build might be 35% heat efficiency with 20DHS.


Which is the more heat efficient build? Build 2 actually is because it has the DHS to cooldown/dissipate the heat MUCH after than the first build. This is a common trap for new players IMO as it's very unclear. Heat efficiency (for me) is all about how FAST you cool in game. Not what the mechlab/smurfy will tell you.

Hence a ASN21 for example, once it's hot, takes 7-10 seconds to cool off where a Clan mech with a similar load out (but 5-6 more cDHS) cools off in half the time.

So, it doesn’t matter about your percentage. It matters in how many heat sinks you have. I understand that more heat sinks make you cool faster, but does the percentage mean that your heat sinks balance out the heat of your weapons?

[Koniving]

Feezou, on 31 January 2018 - 11:58 AM, said:

So, it doesn’t matter about your percentage. It matters in how many heat sinks you have. I understand that more heat sinks make you cool faster, but does the percentage mean that your heat sinks balance out the heat of your weapons?

Yes. Under the assumption you are dumb enough to fire every weapon at the same time and the cooling power of against them before you fire again.

50% means you'll cool 50% of the heat you generated before you can fire them again.
35% means you'll cool 35% before you can fire them again.
200% means you'll cool off everything half way into being able to fire again.

Sad thing is... it kinda makes no sense because somehow it assumes you will fire everything at once, and goes at an assumed rate of 4 seconds for when you fire again... so basically it can lie to you if your weapons fall outside of that range.

And builds that use two or three firing groups that are meant to be used at different ranges can pretty much ignore the heat efficiency, since it doesn't apply to how you'd use them.

Also it lies to you additionally because even with a 200% heat efficiency, a single medium laser, 26 double heatsinks and the coldest maps, if you keep firing non-stop for 18 minutes, you will overheat If you override prior to this, you will explode soon after.

But that's because of hidden mechanics....

(To sample it much quicker, use 10 double heatsinks, still more than enough cooling power, but you'll explode in 10 minutes or less.)
Note, the crossed out section used to be true in 2014. It no longer seems to be true anymore. (Later post will bring about some proof that it once existed, though it no longer applies).

Edited by Koniving, 02 February 2018 - 01:30 PM.

[Kin3ticX]

https://docs.google....d.gb8ed7ef2_085

[TheSilken]

Koniving, on 31 January 2018 - 02:20 PM, said:

Yes. Under the assumption you are dumb enough to fire every weapon at the same time and the cooling power of against them before you fire again.

50% means you'll cool 50% of the heat you generated before you can fire them again.
35% means you'll cool 35% before you can fire them again.
200% means you'll cool off everything half way into being able to fire again.

Sad thing is... it kinda makes no sense because somehow it assumes you will fire everything at once, and goes at an assumed rate of 4 seconds for when you fire again... so basically it can lie to you if your weapons fall outside of that range.

And builds that use two or three firing groups that are meant to be used at different ranges can pretty much ignore the heat efficiency, since it doesn't apply to how you'd use them.

Also it lies to you additionally because even with a 200% heat efficiency, a single medium laser, 26 double heatsinks and the coldest maps, if you keep firing non-stop for 18 minutes, you will overheat If you override prior to this, you will explode soon after.

But that's because of hidden mechanics....

(To sample it much quicker, use 10 double heatsinks, still more than enough cooling power, but you'll explode in 10 minutes or less.)

What a load of bull****. Please, nobody new actually pay what he said any mind or put any weight on it. 1 Medium Laser cannot cause you to overheat with 10 DHS (let alone 24) regardless of the amount of times it is fired consecutively as soon as it comes off cooldown. It won't even get the heat bar to budge at all, even if you are running full tilt. If you do for some reason listen to him then please try it out for yourself by building a mech that fits his description and test it in the Testing Grounds.

Edited by TheSilken, 31 January 2018 - 04:20 PM.

[Crenuxe]

brb recording 1 hour of firing 1 medium laser in a locust to prove you wrong.

[TheSilken]

Crenuxe, on 31 January 2018 - 04:31 PM, said:

brb recording 1 hour of firing 1 medium laser in a locust to prove you wrong.

Lol. I already did 18+ minutes with 1 ML and 10 DHS on Frozen City but 1 hour would def do it.

[Koniving]

TheSilken, on 31 January 2018 - 04:13 PM, said:

What a load of bull****. Please, nobody new actually pay what he said any mind or put any weight on it. 1 Medium Laser cannot cause you to overheat with 10 DHS (let alone 24) regardless of the amount of times it is fired consecutively as soon as it comes off cooldown. It won't even get the heat bar to budge at all, even if you are running full tilt. If you do for some reason listen to him then please try it out for yourself by building a mech that fits his description and test it in the Testing Grounds.

Test it first, then call it.
Once you do, apologize.

[TheSilken]

Koniving, on 31 January 2018 - 04:52 PM, said:

Test it first, then call it.
Once you do, apologize.

I did test it. You are dead wrong. You should apologize for spreading false information.

[Koniving]

The hidden mechanic is known as "Heat Retention," as personally named by Paul Inouye, 3 years prior to the flamer rework which also uses "heat retention" as a mechanic to inflict onto others. It is originally a self inflicted mechanic, and while flamers and RACs use the most extreme examples of it, It is a relic from closed beta, never removed, to remove any potential advantages of being heat neutral. Any weapon, fired constantly, will gradually generate exponentially increasing heat. The only weapon this doesn't work with, exclusively due to how it works (charge and release to fire) is the Gauss Rifle.

TheSilken, on 31 January 2018 - 04:53 PM, said:

I did test it. You are dead wrong. You should apologize for spreading false information.

Bring the video. At the very least, did your heat bar start to rise? If so, then it needs more time. You cannot release the fire button and it does not count if set to change fire, as that deactivates the fire button.

Edited by Koniving, 31 January 2018 - 05:01 PM.

[TheSilken]

Koniving, on 31 January 2018 - 04:59 PM, said:

The hidden mechanic is known as "Heat Retention," as personally named by Paul Inouye, 3 years prior to the flamer rework which also uses "heat retention" as a mechanic to inflict onto others. It is originally a self inflicted mechanic, and while flamers and RACs use the most extreme examples of it, It is a relic from closed beta, never removed, to remove any potential advantages of being heat neutral. Any weapon, fired constantly, will gradually generate exponentially increasing heat. The only weapon this doesn't work with, exclusively due to how it works (charge and release to fire) is the Gauss Rifle.


You haven't tested it, it hasn't even been 10 minutes since I said it and you gave your two cents.

Actually I did, I spent 18+ minutes in the Training Grounds in 1 session firing that 1 Medium Laser continuously as soon as cooldown finished with only 10 DHS (despite knowing you are full of crap) before I made my first post in this thread and the results I got were the ones I mentioned in it. You are incorrect as per usual. How about you provide some proof of your claim seeing as anyone can duplicate my experience by testing it in the Training Grounds. I will even provide the build I used to go along with everything.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...480c154492f0ab1

Edited by TheSilken, 31 January 2018 - 05:09 PM.

[pdubz]

Koniving, on 31 January 2018 - 04:59 PM, said:

The hidden mechanic is known as "Heat Retention," as personally named by Paul Inouye, 3 years prior to the flamer rework which also uses "heat retention" as a mechanic to inflict onto others. It is originally a self inflicted mechanic, and while flamers and RACs use the most extreme examples of it, It is a relic from closed beta, never removed, to remove any potential advantages of being heat neutral. Any weapon, fired constantly, will gradually generate exponentially increasing heat. The only weapon this doesn't work with, exclusively due to how it works (charge and release to fire) is the Gauss Rifle.


Bring the video. At the very least, did your heat bar start to rise? If so, then it needs more time. You cannot release the fire button and it does not count if set to change fire, as that deactivates the fire button.

Proof please
Do u even know da waa?

[Koniving]

58 seconds into this video

That is what heat retention looks like in its most egregious form.

I'm trying to find the video where someone did this in 2013 and unfortunately youtube seems saturated with new flamer videos. We also had discussions about it in 2014 where me and several other players had discussions about some of the strange mechanics in MWO's heat system, including negative numbers and some of the old maps providing inconsistent heat gains (some fire effects in the original River City's destruction would generate heat but most would not). One thing that came up with the overheat in 10 minutes with a single 4 heat medium lasers and 10 double heatsinks, no skill tree. Where in 10 minutes despite it being mathematically impossible, he was at 95% and climbing by 7% with each firing even as he'd go down 3% with each second.

[TheSilken]

Koniving, on 31 January 2018 - 05:11 PM, said:

58 seconds into this video

That is what heat retention looks like in its most egregious form.

I'm trying to find the video where someone did this in 2013 and unfortunately youtube seems saturated with new flamer videos. We also had discussions about it in 2014 where me and several other players had discussions about some of the strange mechanics in MWO's heat system, including negative numbers and some of the old maps providing inconsistent heat gains (some fire effects in the original River City's destruction would generate heat but most would not). One thing that came up with the overheat in 10 minutes with a single 4 heat medium lasers and 10 double heatsinks, no skill tree. Where in 10 minutes despite it being mathematically impossible, he was at 95% and climbing by 7% with each firing even as he'd go down 3% with each second.

LOL this is your proof? We are talking about a Medium Laser not a Flamer. We already know that even 1 Flamer can eventually cause your mech to overheat due to having the heat mechanic you are talking about, we are discussing your claim that ALL weapons except the Gauss Rifle have this mechanic when only the Flamer does. How about you find some actual proof dude either from the game files or with a current video and not an outdated video from 3+ years ago. Btw current as in this patch seeing as this is the patch the OP is talking about and not previous ones.

[Koniving]

Going to be really upset if these quacks deleted the videos. The one of a single flamer overheating a mech shown to have 26 double heatsinks to the point of self destruction, and the other of doing the same with a single medium laser are two of the three most solid pieces of evidence. The third, being words from the mouth of Paul Inouye has as much weight as "You'll never get your madcat" and "repair and rearm will be coming back."

But 2014 references brought these:

Koniving, on 20 June 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

Hm. From the subject it was hard to tell if referring to ghost heat or heat retention. Of the two at least HR makes sense even if it's only proven to be applied to 3 weapon types and suspected of being applied to 4.

But yes. Ghost heat is still here.

It's properly titled "Heatscale."

Koniving, on 31 March 2014 - 08:15 PM, said:

Spoiler

Except it doesn't.
For example, you can fire 2 large lasers, 2 PPCs, and 6 medium lasers at the same time with no punishment, or 9 Medium Pulse Lasers (more than 6 lasers, much more powerful, etc) without a single penalty. Oh and you get a penalty if you fire three LRM-10s, but an LRM-20 + 2 LRM-5s gets no penalty. Two LRM-20s gets no penalty, but 2 LRM 20s + an LRM-10 gets a penalty (50). Yet you can fire two LRM-15s and 4 LRM-5s gets no penalty (50). Yet, you can fire 2 LRM-20s + 4 LRM-5s (60) and get no penalty.

We have the threshold of 40 to an excess of 100. Note that threshold is maximum alpha strike potential.
In tabletop, the threshold to shutdown is 30, but it also had 10 seconds of cooling.
MWO condenses that '10 seconds' into a buffer of free threshold + your real cooling.
If you were to take 30 threshold, and real double heatsinks (0.2 cooling per DHS per second), you'd be able to fire 3 PPCs and shutdown. 2 ER PPCs and shutdown. 7 medium lasers and if you were moving, shutdown (8 if they were at Tabletop heat instead). Large lasers? MWO-heat, you can fire 4 large lasers and if moving, shut down. If this was tabletop heat, you would instantly shut down if you fired 4 large lasers, or if you fired 3 large lasers and 2 medium lasers. You could manage one strike of 6 LRM-15s, instantly shutting down in the process and being disabled for about eh... 15 seconds before back to 0 with 10 DHS.

Ghost heat, as you can probably see from some of the limits, tries to replicate this artificially by punishing you with extra heat as a way of making up for some flaws in the liberal changes the developers decided to make.

So here's the logic that Heat Scale (ghost heat) uses.
If 30 shuts you down in the source material, and 2 PPCs hits 20... then reasoning says it's safe to fire 2 PPCs without a penalty.
But then people will complain about using a lighter weapon, the large laser, and stacking to get 27 damage out of a single firing. So we'll limit that to 2 weapons, too.
But wait, we can't do that to medium lasers because then they would be useless. I know, if 7 (8 with original heat) would shut someone down with some excess beyond 30, yet is safe to fire 6... then we'll let them fire 6 without a penalty.

Keep in mind that while ghost heat can make some sense, it's trying to force adherence to the original rules without using the original rules...and it honestly fails at it horribly. The original rules make a lot more sense. Think about how different it would be, if you knew that no matter how many heatsinks you had if you fired 1 medium laser you would spike to 13.33% heat. And if you fired 2, you'd spike to 26.67% heat. And if you fired 6, you'd spike to 93.33% heat, would you ever fire them all at once again? No. Because the second you did that on Terra Therma you'd self-destruct.

In MWO's closed beta, if you hit 100% heat and had any form of ammunition you instantly exploded. And if you rode above 80% heat, your heatsinks would take damage, causing loss in ability to cool and drops in threshold (something I want abolished; rising and lowering thresholds). Also your weapons took damage. So did your ammo. And your actuators (removed effects), engine (no effect but zomg talk about expensive!), and life support (no effect).

Thus, back then when the typical thresholds was between 36 (minimum) and 47 (average high-end) with single heatsinks, everyone chainfired. And now, with a threshold of 30 and real DHS, people would still chain fire. Yes you cool faster making it safe to fire sooner, but you could never, ever, fire even 6 ML without risking some serious punishment to yourself on a hotter map. However, we got rising thresholds. A rather foolish design decision that caters to the one button kill playstyles running rampant from those migrating here from games like Call of Duty.

Le sigh.

There are some parts that make sense. In essence, your engine would heat more. And it does anyway, there's another mechanic at play called Heat Retention.

All we really know is it borks any actual math involved when you constantly fire the same weapon, generating more heat every time it's fired if you do not let go of the trigger.

Problem is it only affects certain weapons. Flamers are one of them. Medium lasers are another. But it doesn't affect Large Lasers, or small lasers.

Anyway, I seem to have failed to find those specific videos. Perhaps they have finally removed the old hackjob to stop heat neutrality in MWO. ATD Answers 20 through 31 repeatedly bring up heat neutrality. One answer, given by David, shows why Heat Retention was originally created long before ghost heat, by showing their stance against heat neutrality and heat neutral builds. I haven't tested it in quite some time, but flamer and RAC heat mechanics are effectively based on Heat Retention. 2014 was when I got the name of it.

I'm gonna send you something fun. You can believe me or not. But if it is no longer there (then great), it was at one point.

[justcallme A S H]

TheSilken, on 31 January 2018 - 04:13 PM, said:

What a load of bull****. Please, nobody new actually pay what he said any mind or put any weight on it. 1 Medium Laser cannot cause you to overheat with 10 DHS (let alone 24) regardless of the amount of times it is fired consecutively as soon as it comes off cooldown. It won't even get the heat bar to budge at all, even if you are running full tilt. If you do for some reason listen to him then please try it out for yourself by building a mech that fits his description and test it in the Testing Grounds.

+1

I cannot believe what I am reading... Dead set, no clue what he is talking about as usual.

This is the problem with the New Player forum... Too many people giving out totally bogus/wrong advice because they don't understand how the game works.