1125 replies to this topic

[Verilligo]

Khobai, on 09 February 2018 - 12:37 PM, said:

that particular weapon combo has repeatedly been a problem throughout the games history and has been nerfed multiple times. until PGI finally just said f it and ghost heated it so they wouldnt have to deal with it anymore.

gauss/ppc has been targeted for nerfs on at least 6 different occasions that I can remember. Im sure theres been more... and if its brought back it will just end up getting nerfed again like it always does. For what? to make everyone suffer through another PPFLD sniping meta again? Why?

it makes far more sense to focus on balancing the things everyone agrees would make the game more fun.

I dunno, I lived through at least a short time period where Gauss/PPC was a thing and I don't seem to recall it being unbeatable. Or even all that much of a cause for grief. It was just another weapon combo that was out on the field. Certainly nothing compared to the true poptart cancer that was in MW4.

I don't even necessarily disagree with your basic premise that balancing other things first is a good idea. But you seem bizarrely terrified of one specific combination that really just shouldn't be a problem for you and I say that as a player that prefers to brawl.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Agree to most changes, so I'll say about the things I don't like:

-ATMs are not overpowered against lights and mediums. Lights and mediums find it easiest to come under the minimum range/run for cover/back up to point when the damage is lower/ break lock against bigger ATM boats. See no issue here.

-Buffs to clan autocannons remove all the drawbacks they have against IS autocannons, while leaving all the advantages they have against IS autocannons. That's a no-no. UACs are not even i a bad spot right now, it's just that the vomit meta trumps everything. Reign in the vomit and the cannons will be buffed in this way, enough IMHO.

[Bud Crue]

Khobai, on 09 February 2018 - 12:37 PM, said:

that particular weapon combo has repeatedly been a problem throughout the games history and has been nerfed multiple times. until PGI finally just said f it and ghost heated it so they wouldnt have to deal with it anymore.

I swear to mechageezus that I never even noticed gauss/ppc until the arival of the Kodiak and the Night Gyr (I started playing after they killed jump jets). Gauss/PPC combo is just not a big deal on most of the mechs that can run it anymore. Let it return and then selectively nerf specific variants should they prove to be over performing with it. I just don't see that being an unreasonable solution.

[YueFei]

Get it through your heads: making more of the weapons viable is a good thing across all levels of play.

It creates more variety at the higher levels of play, and at the lower levels of play, McMechN00b's weapon choices are more likely to be effective if the majority of weapons are effective. McMechN00b is more likely to stick around and play the game because he won't be gimped by both a lack of experience and subpar weapon choices. Why should McMechN00b be gimped simply because he thinks AC20's seem really cool, picks it at random and buys it with his hard-earned Spacebucks, only to find the softball-speed underwhelming as he gets his *** handed to him over and over again while struggling to lead targets with his AC20? Why should McMechN00b find himself unable to compete just because he picked RACs to stick on his mech on a whim, only to find that it just doesn't work all that well?

How often do you see a Streamer look at a loadout and say "yeah, that's not gonna be dangerous to me"? And then confidently engage that opponent and wreck them.

It happens all too often, because so many of the weapons in this game (like many of the mechs in this game) are simply underperforming.

Making more weapons (and mechs) viable is healthy for the game and for all players at all levels of all play styles. If anything, it will help retain players who prefer play styles which are currently gimped due to borked weapon and mech balance, and retain new players whose random choice of mech and weapon are more likely to be useful and a Credit To The Team.

[Tlords]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 February 2018 - 09:21 PM, said:

Sounds like a pretty dumb game.

Guzzler. I don't understand your comment about my recommendation of linking medium lasers with their large laser brothers for ghost hear.

One of the problems with laser vomit is firing all your lasers at once. You fire then duck behind cover, with minimal exposure. It's too easy.

It's a much harder game when you have to space out 2 HLL and 4 ERML. Instead of 60 damage with one trigger pull, you need to pull the trigger twice to achieve the same effect, with spacing between the shots.

I for one what more of a challenge.

[naterist]

Remove the ability for lrm boats to get non line of sight locks for lrms unless tag/narq are used.

It really just gets people out of that "lurm from behind a wall 700meters away from the frontline" mentality, without effecting the upper teirs. Also ends the nonstop lurmaggedon happening in teir 5.

[Tlords]

Rampage, on 09 February 2018 - 10:59 AM, said:

Ah OK, I see. It is the old "The KDK-3 is OP, buff everything up to its level!" or the "The Deathstrike is OP, we need to buff everything up to compete!" justification. Yeah, I am out.

Sanity reigns. Address the alpha potential. It toned back the KDK-3, 4 ultra AC-10 build. Linking Gauss and lasers would do this. Heck, let's limit the number of medium lasers your can fire with Large lasers.

Pressing one button dumping 60+ points of laser, hit-scan damage in one salvo with no ghost heat is crazy. Adding 30 pts of Gauss damage on top of this makes it only worse.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Tlords, on 09 February 2018 - 02:31 PM, said:

Sanity reigns. Address the alpha potential. It toned back the KDK-3, 4 ultra AC-10 build. Linking Gauss and lasers would do this. Heck, let's limit the number of medium lasers your can fire with Large lasers.

Pressing one button dumping 60+ points of laser, hit-scan damage in one salvo with no ghost heat is crazy. Adding 30 pts of Gauss damage on top of this makes it only worse.

You may want to check a nearby thread about laser balancing.

The idea proposed there is simple. Everyone gets a checkbox. You check it and now you're getting matched into special matches with like-minded players and under special snowflake rules:
- no more than two medium lasers can be fired at once
- armor is quadrupled

Support it and you could enjoy the proper experience without those horrible alphas.

[dario03]

Tiewolf, on 09 February 2018 - 11:38 AM, said:

No you can't choose to become a good player. There is something like live, jobs, kids, a wife, the house and so on. If everybody could invest the time in this game like the top players you might be right if I discount disabilities or the available equipment. Becoming good or not is in the most cases not a choice at all! This is one of the very weak/false arguments that is only used by top players to justify their ways. I assume you have another T1 account? Don't you?

Plenty of top players have all that stuff too. Also this game isn't super execution or twitch intensive so you don't need to play it non stop to be good. A little bit of time investment can go far in this game. And if somebody doesn't have even a little bit of time to invest then it makes sense for them to just not be as good as some other players. A better player ranking system and match maker is the answer for that. Stopping styles of game play that can be countered is not.

[Andi Nagasia]

hey @Navid A1

what do you think of my missile Proposal,
Double LRM Velocity, Double AMS Damage, Doubled All non LRM Missile Health?
it makes LRMs more reliable without changing the Dynamic between AMS and Missiles,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 09 February 2018 - 03:38 PM.

[Zigmund Freud]

Andi Nagasia, on 09 February 2018 - 03:29 PM, said:

hey @Navid A1

what do you think of the missile Proposal,
Double LRM Velocity, Double AMS Damage, Doubled All non LRM Missile Health?
it makes LRMs more reliable without changing the Dynamic between AMS and Missiles,

This. It buffs LRMs in higher tiers, where people rarely use AMS, and nerf LRMs in tier5, where people who can't into 1000 hard counters complain about "lurmagedon". Good idea.
Also, I think we should increase IS ammo/ton, since clams have twice lighter launchers. This way IS have opportunity to bring more tubes or fire more with new heat buffs, and clan 80-tubes boats have to reduce the number of launchers or pick their shots more carefully. Not sure about the numbers, but 20%ish would be a place to start.
edit:
also, bring back 1000m range, it's LONG range missiles after all, that are useless in close combat. Give it back the range, extra 100m of range never were a problem.

Edited by Zigmund Freud, 09 February 2018 - 03:38 PM.

[tokumboh]

meteorol, on 09 February 2018 - 05:01 AM, said:

Well, i guess 35 ppd of 2 ppc/ 1 gauss shouldn't be a problem then?

Oh wait, according to people who are solely interested in keeping the skill ceiling as low as possible it is.

Nothing stops you taking 2PPC+Gauss you just take a heat penalty in the same way that nothing stops you taking anything else. in the game indeed 2PPC+2GRs is not a problem but it does mean again a heat penalty before the penalty you could get as many as 3 alphas on a NGR-PRIME. however a dual AC20 also have a heat spike. I am not saying that either is good or bad but when you are loading damage like that it is hard to push on many maps that we now have. where the engagements are at longer ranges and the maps themselves are bigger and also seem to have less cover when trying to cross the chasm to meet for a brawl. essentially th game becomes a trading at range early game most of the time if you look at what happens even in competitive matches much of what we see is trading at range.

the argument about setting a skill ceiling is just completely invalid. Nothing has been taken away from you you can still do pin point damage at range all that changes is that you have to manage your heat. If you cannot do that then you have a skill ceiling since that is part of the game. Or am I missing something here?

[The6thMessenger]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 February 2018 - 08:30 AM, said:

So aside from Khobai, do we at least all agree that 2 PPC Gauss combos can come back?

I'm partially okay. But I'd rather have the heat-penalty lowered than simply letting the 3-weapon combo free of ghost-heat.

Navid A1, on 09 February 2018 - 09:46 AM, said:

Also, our agenda is making every play-style viable
Your's is to keep some dead!

So where's the RAC changes for reliability? I mean we get that the UAC needs to be more reliable and all. But it's that stare time that dooms the RAC, and having been balanced around redlining it just never served it well.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 09 February 2018 - 03:49 PM.

[Bilbo999]

Andi Nagasia, on 09 February 2018 - 03:29 PM, said:

hey @Navid A1

what do you think of my missile Proposal(Making LRMs more Reliable)
Double LRM Velocity, Double AMS Damage, Doubled All non LRM Missile Health?
it makes LRMs more reliable without changing the Dynamic between AMS and Missiles,

Doubling LRM velocity will bring on a LRMpocalypse the likes of which hasn't been seen since half an Atlas' dome was the cockpit. Doesn't matter what you do with AMS damage.

[Navid A1]

The6thMessenger, on 09 February 2018 - 03:45 PM, said:

So where's the RAC changes for reliability? I mean we get that the UAC needs to be more reliable and all. But it's that stare time that dooms the RAC, and having been balanced around redlining it just never served it well.

Being considered in our own discussions.
maybe some more kick to their velocities

Andi Nagasia, on 09 February 2018 - 03:29 PM, said:

hey @Navid A1

what do you think of my missile Proposal,
Double LRM Velocity, Double AMS Damage, Doubled All non LRM Missile Health?
it makes LRMs more reliable without changing the Dynamic between AMS and Missiles,

we had some ideas about lurms... will be doing a revisit... thx for that input

[The6thMessenger]

Navid A1, on 09 February 2018 - 04:16 PM, said:

Being considered in our own discussions.
maybe some more kick to their velocities

That's it? Just extra velocity? Well, yeah sure, I'd go for 2000 RAC2 velocity, and 1650 RAC5 velocity.

What about the RAC2 though? Isn't that it's just so god damn anemic? Even pushing over the redline only yields low DPS overall.

https://www.reddit.c...yaynay/dtzhtsw/

The RAC needs a lot of changes to be less than a fun joke in higher play. And the problem is that it's balanced around the chance of doing very high damage -- chance, leaving responsible-use terrible, and the stare down that comes with it. What Laser Vomit, Gauss Vomit, and Gauss-PPC have in common is that they have short exposure time to do their damage. The UACs have less of this problem, they can just double-tap and fade -- but they're getting the more reliable treatment.

Would just the higher velocity make the RACs viable at comp play? Cause with their stare-down issue, I can already see a problem.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 09 February 2018 - 04:33 PM.

[Navid A1]

The6thMessenger, on 09 February 2018 - 04:31 PM, said:

That's it? Just extra velocity? Well, yeah sure, I'd go for 2000 RAC2 velocity, and 1650 RAC5 velocity.

What about the RAC2 though? Isn't that it's just so god damn anemic? Even pushing over the redline only yields low DPS overall.

https://www.reddit.c...yaynay/dtzhtsw/

The RAC needs a lot of changes to be less than a fun joke in higher play. And the problem is that it's balanced around the chance of doing very high damage -- chance, leaving responsible-use terrible, and the stare down that comes with it. What Laser Vomit, Gauss Vomit, and Gauss-PPC have in common is that they have short exposure time to do their damage. The UACs have less of this problem, they can just double-tap and fade -- but they're getting the more reliable treatment.

Would just the higher velocity make the RACs viable at comp play? Cause with their stare-down issue, I can already see a problem.

What is your suggestion?

[The6thMessenger]

Navid A1, on 09 February 2018 - 04:42 PM, said:

What is your suggestion?

• Redline Jam-Chance from 3.7% to 100%
  
• Jam Duration from 10s to 4.5s
  
• Jam Dissipation from 9.5s to 4.5s
  
• Shooting time from 6s to 5.75s
  
• RAC2 Velocity to 2000
  
• RAC5 Velocity to 1650
  
• RAC5 Spin-Up time from 1.00s to 0.75s
  
• RAC2 Damage from 0.8 to 1.0
  
• RAC2 Heat/Sec to 2.4
  
• RAC5 Heat/Sec to 3.6
  
• RAC2 Ammo/Ton 300
  
• RAC5 Ammo/Ton 200

At that current suggestion, the RAC2 is balanced to have same upfront DPS at GH limit with the GH limit of the RAC5. The RAC5 would do fixed 55.5 damage at a single continuous use, and does 5.4146 DPS effectively. The RAC2 would do fixed 37 damage at a single continuous use, and does 3.609756 DPS effectively.

That's a start. And with that current mechanic, it has less erratic output that would make it easier to fit in the power curve.

Maybe we can increase the upfront DPS if it proves to still be not good to compete -- bump the ROF to 8 shots/sec too. Or if the RAC5 proves to have too much DPS, we can reduce it. At it's current state, maybe we need to increase the weapon's DPS to compensate with lasers' damage/tick. The C-HLL has around 11.6129 Damage/tick, perhaps it will do well for the RAC5 to do 12 upfront DPS, and the RAC2 at 8 DPS.

• Rate of Fire to 8.00 shot/sec

The RAC5 would do fixed 61.5 damage at a single continuous use, and does 6 DPS effectively. The RAC2 would do fixed 41 damage at a single continuous use, and does 4 DPS effectively. It's all spread damage anyways, as well as the lasers can be used en-masse to boost the damage/tick.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 09 February 2018 - 05:17 PM.

[HammerMaster]

LRM needs 100% overhaul.
Change lock on mechanic ( no free c3) punishes lazy lurming
Increase velocity / lower spread in LOS rewards good LRM support
MAKE VIABLE IN ALL TIERS!

Entertain no Gauss charge.
Eg. My Cataphract 1x doesn't need to be PPC/Gauss punished if I run 1! Gauss and 5mlas

Edited by HammerMaster, 09 February 2018 - 05:24 PM.

[Navid A1]

The6thMessenger, on 09 February 2018 - 05:02 PM, said:

• Redline Jam-Chance from 3.7% to 100%
  
• Jam Duration from 10s to 4.5s
  
• Jam Dissipation from 9.5s to 4.5s
  
• Shooting time from 6s to 5.75s
  
• RAC2 Velocity to 2000
  
• RAC5 Velocity to 1650
  
• RAC5 Spin-Up time from 1.00s to 0.75s
  
• RAC2 Damage from 0.8 to 1.0
  
• RAC2 Heat/Sec to 2.4
  
• RAC5 Heat/Sec to 3.6
  
• RAC2 Ammo/Ton 300
  
• RAC5 Ammo/Ton 200

At that current suggestion, the RAC2 is balanced to have same upfront DPS at GH limit with the GH limit of the RAC5. The RAC5 would do fixed 55.5 damage at a single continuous use, and does 5.4146 DPS effectively. The RAC2 would do fixed 37 damage at a single continuous use, and does 3.609756 DPS effectively.


That's a start. And with that current mechanic, it has less erratic output that would make it easier to fit in the power curve.

Maybe we can increase the upfront DPS if it proves to still be not good to compete -- bump the ROF to 8 shots/sec too. Or if the RAC5 proves to have too much DPS, we can reduce it. At it's current state, maybe we need to increase the weapon's DPS to compensate with lasers' damage/tick. The C-HLL has around 11.6129 Damage/tick, perhaps it will do well for the RAC5 to do 12 upfront DPS, and the RAC2 at 8 DPS.

• Rate of Fire to 8.00 shot/sec

The RAC5 would do fixed 61.5 damage at a single continuous use, and does 6 DPS effectively. The RAC2 would do fixed 41 damage at a single continuous use, and does 4 DPS effectively. It's all spread damage anyways, as well as the lasers can be used en-masse to boost the damage/tick.

will go through those numbers.
i too like to see them played