37 replies to this topic

[Yanlowen Cage]

This is totally a (in theory) idea. Seeing as how the new tech roll out has been some what successful I had an idea to add to it that is non-canon. How about the I.S. get a 2 slot heat sink that dissipates 1.5 heat in the engine and 1.25 outside the engine? Call them Compact heat sinks or what ever. I know that heat is always an issue for both clan and I.S. but the IS takes up a lot with endo, ferro and XLs. so with the advent of light engines and light ferro, why not compact advance heat sinks? The I.S. may or may not need these and numbers may not be perfect to warrant their use, but hey just an Idea.


Oh Yeah Discuss.

[Bombast]

Compact Heat Sinks?

Sarna said:

With the increasing use of lighter but more bulky structural components such as XL Engines, Ferro-Fibrous armor, Endo Steel chassis and massive Gauss Rifles in Inner Sphere BattleMech designs after the initial Clan Invasion, designers found that while they still had weight to spare that they were often left with less space to install other equipment such as additional heat sinks beyond those mounted as part of the Fusion Engine.[1][2]

Unable to match the size reduction of Clan-tech Double Heat Sinks and Inner Sphere versions only adding to the problem, researchers in the Federated Commonwealth instead turned to reducing the size of standard heat sinks. By 3058 the New Avalon Institute of Science had developed prototypes of so-called Compact Heat Sinks, with two single-strength compact heat sinks able to fit into the space of a one standard heat sink. Unfortunately much like the Compact Engine and Gyro, the use of denser but more compact materials increases the weight of each compact heat sink by half, generally restricting their use to heavier 'Mechs who have weight to spare.[1][2]

Compact Heat Sinks are thus far exclusive to the Inner Sphere, with the Clans' reductions in the bulk of advanced armor, engines and chassis components making the situation much less critical for them.

Edited by Bombast, 06 February 2018 - 12:15 PM.

[FupDup]

Bombast, on 06 February 2018 - 12:12 PM, said:

Compact Heat Sinks?

Compact Heatsinks accomplish the nearly unthinkable goal of actually being worse than SHS.

But really, I think PGI should just buff SHS instead of making up their own new type. Use what we've already got.

Edited by FupDup, 06 February 2018 - 12:49 PM.

[GrimReaper74]

FupDup, on 06 February 2018 - 12:41 PM, said:

Compact Heatsinks accomplish the nearly unthinkable goal of actually being worse than SHS.

But really, I think PGI should just buff SHS instead of making up their own new type. Use what we've already got.

I am not sure if they would be worse. They are basically 2 SHS with 1 crit slot and a weight of 3 tons. They would be something worthwhile given the fact that in MWO gameterms they would be more effective than DHS.

[FupDup]

GrimReaper74, on 06 February 2018 - 05:03 PM, said:

I am not sure if they would be worse. They are basically 2 SHS with 1 crit slot and a weight of 3 tons. They would be something worthwhile given the fact that in MWO gameterms they would be more effective than DHS.

The weight is the kicker. 3 tons for 2 SHS worth of cooling is a horribly bad deal. Even crit-starved builds don't have enough tonnage to offset that.

[Y E O N N E]

GrimReaper74, on 06 February 2018 - 05:03 PM, said:

I am not sure if they would be worse. They are basically 2 SHS with 1 crit slot and a weight of 3 tons. They would be something worthwhile given the fact that in MWO gameterms they would be more effective than DHS.

If you are running out of slots with that much weight left over, you've left either a lot of engine or a lot of firepower on the table.

[ROSS-128]

It gets better/worse: compact heatsinks give you the same engine cooling as SHS. So for the 15 TONS you would spend just closing the engine gap, you could easily up your engine rating by 25-100 to not only go faster, but also move some DHS into the engine where they cost you zero crits.

That said, I suppose I wouldn't mind PGI scrapping the dumpster fire that is TT compact heatsinks, and recycling the name for a whole new piece of equipment that actually works.

I think one way I might redo/fix compact heatsinks is as follows:
1: they give you 20 engine cooling just like DHS.
2: they take up one full slot with DHS cooling, to simplify bookkeeping (or you can look at it as "they must be mounted in pairs in order to fill slots").
3: A full slot/pair weighs 1.5t, because 3t was still excessive. Endo and Ferro make it *abundantly* clear that paying 2t to free up 2 crits is a terrible deal. 0.5t for 2 crits is... less terrible, especially when not having to make up a huge engine gap.

Of course, the problem with SHS being useless for basically all the same reasons would still be there.

[InvictusLee]

Man. I dont care what they actually do.
But i want heat sinks that add spines to my mechs where ever they are equipped.
Meaning thatnif they are ib my arms or torso, i get some cool, but neaningless godzilla spikes.

[ROSS-128]

Well I don't know about spines, but if they add laser heatsinks then clan laser vomit mechs would be able to throw the best raves.

[InvictusLee]

ROSS-128, on 06 February 2018 - 07:16 PM, said:

Well I don't know about spines, but if they add laser heatsinks then clan laser vomit mechs would be able to throw the best raves.

im down for mech raves.

[Khobai]

just make all IS DHS into true double heatsinks

thats all thats needed

[Kanil]

ROSS-128, on 06 February 2018 - 05:43 PM, said:

3: A full slot/pair weighs 1.5t, because 3t was still excessive. Endo and Ferro make it *abundantly* clear that paying 2t to free up 2 crits is a terrible deal. 0.5t for 2 crits is... less terrible, especially when not having to make up a huge engine gap.

I think you might as well just stick with 3 tons, and just balance the dissipation to the point that they'd be useful. No real need to make them weigh less when you can just make them dissipate more.

[Jeldar Darkmantle]

How about the compact heat sinks working as per the rules except they double the number if heat sinks which fit in the engine?

[GrimReaper74]

FupDup, on 06 February 2018 - 05:06 PM, said:

The weight is the kicker. 3 tons for 2 SHS worth of cooling is a horribly bad deal. Even crit-starved builds don't have enough tonnage to offset that.

You are aware though that their efficiency would be higher then engine DHS?

Khobai, on 06 February 2018 - 07:37 PM, said:

just make all IS DHS into true double
thats all thats needed

Why should they do that without doing that for the clan dhs as well? After all IS energy weapons run cooler, bigger IS weapons have a higher ghost heat threshold, IS small and er small lasers do not incur ghost heat at all and all of them have quicker cooldown and burn times.

So basically, higher damage of clan energy weapons is already counterbalanced by the longer recharges and burns. To reach the same heat efficiency of the IS weapons, a clan mech would need to mount around 1-2 additional DHS.

[TELEFORCE]

Treat all 'mechs with single heatsinks in the engine as if they're all doubles. That would solve a lot of problems with stock 'mechs. Why PGI hasn't pursued this idea is beyond me.

[Nema Nabojiv]

GrimReaper74, on 07 February 2018 - 03:08 AM, said:

Why should they do that without doing that for the clan dhs as well? After all IS energy weapons run cooler, bigger IS weapons have a higher ghost heat threshold, IS small and er small lasers do not incur ghost heat at all and all of them have quicker cooldown and burn times.

What people fail to understand in this thread and all the ones like it, is that the factions, the weapons, and the weightclasses balance is built upon heat and double heatsinks being what they.

This therefore means that any change to any heatsink means rebalancing everything again from scratch. This will never happen, or at least I hope so, for two reasons:
1. In general everything works reasonably well right now to make such drastic changes
2. The things that dont work well can be balanced individually without, again, screwing everything up.

[ROSS-128]

GrimReaper74, on 07 February 2018 - 03:08 AM, said:

You are aware though that their efficiency would be higher then engine DHS?

How is 3t 1c for 2 cooling more efficient than 0t 0c for 2 cooling, or even 1t 0c for 1.5 cooling if you mean the bonus slots?

Especially since going with compacts will drop your engine cooling to 10, leaving you spending tonnage just to break even? Are we really going to have to break out graphs and charts to explain exactly why compact heatsinks were garbage?

Regarding keeping the tonnage the same but upping the cooling, at 3t a pair of compact heatsinks would have to provide 4 cooling or something similarly ridiculous to be comparable to DHS. 3 cooling for 3t would make them comparable to SHS... but the problem with that is SHS are garbage too!

[aardappelianen]

maybe we need something like chemical ''heatsinks" that weighs 1t, cost 1 crit and provide the cooling of a double heatsink but deteriorates over time / use and can be put in a fire group and activated

first thing i found when googling ''chemical heatsink"

"Another type of ice pack uses the endothermic reaction of ammonium nitrate and water to cool down quickly. When one breaks a tube inside the pack the ammonium nitrate is released allowing it to mix with the water. Other chemicals which produce a similar effect include calcium chloride (exothermic reaction) and ammonium chloride."

Edited by aardappelianen, 07 February 2018 - 05:43 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

FupDup, on 06 February 2018 - 05:06 PM, said:

The weight is the kicker. 3 tons for 2 SHS worth of cooling is a horribly bad deal. Even crit-starved builds don't have enough tonnage to offset that.

Compact HS doing 1.5 tons for every 2-slot with 2x SHS dissipation and capacity would make sense.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 07 February 2018 - 05:50 AM.

[Kanil]

ROSS-128, on 07 February 2018 - 05:17 AM, said:

Regarding keeping the tonnage the same but upping the cooling, at 3t a pair of compact heatsinks would have to provide 4 cooling or something similarly ridiculous to be comparable to DHS. 3 cooling for 3t would make them comparable to SHS... but the problem with that is SHS are garbage too!

So make them provide 4, it's not a big deal. You can have a viable CHS for MWO while still adhering to TT construction rules.