Faction play balance threads seem to either be places for whining about getting face-stomped and farmed or they are proposing massive overhauls to the game mode (R&R, unit logistics, group caps, more persistent bukkits, etc). This is not that. I want to propose subtle changes to how we interact with Faction play that I think can have a positive effect on game play balance and fun levels.
1) Make Factions Independent.
I am not proposing a FFA like we used to have, I am 100% behind the 1 bukkit system. When I say make the factions independent, I am talking about internal coding for the game. Right now, we essentially have only 2 factions (IS and Clan) that are each comprised of several sub-teams (the houses and the clans). So for example, weight is decided on a Clan/IS basis which is really broad. Having the system recognize smaller groups can allow much needed flexibility to balancing projects. Here are some reasons/upsides for doing this:
Spoiler
A) Weight balancing.
Currently there is a 25 ton discrepancy between IS and Clan drop weights. Clans Steel Viper, Nova Cat, and Diamond Shark seem completely unaffected by this discrepancy as they have the three highest winning percentages among all the factions. However, Clan Wolf clearly struggles with the weight disadvantage as they rock the worst win/loss ratio of all factions. Breaking the tonnage limits down by faction allows a more fair handicapping that treats Steel Vipers differently than Wolfs and Liaos differently from Steiners.
B) In-Universe appropriateness.
During our current timeline era, Nova Cat flips sides and fights for the IS. At some point, we are going to want to have a clan faction using clantech dropping alongside IS factions against the other clanners. So, from a PGI point of view, most of this work is going to have to be done at some point anyways. The FRR will be absorbed by Ghost Bear and will use IS tech to fight alongside clanners against the IS. (We will see about mixed tech. (and that is a whole separate debate for another day (and with another person))
C) Political rearranging.
The clan invasion is the central battlefield for FW, but it doesn't need to be politically static. As this is just a game, we can even allow some political rearrangements for the sake of fun. For a special event, PGI could easily have Ghost Bear and the FRR have a joint invasion of Wolf. If we ever have a Jade Falcon super-faction problem again, PGI can make the other clans turn on the overachievers and have the falcons v. all. The idea is that we gain a bit of flexibility to have more fun with the political battle lines. Heck, they could even have a temporary rift in the normal war to have the main bukkit have clans and IS on each side (like East v West). This game mode is a fictionalization of a fictional universe, so they can play with the politics.
This is the most work intensive change I propose, everything else should just be tweaks of numbers and tweaks to the current UI. But as argued in B), these are changes that PGI is going to have to implement at some point anyways. Meaning, I am not proposing new projects and bloating a budget, I am asking that they prioritize doing something that they already have to do.
2) More Factions
This seems pretty self explanatory.
Spoiler
Add more Clans, Periphery States, and maybe St. Ives and/or the Wobbies. Smaller the population groups, the fewer outliers that get caught in balancing decisions that hurt them (again, see Clan wolf). This will have little effect on the main bukkit as the new factions will just be added to one side or the other. St. Ives for example could either be given its own space or be a faction within Davion or Liao similar to the clans and Marik could be joined by the wobbies. This could eventually lay the groundwork for advancing into the Jihad era where the main bukkit can be between wobbies, periphery nations, and some clans against the main houses and other clans. We can keep a one bukkit system and still do the Jihad and Wars of the reaving at the same time.
Financially, this is a small project for PGI. they have already added more clans and presumably can continue to add such factions for little continued cost. This does not need a reworking a any major internal systems so new work/labor hours for this would be minimal.
3) A non-persistent Side Bukkit
Single bukkit has been really good for getting matches. Any idea that proposes ditching single bukkit in favor the old system is bad. Again, I like the 1 bukkit system.That being said, single bukkit is bad for variety and faction pride. The promised, but so far poorly implemented, special event system needs to become more regular.
Spoiler
Having a roving side bukkit most weeks would have little impact on the wait times for the main bukkit and should help provide an improved recruiting grounds (as new players can be taught in an environment that should have less of a competitive gap. These special events can be used to draw players in and give them a spot where not all of the top units are repeatedly going to cue against them. But, these side bukkits will not always be there so the southern houses cant just ignore the Clan front like they used to, and new players cannot only play those presumably less intense matches. More importantly, with independent factions we can have some truly fun side bukkits. I look forward to seeing Kurita, Marik, and Liao all ganging up on Davion for a day or some other mix as listed above. With the more factions, these side bukkits should only come around to a faction a few times each month.
Importantly, this does not need a reworking a any major internal systems, it just needs a better utilization of a tool that they have already made. New work/labor hours for this would be minimal.
4) Rework Mercs
Spoiler
One of the keys to balance is having a stable population, and the unpredictability of Mercs has most certainly has been an issue for PGI's balance ideas in the past. Also, the game still gives more daily benefits to Mercs (Cbill pay). We should be able to kill two birds here. First, to give loyalist a bone here, Mercs get -10 tons to the faction they are signed up with. (I just picked -10, I am not tied to that exact number, -5 could work too. The idea is to give loyalists a slight advantage in weight but a disadvantage in earnings.) So if Davion weight Cap is 255, mercs signing with them would have a 245 ton cap. On the flip side, give Mercs a 5% cbill boost for the first week they renew a contract and a 7.5% boost for any subsequent renewals. So week 1 a merc would get whatever base price the faction offers given their population size, week 2 (first renew) they get and added 5%, and every renewal after that they have a 7.5% bonus (does not compound). The idea is to encourage multi-week stays in one place, which can help PGI with balancing adjustments, while not giving bonus so large as to dissuade people from ever moving.
This should be a small project for PGI that should take very few work/labor hours. Most of the work should be covered by the work in section 1).
Put briefly, break the bar into however many planets we think should be up for grabs at once; right now that is four planets. So, each 1/4 of the bar represents a planet. If clans end the cycle with the bar about 60% past even, they would get 2 planets. Every single faction would vote for their own target, but wins and tags would be a bit different. The idea is to reward factions for good performance and keep the map moving even if the bar is not at 100%. (But if we wanted to increase the amount of planets at stake and decrease the amount each win contributed, I see no reason in principle this could not be done. It should just be as easy as changing a few numbers on the back end, but I am not here to argue about the number of planets at stake)
Planet victories would be assigned based on wins and participation: each win earns a faction .75 points, and participation earns 0.25 points (so a win actually gets 1 full point as winners participate). We could have scouting participation count a .05 and scouting win as .2 (making four scouting wins equal to 1 regular FP drop.
On a night when the IS won 3 planets, lets say the point totals were like this:
Liao 648 points
FRR 530.25
Davion 402
Marik 397.75
Kurita 388.5
Steiner 360
Lets also, pretend that Davion does not share clan border. Liao would take the planet they voted for and the top Liao unit would get the tag. FRR would take the planet they voted for and the top FRR unit would get the tag. Davion, because they share no border with the clans, would not take a planet on the map, but their top unit would get the tags on the next planet taken. Marik would take the planet they voted for, but the top Davion unit would get the tag.
Conversely, a night where clanners win 4 planets:
Vipers 728 points
Sharks 615
Falcons 610.75
Bears 497.75
Cats 388.5
Jags 360
Wolves 317.5
Because several clan factions share space, they also need to share polls. Falcons, because they share space with the Vipers, would take the planet the Vipers/Falcons voted for most and the top Viper unit would get the tag. Wolves, because they share space with the Sharks, would take the planet the Wolves/Sharks voted for most and the top Shark unit would get the tag. Falcons would take the planet the Vipers/Falcons voted for second most and the top Falcon unit would get the tag. Bears would take the planet they voted for most and the top Bear unit would get the tag.
This helps keep rewards from piling all to one faction (to disincentivize super-factions) while also not rewarding under performing factions from reaping all of the benefits from having a larger voting base. More importantly, it encourages participation even when the bar is not far along. Currently, if you login with 2 hours left in the cycle and the bar is right in the middle, there is little reason to play, nobody is capping that night. But if you only need to move the bar 25% in your favor, the task of capping a planet is within your grasp.
Most importantly, while this sounds like a major departure from our current system, it really isn't. This takes the clan model for voting and applies it to all factions, takes the tagging system and applies it to how planets are captured. All of the data used in this system is already collected and used by the game, it just applies it in a slightly different manner.
6) Factions take what they capture.
If the FRR voted to attack a Clan occupied Kurita planet and they "win" the planet, then the planet goes to FRR not Kurita. No more of this giving the planet back to the original IS owner. That is lame crap.
This should be very little work and it cost very little. But on this one, I don't care about the cost. Fix this. It was a really dumb idea from the outset.
On the whole, these changes should be pretty cost effective, while doing a lot to improve balance and reduce staleness in FW.
Edited by Cato Zilks, 05 February 2018 - 05:58 PM.
look up this term.Failure Cascade. It started with phase 3. Once the symptoms of a failure cascade are noticeably visible it cannot be stopped.
No amount of bukkit warfare. Balance by tonnage (LOL). Or lore band-aide Can stop the player bleed out.
I thought there were some specific faction v faction conflicts that were done but I'm having trouble finding them.
Anyhow, it seems like it would be possible to do things like have the Nova Cats fight for the IS and have the FRR combine with GB without needing any development work.
It's little more than saying the FRR is part of the 'Clan' pool and Nova Cats are part of the 'IS' pool under the current system.
That'll confuse players signing onto those factions.
I thought there were some specific faction v faction conflicts that were done but I'm having trouble finding them.
Anyhow, it seems like it would be possible to do things like have the Nova Cats fight for the IS and have the FRR combine with GB without needing any development work.
They did faction v faction events,but they did not write the game in a way to let clan and IS form up together. I believe Russ was asked about this when he talked about merging the bukkits, he said that the game was was written as having just two factions.
AFAIK FRR people could not currently form a 12 man with CGB people. I am basing my comments on what can and cant be done on the statements of Russ, who does not code the game.
More importantly, the simple IS or Clan line prevents variable weight for each individual faction. Poor little Clan Wolf has been trash for years now but they have to play the same weight as the merc heavy Vipers and Cats.
its a two bucket system. the reason its a two bucket system is that people on the same side are in the same bucket and cannot play eachother. so 2 buckets. a 1 bucket system would allow for any team to play any other team reguardless of faction alignment. we could drop from a 2 bucket to a 1 bucket system. this would have the odd possibility of having teams on the same faction fight eachother from time to time, not like there arent civil wars and coup attempts and revolutions and things like that in the battletech universe.
scoring gets complicated. so civil wars would be scored differently than clan vs is. the latter scoring planets, maybe the former can influence your faction's power within the alliance, fight for a larger share of the vote so that your faction's choice of planets takes precedence over those of another, less well performing faction. so if jade falcon is winning they might find themselves picking all the targets. its certainly better than the fp event system that pgi never uses.
LordNothing, on 05 February 2018 - 07:51 PM, said:
its a two bucket system. the reason its a two bucket system is that people on the same side are in the same bucket and cannot play eachother...
Debates about usage of the term bukkits raged after Russ first used it. You can talk about buckets of players or buckets of matches. I couldnt give crap how we refer to it, but the current system of having all players go in the same Clan v Is fight has made the system better in terms of getting matches.
I have no interest in making the mode a complete mush of whatever v whatever. What you are describing sounds like QP.
1a) Irrelevant/null. You don't understand why Wolf is lowest. It's simple overpopulated by inactive accounts, no Mercs want to go there, the payouts are bigger. This is due to Phase 3 and totally incorrect active population calculations that PGI should be doing, for an accurate representation of the population - But they are not. Even after they have been told repeatedly how much of a problem it is causing.
1b) Mixed tech won't happen, and shouldn't, so that's also null.
1c) Redundant cause of "B".
2) More factions will just make stuff worse, so that's an even worse idea.
3) We've already seen the result of it. It does not work. Population is too low.
4) Is somewhat fixed by addressing 1a, properly. Adjusting tonnage via population, and you want to add MORE factions? That just makes absolutely no sense.
Overall I believe these ideas are based on some misinterpretation of what is happening in FP right now. Cause what is described and the fixes are not what is happening in the game at all.
Edited by justcallme A S H, 05 February 2018 - 09:01 PM.
Debates about usage of the term bukkits raged after Russ first used it. You can talk about buckets of players or buckets of matches. I couldnt give crap how we refer to it, but the current system of having all players go in the same Clan v Is fight has made the system better in terms of getting matches.
I have no interest in making the mode a complete mush of whatever v whatever. What you are describing sounds like QP.
anything that increases drop rate and brings down wait times is what fp needs. there never was a reason for these battles, theres no lore. so long as one team of mechs fights another team of mechs i dont care whats on their banner.
LocationTo Nova or not to Nova. That is the question.
Posted 05 February 2018 - 09:42 PM
Cato Zilks, on 05 February 2018 - 07:51 PM, said:
They did faction v faction events,but they did not write the game in a way to let clan and IS form up together. I believe Russ was asked about this when he talked about merging the bukkits, he said that the game was was written as having just two factions. AFAIK FRR people could not currently form a 12 man with CGB people. I am basing my comments on what can and cant be done on the statements of Russ, who does not code the game. More importantly, the simple IS or Clan line prevents variable weight for each individual faction. Poor little Clan Wolf has been trash for years now but they have to play the same weight as the merc heavy Vipers and Cats.
Not in the same team, no.
However, it might be possible to shift factions around within the larger Clan and IS pools that we have all been bundled into.
Don't really see the point in it, but having the Nova Cats as a Clan faction fight under the IS banner (for example) might actually be possible at the moment.
Depends on what that event thing can actually do.
People will play 20-30 1v1s, realise how bad they are, and give up.
The fact after year 5 Solaris is getting 'resources' put into it while every other area of the game is left behind (bar mechpacks)... Is a sign of lacking direction from management
Edited by justcallme A S H, 06 February 2018 - 01:15 AM.
justcallme A S H, on 05 February 2018 - 08:50 PM, said:
1a) Irrelevant/null. You don't understand why Wolf is lowest. It's simple overpopulated by inactive accounts, no Mercs want to go there, the payouts are bigger. This is due to Phase 3 and totally incorrect active population calculations that PGI should be doing, for an accurate representation of the population - But they are not. Even after they have been told repeatedly how much of a problem it is causing.
1b) Mixed tech won't happen, and shouldn't, so that's also null.
1c) Redundant cause of "B".
2) More factions will just make stuff worse, so that's an even worse idea.
3) We've already seen the result of it. It does not work. Population is too low.
4) Is somewhat fixed by addressing 1a, properly. Adjusting tonnage via population, and you want to add MORE factions? That just makes absolutely no sense.
Overall I believe these ideas are based on some misinterpretation of what is happening in FP right now. Cause what is described and the fixes are not what is happening in the game at all.
1a) Wolf has a very large population that sucks at FP. What is there not to get? A faction like the Vipers is populated by seasoned vets looking to max out a new rewards tree and mercs. Having a faction comprised FW trash have the same drop weight as a group of vets and mercs seems like bad balancing. Let **** players have some extra tons. It can only make your matches better as you have more damage to get paid for and they get to last a bit longer.
1b) re-read my words "(We will see about mixed tech. (and that is a whole separate debate for another day (and with another person)" I don't think mixed tech is at all a needed component in FW. I am saying people can go talk to someone else about that because I don't give a **** about such pipe dreams. What I am talking about is having a faction that uses clantech (CNC) fight on the IS team and having faction that uses IS tech (FRR) fight on the clan team. This is not mixed tech, this is a different alignment of factions. Nova Cats would only use Clan tech, but cue up alongside IS teams.
1c)?
2) No, that makes nothing worse. Nova Cat and Steel Viper did not harm the game. If anything, it showed how bad big factions can be when mercs don't want to go there (and mercs already spent less time in Wolf).
3) What? We have already seen the result of it? Russ decide to have 1 surprise event and have every faction have a side event at once and it didn't work? You don't ******* say. Huh.
See, if I had argued for having every team having their own lane of their choosing as it was in the days before old Long Tom, then you would have me. But, I didn't argue for that. I argued that 1 single side bucket should be going frequently. They should also be scheduled so we can try to draw puggles to these events. These are a recruiting opportunity for faction warfare.
4) Tonnage and number of factions was not the issue in #4. #4, is about increasing the diff between Loyalist and Merc while trying to create a stable population so PGI can apply tonnage changes more readily to individual factions.
I never said my goal was to cut to the heart of all the issues and fix all of Faction Warfare. I picked a few low cost ways in which PGI can make notable improvements. I don't think they want to invest lots of money into FW, but instead of bemoaning that or complaining that everyone will quit anyways, I am looking to find ways that PGI can make the game better on terms they may be willing to meet.
Debates about usage of the term bukkits raged after Russ first used it. You can talk about buckets of players or buckets of matches. I couldnt give crap how we refer to it, but the current system of having all players go in the same Clan v Is fight has made the system better in terms of getting matches.
I have no interest in making the mode a complete mush of whatever v whatever. What you are describing sounds like QP.
1a) Wolf has a very large population that sucks at FP. What is there not to get? A faction like the Vipers is populated by seasoned vets looking to max out a new rewards tree and mercs. Having a faction comprised FW trash have the same drop weight as a group of vets and mercs seems like bad balancing. Let **** players have some extra tons. It can only make your matches better as you have more damage to get paid for and they get to last a bit longer.
No - It - Does - Not.
The fact you don't actually know what is going on is, concerning.
What Wolf has, as the highest population on the Clan side, is a bunch (1,000s) of inactive accounts that are loyalist to Wolf but never play the game and date back years.
New factions like Diamond Shark have no previous loyalist history. No years of players making accounts and going inactive and skewing the numbers. Therefore their account bonuses are always going to be higher based on the way PGI calculates the population (since the dawn of time). And also the reason Mercs will never go there, cause they payouts suck.
Because of these reasons - the actual reality - your suggestions are totally wayward and it shows you lack understanding of the issues within FP. None of the changes are really achievable (They will achieve nothing). Most of them are not going to help either. Good thing PGI won't be listen or implementing anything outta this one.
Edited by justcallme A S H, 06 February 2018 - 01:29 PM.
justcallme A S H, on 06 February 2018 - 01:29 PM, said:
No - It - Does - Not.
The fact you don't actually know what is going on is, concerning.
What Wolf has, as the highest population on the Clan side, is a bunch (1,000s) of inactive accounts that are loyalist to Wolf but never play the game and date back years.
New factions like Diamond Shark have no previous loyalist history. No years of players making accounts and going inactive and skewing the numbers. Therefore their account bonuses are always going to be higher based on the way PGI calculates the population (since the dawn of time). And also the reason Mercs will never go there, cause they payouts suck.
Because of these reasons - the actual reality - your suggestions are totally wayward and it shows you lack understanding of the issues within FP. None of the changes are really achievable (They will achieve nothing). Most of them are not going to help either. Good thing PGI won't be listen or implementing anything outta this one.
SHHHH if his bad suggestion get trough we will be all clan wolf and whaterver worst is loyalist are with 300+ ton to choose mech WHO KNOW MAYBE 400+ ton let bring 4 assault in this totaly balanced suggestion that doesnt make the imbalance over 9000 .
I WANT MY GODDAMIT 4 EBJ DROPDECK SHUTUP AUSSIE AND MAKE THIS BAD IMPLEMENTATION HAPPEND i DONT MIND BEING CLAN WOLF IF THAT THE PRICE I PAY TO BE OP!
justcallme A S H, on 06 February 2018 - 01:29 PM, said:
No - It - Does - Not.
The fact you don't actually know what is going on is, concerning.
What Wolf has, as the highest population on the Clan side, is a bunch (1,000s) of inactive accounts that are loyalist to Wolf but never play the game and date back years.
New factions like Diamond Shark have no previous loyalist history. No years of players making accounts and going inactive and skewing the numbers. Therefore their account bonuses are always going to be higher based on the way PGI calculates the population (since the dawn of time). And also the reason Mercs will never go there, cause they payouts suck.
Because of these reasons - the actual reality - your suggestions are totally wayward and it shows you lack understanding of the issues within FP. None of the changes are really achievable (They will achieve nothing). Most of them are not going to help either. Good thing PGI won't be listen or implementing anything outta this one.
So this is an explanation of why mercs don't go Wolf. Mercs also dont go Davion for similar reasons. I never said Mercs don't go to Wolf because Wolf players suck, I am not failing to understand the underlying reasons for Mercs not going to wolf.
What I did say is that Wolf players by and large suck. Their record speaks for itself.
Giving ****** clan players the same weight decks as good ones seems silly when we easily could change that. (same goes for IS)
Edited by Cato Zilks, 06 February 2018 - 03:50 PM.
justcallme A S H, on 05 February 2018 - 08:50 PM, said:
1b) Mixed tech won't happen, and shouldn't, so that's also null.
********. Mixed tech has already happened according to the precious "lore". Gameplay balances between IS and Clan would reach a new high, although complaints about obsolete platforms would become even more common, which is still a problem worth fixing, but can be done pretty easily by expanding hard points in some cases, and quirking in others.
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