100 replies to this topic

[Brain Cancer]

Khobai, on 07 February 2018 - 06:55 PM, said:

the problem with reflective armor is that omnimechs cant use it

so you just make omnimechs utter crap then

Omnis are already crap, but that's PGI logic for you since they made sure Battlemechs got all the flexibility. Still, having reflective armor means that everyone else won't be so gung-ho to laserboat, which means the Omni will benefit by association here. Masters of none, sadly though.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 12:17 AM, said:

TTK needs to be slower not faster

Does it?

Slower means more deathballing. That's lame.

Kiran Yagami, on 08 February 2018 - 01:38 PM, said:

What pilot sims would those be? And I don't give a damn about shooters. Mechwarrior is a sim, not a shooter. It should always be more sim like than shooter like. And no, TTK is not fine. It needs to be longer.

No it doesn't. Longer TTK makes the game more about deathballing and less about thinking.

[Khobai]

Quote

Does it?

Slower means more deathballing. That's lame.

8v8 means less deathballing too

why is this game still 12v12

we can have 8v8 with slower TTK

and still have less deathballing than 12v12

Edited by Khobai, 08 February 2018 - 03:34 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 03:33 PM, said:

8v8 means less deathballing too

why is this game still 12v12

we can have 8v8 with slower TTK

and still have less deathballing than 12v12

Kind of neither here nor there? I'm cool with 8v8.

[Khobai]

well im just saying if deathballing is your concern then going back to 8v8 is the easiest way to kick deathballing in the nuts

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 03:36 PM, said:

well im just saying if deathballing is your concern then going back to 8v8 is the easiest way to kick deathballing in the nuts

Deathballing and the lack of thought involved. If you can run around willy nilly and shrug off a bunch of paper cuts then this game stops being interesting to play and just becomes a snooze fest.

If TTK is so high that its hard to play the edge game and try to pick somebody off then all you do is camp in a deathball. Even 8v8 won't save that from happening.

[adamts01]

Khobai, on 08 February 2018 - 03:33 PM, said:

8v8 means less deathballing too

why is this game still 12v12

we can have 8v8 with slower TTK

and still have less deathballing than 12v12

24v24 with properly spaced objectives and tickets means zero deathballing. New 8v8 will never be like old 8v8, as mechs have blended together in to the same boring mess and it'll still be most efficient to run in a blob. Just look at current games when 4 are dead from each team. Tactics don't magically change one bit. Assaults cowering like we constantly see isn't due at all to 12v12, it's due to getting instantly cored by two mediums if they expose themselves for more than a second.

Gas Guzzler, on 08 February 2018 - 04:04 PM, said:

Deathballing and the lack of thought involved. If you can run around willy nilly and shrug off a bunch of paper cuts then this game stops being interesting to play and just becomes a snooze fest.

If TTK is so high that its hard to play the edge game and try to pick somebody off then all you do is camp in a deathball. Even 8v8 won't save that from happening.

Why do people consistently make the ridiculous jump from Assaults getting STs stripped to the core in a single heavy alpha, to mechs walking through fire "willy nilly"? Come on. If TTK were similar to beta we'd still have assaults willing to push and a much more aggressive meta.

[Razorfish]

I am up for anything that nerfs the stupid OP clan laser vomit.

[Yosharian]

Brain Cancer, on 08 February 2018 - 03:23 PM, said:

Omnis are already crap, but that's PGI logic for you since they made sure Battlemechs got all the flexibility. Still, having reflective armor means that everyone else won't be so gung-ho to laserboat, which means the Omni will benefit by association here. Masters of none, sadly though.

Most of my best mechs are omnimechs, so...

not seeing it myself

[TLBFestus]

I'm pretty sure that the reason we will never see "weapons spread" in this game, in any form, is that it vastly increases all the math that the game has to do, and their Creaking, duct tape and spit version of CryEngine would,.......well.......it would start crying.

[Yosharian]

TLBFestus, on 08 February 2018 - 10:59 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure that the reason we will never see "weapons spread" in this game, in any form, is that it vastly increases all the math that the game has to do, and their Creaking, duct tape and spit version of CryEngine would,.......well.......it would start crying.

Exactly, cone of fire will never happen, pointless to even debate it

[PocketYoda]

Khobai, on 07 February 2018 - 06:55 PM, said:

the problem with reflective armor is that omnimechs cant use it

so you just make omnimechs utter crap then

you would either have to unlock the locked equipment on omnimechs or do reflective armor through the skill tree by adding reflective coating as a new skill in the survivability skill tree

You just made me like the idea even more...

[Khobai]

Quote

If TTK is so high that its hard to play the edge game and try to pick somebody off then all you do is camp in a deathball. Even 8v8 won't save that from happening.

I refuse to believe TTK is high when we have light mechs that die in one hit lol. one hit death is as far from high TTK as it gets.

we could go from double to triple armor and we still wouldnt have high TTK. wed have medium TTK.

medium TTK is where the game should be. right now we have low TTK.

Edited by Khobai, 09 February 2018 - 04:04 AM.

[ROSS-128]

Technically even with triple armor, some of the biggest Clan mechs would still be theoretically capable of one-shotting the smallest mechs. Especially from the rear, where they often have single-digit armor to begin with.

But for anything over 20t triple armor would be ridiculous, it would be like we're fighting by throwing rusty spoons at each other. We'd be at 6x above TT values by then. An Atlas would have 324 CT armor, and if you tripled structure too it would have a total of 486 HP just on the center torso. That is basically an entire match's worth of damage for even a decent player.

And then there's the effect it would have on pinpoint vs spread weapons. Besides having to also triple ammo counts to 450-600d/t (otherwise ammo based weapons would run dry before getting a single kill), spread weapons such as missiles would be hit harder because they already kill less efficiently, and that inefficiency is being magnified threefold. A missile boat with triple armor would have to do over 1000 damage to get a single kill, closer to 2000 damage if the target is an assault mech. That is 100 LRM20 volleys.

Murderballing would be the name of the game, because you would still be able to instagib mechs, you'd just need about 6 Clan mechs or 12 IS mechs focusing to do it. Alright, correction: Clans can still instagib mechs, IS loses the ability to do so when their first guy dies, if they even could to begin with since they're dipping into their light lance. And that would make the gulf between Clans and IS huge, because when not focusing DPS in MWO usually is in single-digits. 2-4 is common for lasers. Remember that Atlas? A "high DPS" laser build would need 121 seconds to core it out, if it doesn't spread damage at all. Something on the low end would need 243 seconds.

RACs and low-caliber AC/UACs can get higher of course, but even those top out at around 12-15 DPS. Even the RACs and UACs, due to spin-up and jamming giving them both a lot of downtime in practice. Even max-DPS dakka builds would need about 40 seconds of continuous fire to core out that Atlas, which in MWO is more than enough to overheat even a ballistic build.

That's not "medium" TTK, that's somewhere between "glacial" and "play-by-post".

[Khobai]

Quote

We'd be at 6x above TT values by then.

no it would be 3x above TT value not 6x

triple armor is three times tabletop value

[ROSS-128]

In which case you wouldn't achieve your alleged goal of eliminating one-shot kills on 20t mechs, because that would still be possible with 1.5x current armor.

You also wouldn't have much effect on Clan laser vomit for most mechs, they would still die from about two solid volleys due to the fact that with two 78 damage volleys, the second tends to be mostly overkill on a target that the first volley left barely alive.

1.5x current armor would mostly hurt stuff in the 30-50 damage range, such as Inner Sphere mediums. You would basically be nerfing the Inner Sphere while leaving Clans alone, due to threshold effects.

[JaggedCrane]

Samial, on 07 February 2018 - 04:24 AM, said:

If you fire more than two lasers your mech explodes and takes out a quarter of a mile radius of the game areas including anything nearby you, and you lose 100 000 cbils..

If it also blows up LRM weapons on both teams it'd be perfect

Edited by JaggedCrane, 09 February 2018 - 06:52 AM.

[Kubernetes]

Khobai, on 09 February 2018 - 04:03 AM, said:

I refuse to believe TTK is high when we have light mechs that die in one hit lol.

That’s because they’re frickin light mechs. They’re supposed to die easily when hit.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 09 February 2018 - 04:03 AM, said:

I refuse to believe TTK is high when we have light mechs that die in one hit lol. one hit death is as far from high TTK as it gets.

we could go from double to triple armor and we still wouldnt have high TTK. wed have medium TTK.

medium TTK is where the game should be. right now we have low TTK.

Yet lights are routinely the last mechs alive because if they play smart they are mostly ignored until the end.

I'm not talking about lights though. More talking about heavies and up.

[Snowbluff]

Just FYI, reflective armor is a crap option that just turns MM into even more dice roll.