MechaBattler, on 08 February 2018 - 02:32 PM, said:
That's some rich lore right there! We could really use a game with that level of detail.
I think Harebrained Schemes's BattleTech will do a good job in that department. It will be centered more in the Periphery though, so if anything, it will help to flesh-out the life of the often abandoned (by the IS) frontier. That's interesting because it isn't a setting explored in the games.
I also think MechWarrior5:Mercenaries has a good chance of doing this as well, although we don't know much about the story yet (mostly you have adopted a Merc unit, go make money). Maybe we will discover more about it as it gets closer to launch.
Karl Streiger, on 08 February 2018 - 12:49 AM, said:
This means that ComStar must have clensed all memory drives in the 1st successionwar - ok given the fact that BT was science of the 80s - some kilobyte of computer storrage was as big as a garrage - you can imagine that it is simpler to destroy such devices.
I know what you intended to say...
But in the 1970s, (1978 specifically) we already had laser discs.
Storing ~approximately~ 530 megabytes per side of the disc.
We also had convertible laptop computers in 1986 (these were too expensive for practical home use), 1.2 megabyte double sided 5 1/2 inch floppies in 1984, and 720 kb 3 1/2 inch floppies in 1986 (introduced alongside said laptop in fact both the 3 1/2 inch floppy and convertible laptop computer produced by IBM). Floppies started in the early 1970s as well.
Shakey the robot is introduced in the 1970s, the first AI controlled robot.
1967, the first ATM is put into actual use in the UK.
First microprocessor in 1971.
1971... spacewar! and a number of space related games are made for computer-based arcade systems.
Above 1971 computer-based arcade system. This specific system is called "Computer space!" Featured in a JAWS movie, too.
1971 sees the first introduction of email.
1971: Over the air broadcast allows interactive TV; the world's first "Smart TV" systems in the UK, using a small computer connected to a TV.
1972. Pong is released.
Needless to say, we've been rolling in high tech for a while.
Room sized computers kinda stopped in the 1950s, 10-ish years after they began. Though super computers did continue to be room sized for a while afterward (which apparently used tape reels to have gigabytes worth of information...)
So room sized computers with only kilobytes of information in the 1980s? Nah.
Love the Laser Disc! I wish that format was more widespread. Like Technology Connections said, it was a solution in search of a problem that didn't exist at the time.
Metus regem, on 07 February 2018 - 08:41 AM, said:
As others have pointed out, it's not so much lost tech, rather the loss of the ability to manufacture said items and an understanding on how to maintain them.
For me, the whole ClanTech advance doesn't fit right, they hulled up, traveled to a set of worlds, started to rebuild, fell apart again, left again, moved to more new planets, set up again and some how managed to make everything that much better technologically speaking in under 300 years? I don't buy that...
It actually makes more sense if you realize that unlike the Inner Sphere, the Clans didn't have Comstar deliberately sabotaging or instigating tech destruction left and right.
That's why the Helm Core was almost destroyed along with the Grey Death Legion. They were willing to stop at nothing to prevent technical recovery and encourage the rest of the Inner Sphere to slide back into primitive tech or worse, leaving them the only ones able to build and use League-era tech.
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I mean look at the Timber Wolf, they went from SLDF era Endo S, FF, wepons and XL engines to Clan Spec Endo S, FF and XL engines, weapons, design, testing, combat testing and production in under 200 years since they left the IS, that is complete BS, it's not possible really... /shrug
They also left with piles of cutting-edge developmental data and prototypes that Kerensky took along, lest they be found and used. The Star League was a engineering and technical powerhouse, driven to constantly innovate to keep ahead of the House armies and their enemies. They cool down a bit after the 3050s, but new and original gear is already showing up again in no time (ATMs, Protomechs, and so on).
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As I've gotten older I feel that the Clans should've been pushing IS Civil War era tech, with derivative Omnimech versions SLDF designs...having tested such an alternate history with my group, we found it made the 3050 invasion much more balanced.
Originally, that was exactly the plan. Then FASA made the worst decision in the history of the game and turned the Clans into a bunch of untested min-maxing tech, and the game has suffered ever since.
Brain Cancer, on 23 February 2018 - 01:28 PM, said:
They also left with piles of cutting-edge developmental data and prototypes that Kerensky took along, lest they be found and used. The Star League was a engineering and technical powerhouse, driven to constantly innovate to keep ahead of the House armies and their enemies. They cool down a bit after the 3050s, but new and original gear is already showing up again in no time (ATMs, Protomechs, and so on).
Originally, that was exactly the plan. Then FASA made the worst decision in the history of the game and turned the Clans into a bunch of untested min-maxing tech, and the game has suffered ever since.
One of the things I like about the more recent portrayals of Clan tech in various media is that Clan tech gets their improved stats in part by making design compromises that Inner Sphere designers just refuse to do. Lasers that burn longer, missile launchers that stream fire instead of volley fire, etc etc etc. And outside gameplay, Clan tech could just plain have a shorter "shelf life" as it were which is conveniently hidden by their life fire Trial system which destroys gear in job lots, but becomes very noticeable to Inner Sphere bean counters trying to stockpile weapons and equipment.
This is the sort of setting detail is easily hidden by TT's abstract stat system which boils a multitude of factors down to just a few numbers. But those factors can easily explain why even 50 - even a hundred - years after the initial Clan Invasion, the Inner Sphere still hasn't converted entirely to Clan tech. Inner Sphere tech may be inferior to Clan tech on the tactical battlefield, but have advantages at the strategic and logistical level, and strategy and logistics usually trump tactics in terms of importance to a war. A REAL war; the Clan Trial system makes tactics paramount and generally fails to teach warriors anything about strategy and logistics.
Well on the origenal topic one of the things that comes to mind are every ac class but 5.
MeiSooHaityu, on 15 February 2018 - 04:12 AM, said:
Love the Laser Disc! I wish that format was more widespread. Like Technology Connections said, it was a solution in search of a problem that didn't exist at the time.
I'll argue that to an extent when laser discs came out they where pretty close to the only option for home movie viewing (ether that or own A projecter) and had A good fallowing till dvd launched do to haveing the highest quality of available formats or the day.
One of the things I like about the more recent portrayals of Clan tech in various media is that Clan tech gets their improved stats in part by making design compromises that Inner Sphere designers just refuse to do. Lasers that burn longer, missile launchers that stream fire instead of volley fire, etc etc etc. And outside gameplay, Clan tech could just plain have a shorter "shelf life" as it were which is conveniently hidden by their life fire Trial system which destroys gear in job lots, but becomes very noticeable to Inner Sphere bean counters trying to stockpile weapons and equipment.
This is the sort of setting detail is easily hidden by TT's abstract stat system which boils a multitude of factors down to just a few numbers. But those factors can easily explain why even 50 - even a hundred - years after the initial Clan Invasion, the Inner Sphere still hasn't converted entirely to Clan tech. Inner Sphere tech may be inferior to Clan tech on the tactical battlefield, but have advantages at the strategic and logistical level, and strategy and logistics usually trump tactics in terms of importance to a war. A REAL war; the Clan Trial system makes tactics paramount and generally fails to teach warriors anything about strategy and logistics.
Stream fire's always been depicted as the norm, but as we well know, Clan and IS LRM and SRM ranges are identical, as are their damages.
Streaks are the exception, their system seems rather improved. But both sides can easily double the range using AToW's sniper skill (which is a watered down version of Battletechnology's "Sniper" action, but admittedly anyone could use BattleTechnology's sniper action but only someone whom unlocked AToW's sniper skill can use it; but then it's passive and it literally doubles the accurate range of all weapons).
Now I don't know about shelf life, after all many of their Battlemechs are pretty old, no longer manufactured just repaired and maintained, used time and time again to let the aging die in battle. Though one could debate as to exactly what that means.
What I do know for sure are the following:
Production costs are much higher on Clan equipment, this is due partly to the higher use of Ferro and endo compounds used in their equipment. This also means that manufacturing them requires access to these metals and the facilities necessary (particularly space factories for endo-steel as it cannot be made in atmosphere). Furthermore, despite capturing endo-producing facilities, the endo-steel produced there was too inferior to their own to be used...in anything. As such they had to keep importing it from their own system, culminating in a resupply point that would store it. The novel I'm currently reading (okay started on a few months ago and have since lost) which goes into an elemental's quest to find his spirit animal through visions (yay ghost bears; sure you're not native americans?) and Kurita doing this huge 'make peace with you mercs' display in order to hire them to go on a mission to destroy this resupply base)... kinda goes into how much of a big deal the importing of Clan-grade Endo Steel and Ferro-Fibrous materials is, as evidently its required for everything from their mechs to fixing their weapon systems.
This would explain why not all tech has converted over, even 100 years later. The Clans are still importing their stuff well past 3080 (and I haven't gone much beyond that in terms of lore but there's still the distinction between IS and Clan tech in 3150 mechs..) Just imagine, you capture the Clan tech, but even with Clan Technicians the materials you can fix it with...is just inferior. Can't make the right metal alloys to keep the size and consistency right so if you did effect repairs you'd get what looks like blister bubbles and warts due to the size difference of materials. After all endo steel is double thick for the IS as it is for the Clans.
Omnipods (not arms and legs or torso sections but the weapons themselves) are specialized, requiring the manufacture of specific shapes and designs that are incompatible with others, and have set places that they can actually be used. As such the common configurations weren't just a convenience, they were a bit of a necessity. One had to be greatly renowned for the right to get systems designed to make a never-before-done configuration of new parts.
The IS has evidence of diving into this long before the Clans ever made their first Omnimech, with the Mercury, the Thorn's right arm, and many others. The issue was you were still limited to what manufacturers were willing to make, which had to be dedicated to just your line of mech, with properietary issues (you own the company that has this, you have manufacturers making stuff for you but you won't share the tech with others so that a universal standard could be made. Even if you were willing to, that would basically put an end to proprietary rights and open the door to counterfeits, stealing, etc., as well as introduce a whole galaxy of problems in the bottom line of money. As such, nothing came of it. Even after, when IS does have Omnimech technology, there's such limits to it that you still had to look to specific manufacturers producing specific equipment, meaning you really never had that freedom. Meanwhile Clan mechs, while not universally compatible, have enough similarities in the earliest Omnimechs that you could swap some equipment between Summoners and Hellbringers, and arm equipment between Hellbringers and Timber Wolves, etc. Kitfox and Adders have similar base equipment including leg actuator designs..
This cross compatibility really goes into the Clan's favor in terms of limited supplies...but while the Clans deal with the issue of limited supplies, the IS...not so much. It isn't like it takes half a year of jumping, recharging, repeating to get the supplies from the home planet to the front line. All the industry is close by and completely compatible with what is on the front line for the IS as their supply and demand requires all the things to be nearby, and many of these Aerotech, Mech and Tank facilities produce the weapons and ammo they need on hand, so they're being deployed close to their manufacturing plants, with supplies being built right there.. Very short supply lines in significant favor of the IS. Supply lines that the even after captured the Clans initially refused to use due to how inferior it was.
Megamek HQ, while it doesn't show exactly how its repair mechanics determine cost of repairs, has a much higher cost of repair for Clan equipment. Changing whether something is Clan or IS in the game files has no effect on this, though changing cost has some effect. Still two UAC/5s with the same set cost, but one with Clan slots and the other with IS slots, the Clan slots version is more expensive to fix for the same number of damaged slots.
What this convoluted thing tells me is that the ratio of slots intact to those damaged matters. 3 slots destroyed no matter what means the equipment is destroyed. But if it is only one slot, its destroyed. Two slots, well once the two slots are gone its destroyed. Four slots, well after 3 slots its destroyed. Clan ER Large Laser is one slot; its hit and its gone. Clan large pulse laser has fewer slots than IS Large Pulse Laser, so once the 2 slot damage is taken the Clan LPL is gone for good and needs replacing while the IS LPL can still be repaired. So if anything, Clan tech is more fragile. Don't know how that translates to shelf life, but fixing the equipment isn't as easy as it is for the IS side in terms of the damage it takes.
The fewer slots is intended to represent compactness and difficulty to hit, but I believe it also represents also fragility. After all, anything less than three slots is destroyed in those few hits.
lostech ...one side not really Firecontrollsystems and Weaponsranges like a Infantrymen...other side navigation over lightyears and build arospacefighters and can flying its without Problems...Spaceflight and Missle guided Systems use the same Base-Techs
Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 08 April 2018 - 08:46 AM.
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MechaBattler, on 08 February 2018 - 02:32 PM, said:
