169 replies to this topic

[Scyther]

While participating in the 'community-driven balance' thread, and the concomitant 'PPFLD is bad/good' arguments, I spent more time thinking about what it means to actually open MWO up to a wider choice of weapons and playstyles.

I sat down with a couple friends and discussed options, but we came back again and again to the difference between BT core mechanics design - which previously focused on tabletop and then (mostly) single-player games, and MWO's mech-shooter design.

The killer issue was how instant, near-perfect convergence led to rapid focused damage on key mech parts. Legging, arming, ST destruction, CT focussing, boating, and the whole PPFLD issue all boiled down to being able to place the majority of your shots right where you aimed them.

This makes MWO just another twitch shooter where you are a big metal mech instead of a soldier/fantasy warrior. With some meta 'mech build' mechanics thrown in.

It leads to 'the meta' favoring a few specific mech chassis and weapons layouts, which we've seen again and again in comp play. There's little point tweaking weapon systems when the result is a slightly different version of high PPFLD weapons boats as the next meta.

Convergence has been an issue since the early days (with many threads already), and is one of the dominant factors in game play today.

The question becomes: can players people can live without convergence, and if we ditch it, what flavor of 'non-convergence' should we opt for?

1) Keep convergence forever, heck, make it better! I am teh Snipinator!
2) Arms have convergence, torso weapons point straight ahead (or potentially have a small degree of convergence).
3) Cone of fire, where each weapon has a (potentially) weapon-specific chance of scattering it's damage to an adjacent mech section.
4) Packetized damaged, where weapon damage is broken up into chunks and each chunk has a chance of striking an adjacent section to aim point.
5) Whatever other methods anyone cares to suggest.

The downside, especially for the twitch shooters, is the fact that you can no longer place 30-60 points of damage on the specific body part you are aiming at, at will. Of course, no one else can either.

The advantages:
-Arm mounts potentially become much more useful, helping mechs with arm mounts (even gorilla arms) stay competitive.
-Reduces the PPFLD-is-doom argument, which might allow us to get away with less ghost heat and weapon-nerfings.
-Increases TTK and specific component survivability without having to mess with broad armor/structure buffs.
-Increases the attractiveness of short-mid range play over long range poking, while decreasing the effectiveness of poptarting.
-Increases the ability to tune, balance and differentiate weapon systems by adjusting their accuracy characteristics. Same for some mech chassis/quirks.
-Potentially adds a source of Skill tree nodes that might add to or replace some of the existing nodes.

Edited by MadBadger, 11 February 2018 - 05:47 AM.

[El Bandito]

Look, the community already discussed about all the ideas you listed, for many years. Nothing came out of it. Community is too divided on the issue, plus PGI don't give a flipping duck. So nothing will come out of this, as well.

[Seranov]

Removing proper convergence would only make the game more frustrating to play. No.

[Hit the Deck]

I can't suspend my disbelief when lasers have spread for the sake of gameplay.

If they are the only thing which are kept to be pinpoint to entertain people like me then the idea dies prematurely.

[Vonbach]

You cant have pinpoint lasers and have a balanced game. Its that simple.
Either lasers lose pinpoint convergence or nerf their damage or vastly increase armor.
BT was designed around random damage locations.

[El Bandito]

Hit the Deck, on 11 February 2018 - 06:29 AM, said:

I can't suspend my disbelief when lasers have spread for the sake of gameplay.

If they are the only thing which are kept to be pinpoint to entertain people like me then the idea dies prematurely.

I can perfectly suspend my disbelief. Just imagine all the torsi lasers can shoot only forward. And arm laser mounts will never hit the same pixel cause they are not mounted on the same pixel. Or perhaps lens focusing requires the targeting computer to actually lock onto the target, like in the novels so convergence is never instant.

Edited by El Bandito, 11 February 2018 - 06:36 AM.

[Asym]

To be honest, what's the point: El Bandito is right.

[Vonbach]

El Bandito, on 11 February 2018 - 06:34 AM, said:

I can perfectly suspend my disbelief. Just imagine all the torsi lasers can shoot only forward. And arm laser mounts will never hit the same pixel cause they are not mounted on the same pixel. Or perhaps lens focusing requires the targeting computer to actually lock onto the target, like in the novels so convergence is never instant.

The problem with target lock is clans would shriek like banshees. Target lock would go long to help balance.

[Scyther]

I'm pretty sure the community has endlessly discussed weapon balance, boating, ghost heat, and PPFLD as well, so should we just take all those things off the table as 'never gonna change'?

Convergence is the 800-pound gorilla in the room. It's the key issue that makes boating, PPFLD, long range poking/sniping and even poptarting a problem. We've been slapping bandaids on those issues since day 1 trying to make them behave, to no great effect.

Either we deal with convergence in adapting a game whose base design made precision shooting impossible, or we spend years squabbling over details that are basically irrelevant.

[El Bandito]

Vonbach, on 11 February 2018 - 06:41 AM, said:

The problem with target lock is clans would shriek like banshees. Target lock would go long to help balance.

Which is why I never thought of MWO as a sim, for it is just another shooter game.

Edited by El Bandito, 11 February 2018 - 06:44 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

El Bandito, on 11 February 2018 - 06:34 AM, said:

I can perfectly suspend my disbelief. Just imagine all the torsi lasers can shoot only forward. And arm laser mounts will never hit the same pixel cause they are not mounted on the same pixel. Or perhaps lens focusing requires the targeting computer to actually lock onto the target, like in the novels so convergence is never instant.

Actually I was talking about how lasers have cone of fire which would look weird to my eyes. Imagine a Nova firing its 6 ERMLs arm and then you see lasers beams go all over the place which will look funny as heck.

Making the torsi mount not able to converge is not weird in a sense, but I don't know if I'd like it. The idea that it can make arm mounts worth more is tempting, but we also have 'mechs high mounted arms already which makes them super good in this system.

Edited by Hit the Deck, 11 February 2018 - 06:48 AM.

[Chados]

They tried the laser lock idea back when we were testing Energy Draw and the Church of “But Muh Skillz” howled like drunken wolves to preserve the pinpoint 80-point alpha strike. They’ve mooted the idea of the sort of convergence mechanics you see in games like Armored Warfare as well, and got snowed under with screams of “RNGeezus!” Too many people want “Call of Duty” in big armored spacesuits. That’s why we get ridiculous nerfs like particle projector cannon firing charged particles with velocities less than an autocannon, medium lasers with longer cooldown and more heat per tick than a large laser, and air strike/artillery spam. Because the only other fix is to drop pinpoint convergence.

Edited by Chados, 11 February 2018 - 06:58 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Chados, on 11 February 2018 - 06:57 AM, said:

They tried the laser lock idea back when we were testing Energy Draw and the Church of “But Muh Skillz” howled like drunken wolves to preserve the pinpoint 80-point alpha strike. They’ve mooted the idea of the sort of convergence mechanics you see in games like Armored Warfare as well, and got snowed under with screams of “RNGeezus!” Too many people want “Call of Duty” in big armored spacesuits. That’s why we get ridiculous nerfs like particle projector cannon firing charged particles with velocities less than an autocannon, medium lasers with longer cooldown and more heat per tick than a large laser, and air strike/artillery spam.

nope, Laser Lock was InfoWarfair PTS not Energy Draw,

[Chados]

And the Church of “But Muh Skillz!” steps in to raise red herrings. Fine, maybe I got the timing of that test wrong. My point, Andi, is that THEY TRIED IT AND PEOPLE LIKE YOU DIDNT LIKE IT BECAUSE IT KILLED BIG PINPOINT ALPHAS.

[FupDup]

Chados, on 11 February 2018 - 06:57 AM, said:

They tried the laser lock idea back when we were testing Energy Draw and the Church of “But Muh Skillz” howled like drunken wolves to preserve the pinpoint 80-point alpha strike. They’ve mooted the idea of the sort of convergence mechanics you see in games like Armored Warfare as well, and got snowed under with screams of “RNGeezus!” Too many people want “Call of Duty” in big armored spacesuits. That’s why we get ridiculous nerfs like particle projector cannon firing charged particles with velocities less than an autocannon, medium lasers with longer cooldown and more heat per tick than a large laser, and air strike/artillery spam.

Actually, the reason that people shot down the laser lock idea is because it made lasers completely and totally useless compared to every other weapon system that didn't need a red dorito to have full range (and therefore full damage by extension).

People just switched to different pinpoint alphas (PPCs, ACs, Gauss) you nimrod.

Edited by FupDup, 11 February 2018 - 07:05 AM.

[TKSax]

Chados, on 11 February 2018 - 07:03 AM, said:

And the Church of “But Muh Skillz!” steps in to raise red herrings. Fine, maybe I got the timing of that test wrong. My point, Andi, is that THEY TRIED IT AND PEOPLE LIKE YOU DIDNT LIKE IT BECAUSE IT KILLED BIG PINPOINT ALPHAS.

The lock had nothing to do with convergence and locks just the effected the range of the lasers not convergence. It added nothing to the game-play, and was rightfully killed off, unfortunately PGI it seems spiteful on how the community rejected ghost range and the way they did the radar changes the killed everything related to the info-warefare PTS

Edited by TKSax, 11 February 2018 - 07:05 AM.

[HammerMaster]

Alpha /beta bloom reticule that disappeared for no reason would have fixed this year's ago.
Eg.
Waiting longer to fire on a locked Target had better convergence.
Snap shooting without waiting results in a hit but be prepared for spread as your servos/lenses have not fully aligned yet. (Why why! This made sense!)

Edited by HammerMaster, 11 February 2018 - 07:10 AM.

[Chados]

FupDup, on 11 February 2018 - 07:05 AM, said:

Actually, the reason that people shot down the laser lock idea is because it made lasers completely and totally useless compared to every other weapon system that didn't need a red dorito to have full range (and therefore full damage by extension).

People just switched to different pinpoint alphas (PPCs, ACs, Gauss) you nimrod.

LOL. I’m a nimrod? Oh, Fup. Still full of yourself. That’s why I love you.

[TKSax]

FupDup, on 11 February 2018 - 07:05 AM, said:

Actually, the reason that people shot down the laser lock idea is because it made lasers completely and totally useless compared to every other weapon system that didn't need a red dorito to have full range (and therefore full damage by extension).
.

Correct, and it also effected lower skilled players more because most high skill players do no need locks to track where they have previously damage mechs so they do always lock and some new/lower skilled player would want to stand out in the open waiting for lock before they fired and get pummeled.

HammerMaster, on 11 February 2018 - 07:07 AM, said:

Alpha /beta bloom reticule that disappeared for no reason would have fixed this year's ago.

It went a way for a good reason according to PGI it reaked havoc with the hit registration in the game.

[HammerMaster]

TKSax, on 11 February 2018 - 07:09 AM, said:

Correct, and it also effected lower skilled players more because most high skill players do no need locks to track where they have previously damage mechs so they do always lock and some new/lower skilled player would want to stand out in the open waiting for lock before they fired and get pummeled.



It went a way for a good reason according to PGI it reaked havoc with the hit registration in the game.

Hit reg woes that SHOULD be in order now correct?