38 replies to this topic

[Callsigntal0n]

TheArisen I would be fine with a mk2 owens. but thus far the only counter I have seen to my arguments is "its not meta and it sucks in tabletop" this is a video game first and foremost. secondly I would hardly called not being able to add Endo and Ferro "gimping" the mech. it wouldn't NEED to be quirked to hell and back for it to work, a basic +5ish armor around the board should be fine enough. the chassis wasn't meant to carry a **** load of weapons. all mechs have their usages. the owens would be a spotter in the MWO meta with decent hit and run capability especially with artemis srms and a trio of medium lasers

[TheArisen]

Callsigntal0n, on 03 February 2018 - 07:09 PM, said:

TheArisen I would be fine with a mk2 owens. but thus far the only counter I have seen to my arguments is "its not meta and it sucks in tabletop" this is a video game first and foremost. secondly I would hardly called not being able to add Endo and Ferro "gimping" the mech. it wouldn't NEED to be quirked to hell and back for it to work, a basic +5ish armor around the board should be fine enough. the chassis wasn't meant to carry a **** load of weapons. all mechs have their usages. the owens would be a spotter in the MWO meta with decent hit and run capability especially with artemis srms and a trio of medium lasers

This isn't about the endo & ferro only, it has locked shs as well as locked tag & bap. It will lack tonnage, heat efficiency and firepower compared to other 35 ton mechs and on top of that it's a little slower than other lights. This has nothing to do with TT and everything to do with MWO.

[cougurt]

Callsigntal0n, on 03 February 2018 - 07:09 PM, said:

TheArisen I would be fine with a mk2 owens. but thus far the only counter I have seen to my arguments is "its not meta and it sucks in tabletop" this is a video game first and foremost. secondly I would hardly called not being able to add Endo and Ferro "gimping" the mech. it wouldn't NEED to be quirked to hell and back for it to work, a basic +5ish armor around the board should be fine enough. the chassis wasn't meant to carry a **** load of weapons. all mechs have their usages. the owens would be a spotter in the MWO meta with decent hit and run capability especially with artemis srms and a trio of medium lasers

the problem isn’t that it wouldn’t be meta, it’s that it would be significantly worse than every other light mech in the game. the only way it could be made relevant would be if they gave it ridiculously strong quirks, or if they were to allow it full upgrade and equipment customization, which seems unlikely to me since that would be inconsistent with how the clan omnis work.

[Bombast]

Just to remind everyone.

If you're one of those brave (Or superior) players who shave their light's head armor, you can squeeze another half ton out of it for 8 tons of pod space.

Callsigntal0n, on 03 February 2018 - 07:09 PM, said:

secondly I would hardly called not being able to add Endo and Ferro "gimping" the mech.

It loses two tons of pod space being locked into standard construction tech. That would be a 25% increase in available tonnage.

Quote

it wouldn't NEED to be quirked to hell and back for it to work, a basic +5ish armor around the board should be fine enough.

I very much doubt that. The Urbanmech UM-R68L has 14 extra armor on it's missile arm (for a total of 34 armor), and that board flies off the minute someone realizes that they don't have to actually kill the Urbie to make it useless. 29 armor on the dump trucks the Owens calls arms is unlikely to keep them on.

Quote

the chassis wasn't meant to carry a **** load of weapons. all mechs have their usages. the owens would be a spotter in the MWO meta with decent hit and run capability especially with artemis srms and a trio of medium lasers

Spotters are not exactly well regarded around here. And even if they were, the Owens would be the worst spotter available in MWO.

[ROSS-128]

The standard heatsinks alone basically make it DOA, especially on a light mech. The inability to use endo is just adding insult to injury at that point.

[Metus regem]

TheArisen, on 03 February 2018 - 06:39 PM, said:

I feel left out haha

Sorry Arisen, but I don't think we've had 10 or 15 conversations about IS Omni mechs to the same depth I know I've had with those I mentioned....

[Kargush]

Fight me.

[Bombast]

Kargush, on 03 February 2018 - 09:44 PM, said:

Spoiler

Fight me.

I'll gladly fight that immobile junk heap. Come at me, bro!

[Kargush]

Bombast, on 03 February 2018 - 09:51 PM, said:

I'll gladly fight that immobile junk heap. Come at me, bro!

You have a deal! Once both those are out, we'll have a fight one-on-one!

[Bombast]

Kargush, on 03 February 2018 - 09:55 PM, said:

You have a deal! Once both those are out, we'll have a fight one-on-one!

[cougurt]

Kargush, on 03 February 2018 - 09:44 PM, said:

Fight me.

i actually do want the hauptmann. high mounted heavy gauss would be cool, and it would hopefully get good quirks to compensate for the lack of endo and fixed standard engine.

[Kargush]

Bombast, on 03 February 2018 - 10:01 PM, said:

My body is ready.

[Alex Morgaine]

Mk II shouldn't be too hard to introduce:
Lfe, endo, dhs, tag/bap and case in every build, but not hard locked. Optimize armor, turn extra weight into ecm/ams Bam!

[Y E O N N E]

TheArisen, on 03 February 2018 - 06:39 PM, said:

I feel left out haha

You feel left out? IS Omnis, especially the Raptor, have been my thing for two years now.

It was even me who discovered and pointed out all the best options...

[TheArisen]

Yeonne Greene, on 03 February 2018 - 11:24 PM, said:

You feel left out? IS Omnis, especially the Raptor, have been my thing for two years now.

It was even me who discovered and pointed out all the best options...

Yeah but I've also been a proponent of the Men Shen for a while as well. *shrug

[Jay Leon Hart]

Bombast, on 03 February 2018 - 05:32 PM, said:

It's companions should probably be ... the Sunder (Or Templar, if you're a degenerate).

Why yes, yes I am

[Jay Leon Hart]

This is about the best the Owens gets for hardpoints (using this as a guide). The AMS ammo represents the TAG. I ignored the C3. Maybe this with 3E, 2M instead.

What amazing things can you do with 6E, 8 tons and SHS?

I'd be fine with the Owens (or Strider, or Perseus, or Hauptmann) if it meant we got IS OmnMechs at last, but for me (and seemingly a few others), they are the bottom of the barrel choices.

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 04 February 2018 - 02:34 AM.

[Koniving]

Callsigntal0n, on 03 February 2018 - 05:46 PM, said:

the whole point is the Omni tech. standard structure and standard armor while sure increase the weight it (in theory) balances itself, less weight equals less weapons the whole point behind an Omni is the customization. want a laser boat? by all the laser omnis. etc. of course you could make non lore adjustments and give it endo as an example but even that would be lore as the Blake owens sported endo. and even if they unmounts the TAG and BAP that would only free maybe 4 tons? the owens would have the same firepower as its predecessor the Jenner and would mount closer to the same weapons as the raven. (though personally I would keep the standard configurations with maybe some tweaks t oincrease armor values such as taking of fthe small laser.) with some thought it Could work. and hell even if it was DOA I would still play it and buy it. (owens is my #1 favorite mech. much bias.

The secret about Omnitech is that it isn't a matter of "You can't put endo on the mech" but a "Why would you?"

What makes a mech an omnimech in lore isn't some special construction, but an agreement of manufacturers to produce a special line of various equipment that are all interchangeable on the chassis, fitting location, space, shape, and connection requirements to be able to be disconnected, removed, replaced, installed, connected, tested and functional within minutes rather than numerous hours and jerry rigging.

As such, changing the structure would basically take weeks (putting it out of commission for as long or longer) to months. The space changes would then make many if not all of the omni-equipment you had for that specific mech completely useless because they won't be able to fit right or might not be able to reach the connections, may leave gaps, and this is all assuming you didn't have to remold the entire set of armor in order to stretch it around the new, significantly thicker skeleton (there's a reason the endo steel + ferro 20 and 25 ton mechs were over 11 meters tall, the size of most heavier mediums and lighter heavies). As such you'd need the industry and resources to make a new array of custom omni-equipment for the new changes.

Comstar had that industry. Hell all the money out there was based on the Comstar Bill, they could print money if they wanted. They also had the best tech.
Your average merc would not.
Your average military grunt couldn't ask for it.
And even your crack military units would have to justify it and then enlist companies to produce the new equipment... likely at a premium as your only military unit would have this 'special' omnimech.

Beyond this, the fact that very few endo-making facilities existed, 1 or 2 of which the Clans had already claimed even though the inferior facilities were worthless to them, meant that only certain factions could produce resupplies to their specially done mechs. Of the 8 facilities in IS space, some factions had zero, Comstar had two, the Clans captured two, and the next highest concentration is in Marik space. (This is why M(arik) variants have a lot of endo use). They sell their stuff to the other companies in other factions, as otherwise they basically wouldn't have enough endo to do any major mods like that.

So making an IS omni with endo, for example, wouldn't make sense for most factions. But that's a lore perspective, and as such if we adhered to that we'd never be able to change the skeletons on mechs. (Ferro is a dime a dozen). MWO adheres to lore about as much as the Alien versus Predator gimmick compared to Ridley's intended lore, in which basically all the AVP videos are impossible (as is the cameo in Predator 2).

In other words TL;DR:
From lore it makes great sense.
In MWO it'd be stupid to not modify them to suit the game with at least double heatsinks or DHS quality SHS... MWO made SHS worthless by how they chose to do the heat system. That isn't the fault of BT, that's PGI's decisions with things such as 3 to 19 times source material firing rates with 100% heat per shot and full damage per shot of many of them. This basically makes many IS omnis as they are in source material barely functional and a waste. As such PGI must make changes to allow them to function competitively in game rather than be a crutch. Their stalling in producing any is just the realization that they ****** up and have no idea how to go around it yet.

Edited by Koniving, 04 February 2018 - 02:48 AM.

[FLG 01]

Callsigntal0n, on 03 February 2018 - 07:09 PM, said:

thus far the only counter I have seen to my arguments is "its not meta and it sucks in tabletop" this is a video game first and foremost.

... a video game in which, considering all the available data, the Owens would be a bad addition. I think this old "not every Mech has to be meta"-argument died in the flames of a thousand burning Thanatoi*.
And that's something you have to keep in mind: if a Mech is too bad on the battlefield, you won't have fun with it either. Note I am not saying fun is only about min-maxing latest meta stuff; I am saying your Mech needs to have a reasonable chance on the battlefield if you want to enjoy it on a regular basis.

It is true that the Owens could be quirked massively to work well in MWO. That is true for every single Mech, so that's not an argument. The chassis itself is dreadfully inept.



* ...the Thanatos is, btw., not as bad as you'd think. But it has objective weaknesses people ignored at their own peril. Much of the disappointment could have been avoided by rationally analyzing the Mech.

Edited by FLG 01, 04 February 2018 - 05:41 AM.