21 replies to this topic

[UnofficialOperator]

Someone please educate me here

Ghost heat was implemented to counter what?

PPFLD yes?

Why is PPFLD an issue?

Because of low TTK yes?

So because of some old bads that can't hold aim or in general play well, we have gone in a convoluted and never ending cycle of balance. Because we assume the bads are a bigger population and hence provide more $$.

How has that worked out for you PGI?

Side note: Paradoxically, some have argued that a high TTK will ensure less RNG and the goods should almost always win over the bads while at the same time letting the bads survive longer and making it seem like they are doing more. Wtf?

And yet no one addresses the root of it which is the PSR system and MM. If PSR and MM functioned correctly, without any upward bias, then the correct tiers will be fighting each other. Fake T1s wouldn't have to face gauss ppcs and can be correctly assigned to T5 where they can play with their LRMs which they love so much.

Sure I believe some balancing is always necessary within their own tiers but as of how the tiers and MM work now, any balancing act is a fools errand because it is simply impossible to cater to all the different factions of the population at once.

FIX tiers and MM and the rest would follow.

Edit: And if you scrubs are so insistent on a higher TTK then by all means make it so that armor values are 3x what they are now so everyone can plink away slowly since a high TTK = thinking man's shooter because.. more time to think about how to die

Edited by UnofficialOperator, 09 February 2018 - 02:17 AM.

[MrMadguy]

Ghost heat have been implemented to counter:
1) High alpha pinpoint boating, like ER-PPC boating
2) AC-2 pseudo-RAC chainfire macros, used to blind enemies

Laser vomit, that needs ghost heat penalty the most now, appeared just recently as result of constant ballistic/PPC nerfs.

Edited by MrMadguy, 09 February 2018 - 02:53 AM.

[Khobai]

1) ghost heat exists to counter all boating, not just PPFLD

2) PPFLD is a problem because its unequivocably better than all other types of damage. Its better than lasers. Its better than spread damage. If PPFLD was left unchecked there would be no reason to use anything other than PPFLD weapons.

3) PPFLD weapons get STRONGER in a higher TTK environment. Because they penetrate deeper into the locations they hit. While non-PPFLD weapons dont penetrate as deeply and spread their damage across several locations.

Quote

Edit: And if you scrubs are so insistent on a higher TTK then by all means make it so that armor values are 3x what they are now so everyone can plink away slowly since a high TTK = thinking man's shooter because.. more time to think about how to die

There are mechs like the locust or piranha that currently die in one hit.

So how can you say there isnt room to increase TTK? lol.

Going from double to triple armor would still not be considered "high TTK". maybe medium TTK.

Edited by Khobai, 09 February 2018 - 03:31 AM.

[PocketYoda]

These bads you talk of that got ghost heat added would now be either Veterans or long gone.. Ghost heat has been here for years now.

[El Bandito]

UnofficialOperator, on 09 February 2018 - 02:01 AM, said:

Someone please educate me here

Ghost heat was implemented to counter what?

PPFLD yes?

Why is PPFLD an issue?

Because of low TTK yes?

So because of some old bads that can't hold aim or in general play well, we have gone in a convoluted and never ending cycle of balance. Because we assume the bads are a bigger population and hence provide more $$.

How has that worked out for you PGI?

I used to think there is no one more misguided than anti-vaxxers and flat-earthers. Forums always prove me wrong.

[Scyther]

If you've played games like WoT, MWO, or MOBA's long enough, you can see it's a plain fact that poor-to-slightly-under-average players make up roughly 60% of the player base. Average to decent make up 25% or so. Good players are around 10%, and great players make up the last 5%.

How much those various groups spend is another issue, but all games need that 60% of population that is 'not so good' because that is where growth, word of mouth, new players, and of course, match fillers all reside.

PSR and MM aren't the root of anything. Every competitive game I've played has an MM that gets called out regularly by the players as the source of all their bad matches. And frankly most of them do an 'okay but not real good' job, and largely that is due to the vagaries of quickly picking 2 groups of people out of a random and constantly shifting pool of players.

Finally, PPFLD and TTK are an actual issue, not something just brought up by 'the bads', because given the time it takes to start a match, load all the screens, wait out the timers, get the end summary etc... if matches end quickly then it soon becomes not worth waiting out the various delays for 5 minutes of batte.

About the only accurate/meaningful thing in your post is where you point out that higher TTK swings RNG in factor of goods while also letting bads feel they had more of a match, yet you feel this is a 'paradox'.

Being wrong/misguided in almost everything you brought up shows you put little thought into your post, and it was mostly just emotional venting. Which is why El Bandito put little effort into his reply.

Don't be a forum 'bad'. Increase your TTP. Take part in the thinking man's MechForumer.

[A Headless Chicken]

El Bandito, on 09 February 2018 - 05:13 AM, said:

I am just keeping in line with the quality of the thread you made.

ＨＯＷ　ＤＡＲＥ　ＹＯＵ　ＩＮＦＲＩＮＧＥ　ＵＰＯＮ　ＴＨＥ　ＧＲＥＡＴ　ＡＳＳＡＵＬＴ　ＰＲＯ　ＵＮＯＦＦＩＣＡＬＯＰＥＲＡＴＯＲ’Ｓ　（ＷＨＯ　ＨＡＰＰＥＮＳ　ＴＯ　ＨＡＶＥ　Ａ　ＰＯＳＩＴＩＶＥ　ＫＤＲ　ＡＮＤ　ＷＬＲ　ＡＮＤ　Ａ　ＰＡＳＳＩＯＮ　ＦＯＲ　ＮＡＳＣＡＲ）　ＳＡＦＥＳＰＡＣＥ　ＬＭＡＯ

[Asym]

UnofficialOperator, on 09 February 2018 - 02:01 AM, said:

Side note: Paradoxically, some have argued that a high TTK will ensure less RNG and the goods should almost always win over the bads while at the same time letting the bads survive longer and making it seem like they are doing more. Wtf?

And yet no one addresses the root of it which is the PSR system and MM. If PSR and MM functioned correctly, without any upward bias, then the correct tiers will be fighting each other. Fake T1s wouldn't have to face gauss ppcs and can be correctly assigned to T5 where they can play with their LRMs which they love so much.

Sure I believe some balancing is always necessary within their own tiers but as of how the tiers and MM work now, any balancing act is a fools errand because it is simply impossible to cater to all the different factions of the population at once.

FIX tiers and MM and the rest would follow.

Edit: And if you scrubs are so insistent on a higher TTK then by all means make it so that armor values are 3x what they are now so everyone can plink away slowly since a high TTK = thinking man's shooter because.. more time to think about how to die

First off, what is PPFLD?

Us "bads" just play this game for the fun of it..... After all, it's something to do when the weather won't let me test new bullets for corporations and determine if their predicted ballistic cooefficients actually perform to specification at published range values and that happens outside (pesky old chronographs need sun ligh!)
I know, what a drag eh, being retired.....for the second time....

Of course, let me see, this post involved bads and aiming...........oh drats, another gamer talking about shooting again (sigh).

It's a silly game lad.....make believe weapons... Science fiction. Not real. Take a breath, relax, have some fun and you need to practice your people skills cause I suspect that being this toxic isn't condusive to good in-game relations....

So enlighten me, what is PPFLD and have some fun !!!!

Edited by Asym, 09 February 2018 - 06:58 AM.

[ROSS-128]

It is true that balance-by-potato doesn't work, but it's for a different reason than the OP states.

The reason balance-by-potato doesn't work is that the potatoes either don't have any coherent idea of what they want, or the thing they want is something that no amount of dev effort will ever get them.

For example, no matter how high you raise the TTK, the people saying TTK is too low now will likely continue to say it is too low. Why? Because they don't have any coherent idea of what a higher TTK actually does, so no matter how high it rises it will likely never deliver on their expectations.

Generally the one thing they do want is to win more,everyone does of course. But for bad players, no amount of balancing or TTK increases or TTK decreases will ever bring this about, so they will be unhappy no matter what the devs do.

That's why the devs have to balance around players who actually have some idea what they're talking about, and who can put up the number-crunching to prove it. Because no matter how small a minority that group of players is, they're the only ones who actually have a good enough understanding of the game to appreciate any of the changes. They're the only ones who can articulate what they want beyond "buff me and nerf everyone else".

And that's also why the best thing the devs can do for bad players is use MM to isolate them. No amount of balancing or TTK or anything will ever allow them to get the game experience they want, only the MM can do that by trying to make sure they don't run into anyone much better than they are.

[Verilligo]

Asym, on 09 February 2018 - 06:51 AM, said:

First off, what is PPFLD?

Us "bads" just play this game for the fun of it..... After all, it's something to do when the weather won't let me test new bullets for corporations and determine if their predicted ballistic cooefficients actually perform to specification at published range values and that happens outside (pesky old chronographs need sun ligh!)
I know, what a drag eh, being retired.....for the second time....

Of course, let me see, this post involved bads and aiming...........oh drats, another gamer talking about shooting again (sigh).

It's a silly game lad.....make believe weapons... Science fiction. Not real. Take a breath, relax, have some fun and you need to practice your people skills cause I suspect that being this toxic isn't condusive to good in-game relations....

So enlighten me, what is PPFLD and have some fun !!!!

PPFLD. Pin-point front-loaded damage. That is to say, you fire your guns and all of their damage lands not only in one spot, but in a single instant. A Gauss Rifle, for instance, would be 15 PPFLD.

You also seem to be very busy for a retired person. Programmer, TV advertiser, school student, researcher, ballistics evaluator? And yet you're retired for the second time? I hope at least some of those are hobbies. I would say, though, that your ability to calculate bullet trajectory and keep an actual rifle on target is not necessarily relevant to a discussion of video game balance.

[Gas Guzzler]

Samial, on 09 February 2018 - 03:31 AM, said:

These bads you talk of that got ghost heat added would now be either Veterans or long gone.. Ghost heat has been here for years now.

Being a "veteran" and being a terribad are not mutually exclusive.

[Metus regem]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 February 2018 - 08:24 AM, said:

Being a "veteran" and being a terribad are not mutually exclusive.

Just as being T1 doesn't magically make someones point more valid that a T5....

Not saying that you do that Gas, just adding another side to what you said.

[CFC Conky]

Asym, on 09 February 2018 - 06:51 AM, said:

....

So enlighten me, what is PPFLD and have some fun !!!!

I always thought PPFLD was an M829A2 APFSDS round to the solar plexus...

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[Gas Guzzler]

Metus regem, on 09 February 2018 - 08:37 AM, said:

Just as being T1 doesn't magically make someones point more valid that a T5....

Not saying that you do that Gas, just adding another side to what you said.

I don't go by Tier, but I am the ******* that looks at the leaderboard to see how well the person I am arguing with understands the game.

[blood4blood]

Ghost heat is to prevent boating, not to counter PPFLD. (Ghost heat applies to weapons like LRM's, yeah? No PPFLD there.)

Why they feel so strongly about preventing boating with artificial mechanics I couldn't tell you.

The anti-PPFLD stuff is more like...
- missile spread
- lbx spread
- ultra's and rac's multiple rounds tending to hit different components (movement, torso twist, etc.)
- laser burn duration instead of true hitscan instant FLD
- PPC splash

[Metus regem]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 February 2018 - 09:20 AM, said:

I don't go by Tier, but I am the ******* that looks at the leaderboard to see how well the person I am arguing with understands the game.

Then how well do I hold up? I don't play enough to rank on the leaderboard, but I do understand the mechanics of the game...

I mean after all, you can hit T1 by sitting back and using LRM's all day after all... it just takes time.

[Gas Guzzler]

Metus regem, on 09 February 2018 - 09:42 AM, said:

Then how well do I hold up? I don't play enough to rank on the leaderboard, but I do understand the mechanics of the game...

I mean after all, you can hit T1 by sitting back and using LRM's all day after all... it just takes time.

Uhhhhhh.... according to the leaderboards you have played less than 10 matches a month for over a year, so I don't know how you could possible have a good grasp on game balance at this point based on that alone. I didn't even look at what your stats were once they were recorded.

And again, its not about T1, its about having a high WLR (greater than 2 without group queue, much higher with group queue), high KDR (2-3+), and high average match score (>350 preferably but 400+ is better) all together.

Keeping in mind that group queue can boost WLR and KDR, whilst solo queue boosts average match score.

[Mystere]

UnofficialOperator, on 09 February 2018 - 02:01 AM, said:

Someone please educate me here

Ghost heat was implemented to counter what?

PPFLD yes?

Why is PPFLD an issue?

Because of low TTK yes?

So because of some old bads that can't hold aim or in general play well, we have gone in a convoluted and never ending cycle of balance. Because we assume the bads are a bigger population and hence provide more $$.

How has that worked out for you PGI?

Side note: Paradoxically, some have argued that a high TTK will ensure less RNG and the goods should almost always win over the bads while at the same time letting the bads survive longer and making it seem like they are doing more. Wtf?

And yet no one addresses the root of it which is the PSR system and MM. If PSR and MM functioned correctly, without any upward bias, then the correct tiers will be fighting each other. Fake T1s wouldn't have to face gauss ppcs and can be correctly assigned to T5 where they can play with their LRMs which they love so much.

Sure I believe some balancing is always necessary within their own tiers but as of how the tiers and MM work now, any balancing act is a fools errand because it is simply impossible to cater to all the different factions of the population at once.

FIX tiers and MM and the rest would follow.

Edit: And if you scrubs are so insistent on a higher TTK then by all means make it so that armor values are 3x what they are now so everyone can plink away slowly since a high TTK = thinking man's shooter because.. more time to think about how to die

LRM hater confirmed.

In a related note, did you win 1st, 2nd, or 3rd place in the just concluded MWOWC?

Edited by Mystere, 09 February 2018 - 11:15 AM.

[Asym]

Verilligo, on 09 February 2018 - 07:40 AM, said:

PPFLD. Pin-point front-loaded damage. That is to say, you fire your guns and all of their damage lands not only in one spot, but in a single instant. A Gauss Rifle, for instance, would be 15 PPFLD.

You also seem to be very busy for a retired person. Programmer, TV advertiser, school student, researcher, ballistics evaluator? And yet you're retired for the second time? I hope at least some of those are hobbies. I would say, though, that your ability to calculate bullet trajectory and keep an actual rifle on target is not necessarily relevant to a discussion of video game balance.

First thanks for the definition. I guess I could have googled it but I wanted to be sure the definition was from inside of this game culture... Thanks!

Yes. Life's a funny path we take. I was a programmer in the late 60's and early 70's....COBOL, FORTRAN, Assembler, etc...
Yes, I have a degree in CS (then called data processing).
Yes, I have a degree in television production and have done the TV thing.....Cause computers, code and television are all combined now, eh!? I knew that in the 1960's.......and, was involved in that movement (everyone thought we were crazy!!!)
Yes, I just graduated with a masters degree and I've been asked to participate in a Doctoral program in human factors (video gaming cultures and technologies - because I've a couple of decades of experiences with game coding and I've been playing video games since the 1980's !).

Here's a neat link as to where we as a team are starting from and why we're going there:
http://www.dtic.mil/.../u2/p003368.pdf note the date.....
http://www.dtic.mil/.../u2/a294786.pdf Here's what we did back then.
Here's where we are: https://www.theatlan...ermatch/544062/

All public domain. Enjoy some neat history....

Yes, I've been shooting competitively since age 7 and to this day compete in multiple events....
And, right now, the Hornady ELD-X at 200 grains is driving me crazy in a 300 Win Mag platform - OAL is just insane and I just can't get sub-MOA performance at 300 yards and it's driving me crazy - geeze, this project is worse than NASCAR'ing with Annihilators.
Many of you are just starting out.......many, like me, are at the end of the journey; and, I am a busy person and love MWO.... Again thanks.

[Abisha]

ghost heat is a MUST in this game and it stills needs more ghost heat.

reason


explained why.