1125 replies to this topic

[A Dummy]

I pretty much agree with most of everything listed, with just a few things I'd tweak or add. (Incoming long post.)

Clan ER Micro Lasers:
The small damage bump looks nice, but I think I'd prefer a heat buff instead to something like 1.4 heat so they run just a smidgen cooler than ER smalls. (Or if the damage buff was to stay put it to 1.5 heat, heck I'd take them being at 1.6 heat if 1.5 is still too little.)

Clan ER Medium Lasers:
I'd actually like to see their damage lowered to a full 6 instead of 6.5, with the appropriate heat and cooldown buffs to compensate. (Off the top of my head I wanna say it would be 5.3 heat on a 3.75 cooldown at a 1.2 duration, maybe even 1.15 duration?)
That way it further reduces the burst potential without hurting their sustain damage all that much.

Clan ER Large Lasers:
It's probably just a pet peeve of mine, but I don't like how the damage/heat is almost 1/1 on these, I'd prefer if it took at least 10.5 heat, or even 10.2 if that's not too much.

Clan Micro Pulse Lasers:
The cooldown bump looks nice, but again though, I feel like part of the problem with these is they're just too hot, I'd like to see them somewhere around 1.3-1.4 heat per laser. (maybe go 1.35?)
I also feel like they're just a bit too short ranged, putting them at 100 range would be nice but I'd prefer 110 range if possible. (Even if it came at the cost of not giving it the extra bit of CD)

Clan Heavy Small Lasers:
The extra damage bump is nice, but I would personally trade out the extra half a point of damage to instead give it a range of 130 so it doesn't fall behind the other H lasers so much in this regard. (Though I can say that going either way would work fine.)

Clan ER PPC:
I honestly don't like the weird ridgeline this weapon is riding, and it's getting put in this really awkward spot just because of a little extra splash damage that it does inflating the total damage it deals per shot so it keeps getting nerfed more and more around the fact that it technically deals 15 damage per shot.
So to start with, why not just nerf the splash damage down to 1.5 damage, or even just a flat 1 (Heck just remove it altogether so they can actually balance the darn thing properly.) and then buff the heat to 13.5 and the CD back to 4, that way it's not having to be made so much worse just because of some extra insignificant damage it causes.
Although I will say I think part of the problem is that Clan still only has 1 PPC weapon to choose from, and they should probably get something like the Enhanced ERPPC so they get some more options, but that's kind of a whole other discussion entirely. (Clan be looking at IS like "Your Mom lets you hold 5 PPCs?!")

IS/Clan Flamers:
I feel like these things are just silly in their current state, I was pretty disappointed that they weren't even touched at all when PGI did the energy weapon balance patch a few months ago. (Confirmed, PGI doesn't consider Flamers to be a weapon. lol)
Anyway, I'd like it if they did just 0.5 DPS so that way they at least feel like they do something, even if their main purpose is to heat up mechs, just so that way they contribute some kind of extra bit of damage when you're up close, like with MGs or something.

ATMs:
I just don't like where these stand currently, I understand these were made the way they are because ammo switching isn't a thing in this game, but they just feel so all over the place to me.
Since we already have SRMs and LRMs, why not have these just fulfill the role of the Clan MRM and just keep them at that so they don't have to balance around prevent weapon overlap?
To that end I'd like it if the variable damage was removed from ATMs and they just did between 1.8-2 damage per missile with a range of around 480-550 with no blind spot and then give them a proper ammo amount of something between 120-150 per ton.
Instead of it being balanced around them having low ammo because of the possibility of doing 3 damage per hit at short range and then they have a long range trap that does 1 damage but with only 90 missiles so it's a waste.

I don't have as much experience with IS (Filthy Clanner scum of the earth over here.) but I'll still bring up a few things that could be tweaked on their end.

IS ER Medium Lasers:
I have to agree with a friend of mine and say that they could just be a bit cooler than they are, like just somewhere around 4.2-4.3 heat, nothing huge, just enough so they run a little cooler than the ER Larges instead of a little hotter.

Light PPC and Light Gauss:
Different weapons, but the same suggestion for both, let them fire 4 at a time since they do basically half the damage of their regular counterparts, would still just be 20 damage for 4 Light PPCs and 32 damage from 4 Light Gauss so I don't think that would be too much.
Though I guess I could see arguments against firing 4 Light PPCs replacing 2 regular PPCs, so I won't split hairs over that one, if it would require additional adjusts to make it work when it might just be better to leave well enough alone.

IS LBX-20:
I think putting the slot usuge down to 10 would be great, but I don't see PGI going for something like that as they're pretty strict about keeping tonnage and slot usage the same.
As an alternative maybe instead buff the spread down to 0.9, and then either buff the CD a little more down to 3.6 or maybe, and I mean maybe, increase the damage just a bit to 1.1 per shot for a total of 22. (I don't know if this would throw thing out of balance or not though.)

RAC2:
I feel like these need to do just a bit more DPS to compete with the RAC5, as the 2 tons saved usually isn't worth the 40% loss in dps in my opinion.
I'm not sure what exact numbers would be here, but I'd say put RAC2s at around 7.2 to 7.3 damage with the appropriate adjustments to heat and ammo so the Dmg/heat ratio stays the same and the potential damage per ton of ammo stays the same as well.

That's about it for my feedback on the matter and on what's presented, I don't claim to have a deep understanding of all the intricacies in this game and can really only speak from my own personal experience, but I hope at least even half of what I brought up is reasonable and not just me going off my rocker. lol
Again, overall I basically agree with everything posted and I like the look of it, I would just personally make a few extra tweaks here and there but that's it, even if this weapon pass just somehow happened as is with no changes I think it would still be overall for the better than how things are currently.

[Formosa The God]

Mcgral18, on 08 February 2018 - 05:33 PM, said:

Why would that be done when they take fewer slots and weight fewer tons?

Because IS has better cooldown, like most of the weapons they have, there is no real reason to have so many rounds fired for Clan, either bring IS shots up, or Clan shots down, I would be happy with either, unless you are admitting that firing more shots makes it crap?

[Mcgral18]

Formosa The God, on 08 February 2018 - 06:29 PM, said:

Because IS has better cooldown, like most of the weapons they have, there is no real reason to have so many rounds fired for Clan, either bring IS shots up, or Clan shots down, I would be happy with either, unless you are admitting that firing more shots makes it crap?

Makes it less good, as it should be
Clams can't have absolutely everything be superior

Cooldown is a completely marginal thing here, a tenth of a second.
The cost of saving a few tons (and having a better engine, upgrades, heatsinks, etc...)

[Cy Mitchell]

Mcgral18, on 08 February 2018 - 05:26 PM, said:

https://mwomercs.com...gs-ahoy-pgiplz/
Been there, done that
Good luck, I don't have any hope left

I was wondering why you were not at the forefront of this discussion.

[Gas Guzzler]

Rampage, on 08 February 2018 - 05:24 PM, said:

We should not be in the era of 70-94 damage Alpha strikes. We certainly should not be bringing other weapons up to that damage threshold. We should be dealing with reducing that damage to acceptable levels where other weapons can compete adequately. Damage needs to be reduced on the lasers that are at the core of those builds and coolshots need to be removed so they builds have to take heat into account again.

Eh I'm okay with the large alphas. Slow clumsy assaults (Dire) need that kind of thing to remain relevant.

2 ER PPC Gauss builds should come back. It's 35 damage, it's fine.

[Navid A1]

I want some honest answers here.

are Gauss + 2 PPC builds really a problem?
35 pinpoint. Too hot on clan mechs, too heavy (and hot) on IS mechs


are 2 Gauss + PPC builds a problem?
40 pinpoint, Too heavy on most chassis
(night gyr got shafted with mobility nerfs, remember)

Edited by Navid A1, 08 February 2018 - 07:10 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 February 2018 - 06:51 PM, said:

Eh I'm okay with the large alphas. Slow clumsy assaults (Dire) need that kind of thing to remain relevant.

2 ER PPC Gauss builds should come back. It's 35 damage, it's fine.

well the DWF needs Agility or Armor or both, but thats another Discussion,
with the proposed damage decreased(6 or 6.5 for C-ERML im fine with) gives you a Alpha of 70-73,
yes thats alot, but im with Gass here its not too much when you consider you cant just keep firing that,
most mechs thats 1st shot 5secs 2nd shot cool for 10-15 seconds, thats Brawl kills High Alpha Laser Boating,

[Mcgral18]

Rampage, on 08 February 2018 - 06:48 PM, said:

I was wondering why you were not at the forefront of this discussion.

Not a big Reddit participant, and have certainly lost my old ambition


It'll be nice if they succeed, but I'm fine not being a part of it.

[naterist]

Navid A1, on 08 February 2018 - 07:09 PM, said:

I want some honest answers here.

are Gauss + 2 PPC builds really a problem?
35 pinpoint. Too hot on clan mechs, too heavy (and hot) on IS mechs


are 2 Gauss + PPC builds a problem?
40 pinpoint, Too heavy on most chassis
(night gyr got shafted with mobility nerfs, remember)

i would leave it as is, except i would unlink light ppcs and light gausses, since they are pinpoint, but they are much worse than gauss and ppcs. the dual heavy gauss only isnt too much because of its dropoff, which should probably be set at just 200 meters, instead of a straight revert to 180.

Edited by naterist, 08 February 2018 - 07:13 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

I think snub-nose needs to be cooler than standard PPCs, cause they're close-range brawl weapons, maybe 7. The AC20 at 6 heat and 20 damage, that means 2x SNPPC would make 20 damage for 14 heat.

[Cy Mitchell]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 February 2018 - 06:51 PM, said:

Eh I'm okay with the large alphas. Slow clumsy assaults (Dire) need that kind of thing to remain relevant.

2 ER PPC Gauss builds should come back. It's 35 damage, it's fine.

No, it is not OK to have Alphas that large. Besides it is not large clumsy Assaults delivering that punch. It is Mechs like the Hellbringer, Timberwolf, Ebon Jaguar, Linebacker, Hunchback IIC, Huntsman and Stormcrow dealing that kind of damage. those are certainly not clumsy or ponderous Mechs.

It is the heavy lasers and double enhanced coolshots that allow builds that should not work due to heat issues to become viable.

This is what is killing build diversity, not the Ghost Heat limit on Gauss and PPCs.

I was against Alpha Warrior Online when the Alphas were in the 60 damage range. I hate where the game is at now due to Clan Laser Vomit and Clan Gauss Vomit. And I am a Clan only player.

Edited by Rampage, 08 February 2018 - 07:16 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Andi Nagasia, on 08 February 2018 - 07:09 PM, said:

well the DWF needs Agility or Armor or both, but thats another Discussion,
with the proposed damage decreased(6 or 6.5 for C-ERML im fine with) gives you a Alpha of 70-73,
yes thats alot, but im with Gass here its not too much when you consider you cant just keep firing that,
most mechs thats 1st shot 5secs 2nd shot cool for 10-15 seconds, thats Brawl kills High Alpha Laser Boating,

Dire alpha goes down to 91 damage.. Deathstrike to 77, MCIi-1 to 79

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 08 February 2018 - 07:14 PM.

[Tahawus]

I think what you've got there is a significant improvement pretty much across the board, and would be a spectacular candidate for a week in the PTS. I could quibble on some items, but testing will probably reveal more important shortcomings than theory crafting.

And, it does it without requiring new mechanics.

I would like to suggest two possible new mechanics, for consideration down the line.

UACs, a single UAC has a negligible, but non-zero jam chance on the first double tap. each UAC that would currently be on cooldown increases that jam chance. This should be additive, if a single UAC has fired twice during what would have been the cooldown that is also additive to the jam chance.

Hypothetically, a UAC has a cooldown of 2 seconds, and a base jamchance for a double tap of 5%, first "extra round" has a 5% jam chance, second has 10%, a third would have 15% if it's within the 2 second cooldown.

If there were 4 of the same UAC on the mech fired in a single group, the first set of extra rounds would have a 20% jam chance each, assuming none jammed, the second would have a 40% each, and so on.

This would provide a significant benefit to builds that don't boat compensating for the inherent benefits of boating UACs.


Second Mechanic: Gauss Rifles...

Drop the charge mechanic, and drop all ghost heat on gauss rifles. Each gauss rifle on recharge past the first one increases the cooldown on all other weapons on the mech by a factor of the number of gauss rifles on cooldown. i.e. multiply the cooldown times by k/[(1 + (n-m1)) + 1 + (n-m2))] where n is the number of gauss rifles. k = a tuning constant, m(1,2,3..) = a factor supporting different critical numbers by gauss rifle type.

[Cy Mitchell]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 February 2018 - 07:14 PM, said:

Dire alpha goes down to 91 damage.. Deathstrike to 77, MCIi-1 to 79

Which is still crazy amounts of damage. The Heavy lasers need to take a bigger hit as far as damage.

[Andi Nagasia]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 February 2018 - 07:14 PM, said:

Dire alpha goes down to 91 damage.. Deathstrike to 77, MCIi-1 to 79

well i ment the pure 6ERML +2HLL builds but ya, im ok with all Clan Lasers getting -1Damage,
"id actually prefer it to more Nerfs in other areas, -6 to -8 damage to a 70-90apha isnt too bad,

[Sereglach]

To add my two cents, since I noticed that Flamers aren't touched in the letter or spreadsheet, they need a fundamental fix that ditches the convoluted mechanics and take them to fixed flat values. We were promised a fundamental overhaul of the weapon in 2013, and received some XML tuning in 2016 instead. That broke the weapon in a horribly OP fashion (Flamergeddon, as it was called) and required an emergency bandaid fix . . . that left the weapon decimated and broken, but no longer a game-breaking problem. The weapon has languished ever since and is in desperate need of help. I was sorely disappointed in PGI when the weapon got no attention during the "energy balance overhaul".

Currently we have .1 DPS (joke . . . sick, sick joke) and 4.5 Heat DPS (with exponential scaling, that no amount of heat sinks can defend against), combined with a convoluted 4.5 second shooting window but with exponential heat generation after that fact (which no amount of heat sinks can control). This is then thrown on a 4.5 second (which Russ said was the absolute MINIMUM to defeat macros and yet we got skill tree nodes to shorten this window?) window before the weapon starts to "cool down". Unless you send your own mech spiraling into a shutdown state uncontrollably, by the time your 4.5 second window to "cool down" ends + the 4.5 seconds it takes to cool down to "heat neutral" your opponent has cooled off any heat you put upon it. The weapon currently languishes in a flat out busted state, from all angles.

Change Flamers to a fixed and flat 0.8 (pre 0.1 change) to 1.0 (preferred, it at least competes with MG's that have half the weight and internal crit-shredding) DPS, 1.5 to 2.0 Heat DPS, and 1.0 HPS Generation.

Not only does that balance the weapon, but by removing the mechanics that gave way to the macro issue and "Flamergeddon" in the first place, it prevents it from being abused going forward. Also, without exponential scaling on either the Heat DPS or HPS Generation, small nudges in balance and tuning can occur that don't send the weapon into fits of broken or OP status. The weapon should be balanced not unlike a machine gun: One Flamer becomes annoying, Two Flamers become an inconvenient opponent, and 3-4+ become dangerous. They could even "Ghost Heat" them at 6 if they wanted to prevent truly excessive boating.

Please, I'd literally beg that y'all add a change like this to your documents if I could. It's my favorite weapon in Battletech and it's always been depressing that it's never really received the balancing and attention it deserves. I'd love for it to be included in a community push for game balance as a whole.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

[Gas Guzzler]

Navid A1, on 08 February 2018 - 07:09 PM, said:

I want some honest answers here.

are Gauss + 2 PPC builds really a problem?
35 pinpoint. Too hot on clan mechs, too heavy (and hot) on IS mechs


are 2 Gauss + PPC builds a problem?
40 pinpoint, Too heavy on most chassis
(night gyr got shafted with mobility nerfs, remember)

Gauss + 2 PPC is definitely not a problem, at all.

There seems to be contention around 2 Gauss 1 PPC builds, and for the reasons you state I don't really consider it an issue.

[Navid A1]

naterist, on 08 February 2018 - 07:12 PM, said:

Navid A1, on 08 February 2018 - 07:09 PM, said:

I want some honest answers here.

are Gauss + 2 PPC builds really a problem?
35 pinpoint. Too hot on clan mechs, too heavy (and hot) on IS mechs


are 2 Gauss + PPC builds a problem?
40 pinpoint, Too heavy on most chassis
(night gyr got shafted with mobility nerfs, remember)

i would leave it as is.

Why?

is 35 damage pinpoint too large every 5 seconds?

[Khobai]

Quote

Gauss + 2 PPC is definitely not a problem, at all.

The reason a lot of people are against Gauss + 2 PPC is because you can headshot with it.

Are long range headshots really something we want in the game?

long range PPFLD should be limited to 30 damage IMO.

the ability to headshot needs to be limited to short range.

Edited by Khobai, 08 February 2018 - 08:11 PM.

[Navid A1]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 February 2018 - 08:04 PM, said:

Gauss + 2 PPC is definitely not a problem, at all.

There seems to be contention around 2 Gauss 1 PPC builds, and for the reasons you state I don't really consider it an issue.

I'm seeing people freaking out about Gauss + 2PPC 35 damage pinpoint.... let alone 2Gauss + PPC (which is fine for the weight it requires)