1125 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Id be okay with something like this:

LPPC: 6 damage, 5 heat, 3.5 cooldown (1.71 dps), 540m/1080m
PPC: 10 damage, 9 heat, 4.0 cooldown (2.5 dps), 540m/1080m
HPPC: 15 damage, 14 heat, 5.0 cooldown (3.0 dps), 540m/1080m
ERPPC: 10 damage, 13 heat, 4.5 cooldown (2.22 dps), 810m/1620m
SNPPC: 11 damage, 8.5 heat, 3.5 cooldown (3.14 dps), 270m/540m (weighs 1 ton and 1 crit less too)

Get rid of zero damage deadzones on LPPC, PPC, and HPPC. replace with damage dropoff if needed.

Turn all IS DHS into true doubles

Edited by Khobai, 23 February 2018 - 09:17 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

BreakinStuff, on 23 February 2018 - 08:44 PM, said:

I dunno if this has been addressed, but the only PPC that can achieve the 45-damage 3-weapon combo is the heavy PPC.

Also C-ERPPC.

[BreakinStuff]

The6thMessenger, on 23 February 2018 - 08:52 PM, said:

Also C-ERPPC.

You didn't read my whole post.

C-ERPPC is listed in the game client as 15-Heat, 10-Damage.

[The6thMessenger]

BreakinStuff, on 23 February 2018 - 08:53 PM, said:

You didn't read my whole post.

C-ERPPC is listed in the game client as 15-Heat, 10-Damage.

I did. Also C-ERPPC does 10 damage + 2.5 splash per component, it does 15 damage, therefore it can do 45 damage with 3, just as 3 HPPCs although not completely PPFLD.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 23 February 2018 - 08:56 PM.

[BreakinStuff]

The6thMessenger, on 23 February 2018 - 08:54 PM, said:

I did. Also C-ERPPC does 10 damage + 2.5 splash per component, it does 15 damage, therefore it can do 45 damage with 3, just as 3 HPPCs although not completely PPFLD.

How is that listed in the weapon stats, or is it?

[Tarogato]

FupDup, on 23 February 2018 - 08:27 PM, said:

As for "why ever use the Snubber?" I wouldn't want to use it even in the current game. It needs more efficient damage per heat than other PPCs since it has the shortest range, and potentially a little bit faster cooldown but that's optional.

What if I told you that plenty of people already use the SNPPC as it is? And it works? So I don't think it needs a very drastic change. At least it actually has a well-defined role to begin with (as a short-range pinpoint energy hammer), unlike the std PPC which suffers from being smooshed between the roles of the SNPPC, the ERPPC, and having the more attractive HPPC right beside it to steal its spot.

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I think what you're missing is that it's not just about PPCs vs. lasers. It's also about all of the PPCs against each other. Specifically, the LPPC + PPC + HPPC all do the exact same thing with just different fitting requirements. This means that inevitably one combination will become the most optimal, i.e. using 2 PPC instead of 1 LPPC + 1 HPPC is an overall downgrade.

This is why we gave the PPC the greatest heat buff of all the PPCs. Sure, you'll gain +1 ton by going HPPC+LPPC instead of running 2PPC, but 2PPC will actually be more heat efficient without the extra heatsink.

[The6thMessenger]

BreakinStuff, on 23 February 2018 - 08:59 PM, said:

How is that listed in the weapon stats, or is it?

It's not listed in the weapon stats, however it still does. So HPPC isn't the only PPC that can do 45 damage.

https://mwomercs.com.../list/full.json

[Khobai]

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What if I told you that plenty of people already use the SNPPC as it is? And it works? So I don't think it needs a very drastic change. At least it actually has a well-defined role to begin with (as a short-range pinpoint energy hammer), unlike the std PPC which suffers from being smooshed between the roles of the SNPPC, the ERPPC, and having the more attractive HPPC right beside it to steal its spot.

Its used for the wrong reason though.

The reason people use SNPPC shouldnt be because nobody wants to use regular PPC because of its zero damage deadzone.

People should wanna use both the regular PPC and SNPPC for different reasons

SNPPC for higher damage and lower heat. And regular PPC for longer range without the extreme heat of the ERPPC.

Edited by Khobai, 23 February 2018 - 09:07 PM.

[Tarogato]

Khobai, on 23 February 2018 - 08:51 PM, said:

Get rid of zero damage deadzones on LPPC, PPC, and HPPC. replace with damage dropoff if needed.

One problem I have with replacing the deadzones with dropoffs, is that presently if you are inside the minimum range and you deal no damage, the reticle and paperdoll don't flash - a clear indication that you did no damage. But if there is a damage dropoff (like LRMs) then you will get the full reticle and paperdoll flash, as if you dealt full damage. But you didn't, because it's a minimum range falloff and the game does nothing to tell you that. I think this is very misleading for new (perhaps most) players. So I have qualms about going over to that, even though it's the option that I'd personally prefer, and it would be very easy to put into the game.

[BreakinStuff]

The6thMessenger, on 23 February 2018 - 09:03 PM, said:

It's not listed in the weapon stats, however it still does. So HPPC isn't the only PPC that can do 45 damage.

https://mwomercs.com.../list/full.json

Thanks for the clarification, I actually do appreciate it.

[Khobai]

Tarogato, on 23 February 2018 - 09:05 PM, said:

One problem I have with replacing the deadzones with dropoffs, is that presently if you are inside the minimum range and you deal no damage, the reticle and paperdoll don't flash - a clear indication that you did no damage. But if there is a damage dropoff (like LRMs) then you will get the full reticle and paperdoll flash, as if you dealt full damage. But you didn't, because it's a minimum range falloff and the game does nothing to tell you that. I think this is very misleading for new (perhaps most) players. So I have qualms about going over to that, even though it's the option that I'd personally prefer, and it would be very easy to put into the game.

hows that any different from grazing someone for a fraction of 1 damage with an ERLL at max range? as opposed to hitting them with full damage from an ERLL at optimum range?

it seems like youd have to be opposed to that too... the point is that problem already exists in the game anyway.

Edited by Khobai, 23 February 2018 - 09:11 PM.

[Sereglach]

Tarogato, on 23 February 2018 - 09:01 PM, said:

What if I told you that plenty of people already use the SNPPC as it is? And it works? So I don't think it needs a very drastic change. At least it actually has a well-defined role to begin with (as a short-range pinpoint energy hammer), unlike the std PPC which suffers from being smooshed between the roles of the SNPPC, the ERPPC, and having the more attractive HPPC right beside it to steal its spot.

What if we remembered to mention that the SNPPC only takes 2 crits and 6 tons? I don't think those buffs would completely obsolete the SNPPC, because one of it's best selling points is its size. Also, if the SNPPC got the little heat-efficiency buff that other people have mentioned, I think it would still sit in a nice spot.

Edited by Sereglach, 23 February 2018 - 09:10 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 23 February 2018 - 09:04 PM, said:

Its used for the wrong reason though.

The reason people use SNPPC shouldnt be because nobody wants to use regular PPC because of its zero damage deadzone.

People should wanna use both the regular PPC and SNPPC for different reasons

SNPPC for higher damage and lower heat. And regular PPC for longer range without the extreme heat of the ERPPC.

Is this because you say so again?

Close-range role as a difference is perfectly fine, unless of course you're going to argue that ERMLs should deal as much as LLs?

SNPPC doesn't need higher damage, it's not that heavy. However it needs good heat to participate versus other short-ranged weapons.

[Khobai]

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SNPPC doesn't need higher damage, it's not that heavy. However it needs good heat to participate versus other short-ranged weapons.

it does need higher damage. at least 11 if not 12 damage.

1 less ton/crit and better heat efficiency is not enough to justify half the optimum range

especially if were talking about removing the zero damage deadzones on regular and heavy PPCs

short range weapons need to hit harder than medium or long range weapons. to justify the risk of closing to short range. otherwise why not just stay at medium range and do the same damage? it might cost extra heat but the risk is significnatly lower too... theres no reason to take added risk without the reward of doing more damage.

the only way to make the SNPPC worth getting into short range to use, is if it hits harder.

Edited by Khobai, 23 February 2018 - 09:25 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

The6thMessenger, on 23 February 2018 - 08:16 PM, said:

Honestly not much. What point are you trying to hammer there? Cause if we did the LPPC cooldown buff thing, would people suddenly do the LPPC+AC? The point was is that PPC+AC would still be better choice than LPPC+AC.

If LPPC cool-down is buffed, then it becomes useful to run a trio of them with UAC/2 or UAC/5 because the DPS is higher than with lasers and the package runs cooler than twin PPC both because it generates less heat and because there are more DHS.

Anyway, the point I was making was that there are no truly good PPC+AC builds at the moment because the PPCs just run too hot and the ACs eat the tonnage you'd want for DHS, and because once something ducks under 90 meters your remaining firepower is trash.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 23 February 2018 - 09:19 PM, said:

it does need higher damage

No it doesn't.

Khobai, on 23 February 2018 - 09:19 PM, said:

better heat efficiency is not enough to justify half the optimum range

Yes it does, after all it's short-ranged and it needs so to compete with other weapons at it's range bracket. It's something you keep missing.

Khobai, on 23 February 2018 - 09:19 PM, said:

especially if were talking about removing the zero damage deadzones on PPCs

But we're not talking about that, you're the one proposing that.

Yeonne Greene, on 23 February 2018 - 09:20 PM, said:

If LPPC cool-down is buffed, then it becomes useful to run a trio of them with UAC/2 or UAC/5 because the DPS is higher than with lasers and the package runs cooler than twin PPC both because it generates less heat and because there are more DHS.

Isn't that the point of PPC+AC is to dump a lot of damage that converges into one location well? It could be done, yes sure, but wouldn't doing more damage with less exposure better? Wouldn't that be meta?

I'm not saying that people still won't go LPPC+AC, i'm just saying it's still not going to be better even if it's more of a choice, considering meta of course. I suppose i mis-spoke that "suddenly" part.

Yeonne Greene, on 23 February 2018 - 09:20 PM, said:

Anyway, the point I was making was that there are no truly good PPC+AC builds at the moment because the PPCs just run too hot and the ACs eat the tonnage you'd want for DHS, and because once something ducks under 90 meters your remaining firepower is trash.

And it's not really a point i am contending.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 23 February 2018 - 09:27 PM.

[Khobai]

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Yes it does, after all it's short-ranged and it needs so to compete with other weapons at it's range bracket. It's something you keep missing.

But its never going to compete with pulse lasers in that regard which is what youre missing. pulse lasers will always be more heat efficient. The SNPPC cant possibly hope to win against other weapons on heat efficiency. Especially since IS pulses are already as close to PPFLD as lasers get.

Thats why it needs to do more damage than pulse lasers instead. And more damage than the regular PPC.

Quote

But we're not talking about that, you're the one proposing that.

zero damage deadzones are a boring unfun game mechanic. So of course im proposing that.

the people who wanna keep that in the game are not making the game more fun by doing so

its an arbitrary mechanic that makes no sense and adds nothing fun or beneficial to the game. Why should a PPC do 0 damage at 89m. But 10 damage at 91m? get rid of it.

thats not even how min ranges worked in battletech... ppcs didnt do 0 damage in battletech. their accuracy just dropped off. damage dropoff would make far more sense.

Edited by Khobai, 23 February 2018 - 09:36 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 23 February 2018 - 09:26 PM, said:

But its never going to compete with pulse lasers in that regard which is what youre missing. pulse lasers will always be more heat efficient. So the SNPPC cannot hope to win against other weapons on heat efficiency.

Thats why it needs to do more damage than pulse lasers instead.

Wrong, it's not going to win, but it would be a choice, that it offers a slightly different playstyle. That's what you're missing because you think so one-dimensionally.

So what if pulse-lasers would be more heat efficient? The aim is that SNPPCs would be manageable at close range, so much so that it's a choice when picking a different playstyle. Do we hit-and-run, or do we leg-hump? Do we stare for extra 0.6s of the MPL? or do we just instantaneously dump damage so we can turn immediately?

Khobai, on 23 February 2018 - 09:26 PM, said:

zero damage deadzones are a boring unfun game mechanic. So of course im proposing that.

the people who wanna keep that in the game are not making the game more fun by doing so

its an arbitrary mechanic that makes no sense and adds nothing fun or beneficial to the game. Why should a PPC do 0 damage at 89m. But 10 damage at 91m? get rid of it.

thats not even how min ranges worked in battletech... ppcs didnt do 0 damage in battletech. their accuracy just dropped off. damage dropoff would make far more sense.

But that's not what we are talking about.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 23 February 2018 - 09:43 PM.

[DerHuhnTeufel]

Khobai, on 23 February 2018 - 09:26 PM, said:

zero damage deadzones are a boring unfun game mechanic. So of course im proposing that.

I think it's a strategic choice that needs to be taken into account for weapon balance. Don't want a dead zone? Don't bring that weapon. Not every PPC has it, so do you want extra heat, extra tonnage, or less range? Without the dead zone, there's no reason for a snub nose what so ever, and a lot of the reason for choosing and ER PPC goes out the window.

Not that it matters. The devs will never consider any of this.

[Khobai]

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I think it's a strategic choice that needs to be taken into account for weapon balance. Don't want a dead zone? Don't bring that weapon.

thats the problem people dont bring that weapon. ever.

its not a strategic choice at all. its an obvious one: dont bring weapons with deadzones.

if you want people to use regular PPCs again, the damage deadzone needs to be removed.

Edited by Khobai, 23 February 2018 - 10:03 PM.