366 replies to this topic

[The Lighthouse]

So, recently I made a reddit post here.

https://www.reddit.c..._understand_or/


Other than fact that people have just terrible reading comprehension skills, there are once again folks trying to bringing out stat's from Jarl's list to discredit my post.


Well...



https://leaderboard....earch?u=kwm1800

https://leaderboard....=The+Lighthouse

https://leaderboard....=Hopeless+loser


These three guys have different stats. Different playtime, different skills, and pretty much everything is different.

Well.... except they are all me.

I am not going to say I am free from this blame, but if you read around, people are bringing up original posters' in-game stat from Jarl's site all the time to counter the argument rather than trying to make rational counter arguments.

First of all, it's public shame, and second, it's a huge disservice to community because I have noticed that people are no longer putting effort to something they are disagreed with and instead resort to shame attacks because... it's easy.

And this is not the first time I was attacked (well, almost always people are trying to bring stat. Though I noticed I don't get attacks here because they are bringing correct stat for my current play ID here).




But now, I am tired of defending myself. Hence this post.





Of course, I mentioned David Kim from other thread a while ago, being good at the game does not mean you actually understand the game well enough to make good balance decision.

As the one who involved in balancing team for Heroes of Newerth, the best skill for being a balancer is listening skill, not playing skill. Even the worst possible player can have great understanding of the game if he/she is willing to listen, or a person can become David Kim, who is such an excellent player but is extremely poor at understanding his own game because he refuses to listen.


There is a reason why Valve shortly stopped publishing player stat to public for Dota 2. Yes, one of the most competitive games does not publish leaderboard data to public (though some sites do re-construction to make leaderboards for themselves) because when it was available, it was abused to death. As well as most of competitive games these days do not publish detailed data for players. At best, they usually publish top 100 only.


The one who made Jarl's list may have never intended to be used this way, but I think it is time to stop already.

[Vxheous]

The stats between your three account's are pretty much the same, especially when you compare each month together. I usually start looking at someone's stats when their arguments start making me go all:

Their stats give a little glimpse of where they're coming from, like if it's a genuine lack of understanding of the game mechanics leading to a poor argument. Yes, there are can be excellent players that have a poor understanding of the game, but is is far more rare to have a bad player that really have a good understanding of the game.

Edited by Vxheous, 09 February 2018 - 01:01 PM.

[The Lighthouse]

Vxheous, on 09 February 2018 - 12:58 PM, said:

The stats between your three account's are pretty much the same, especially when you compare each month together. I usually start looking at someone's stats when their arguments start making me go all:

Their stats give a little glimpse of where they're coming from, like if it's a genuine lack of understanding of the game mechanics leading to a poor argument. Yes, there are can be excellent players that have a poor understanding of the game, but is is far more rare to have a bad player that really have a good understanding of the game.

I am not even sure how did you even reach the conclusion that those accounts are basically same when one account has twice more KDR ratio with 60+ more match scores than other. You are so deeply in confirmation bias.

Yes, bad players with good understanding of the game are rare. As well as good players with poor understanding, but they exist and three franchises were utterly destroyed by that guy (yes, I am still super salty toward DK).

And this does not counter the argument that this whole Jarl's list is used as nothing more than public shaming others.

Edited by The Lighthouse, 09 February 2018 - 01:08 PM.

[Bombast]

One dude posted your stats. One. Get over it.

[The Lighthouse]

Bombast, on 09 February 2018 - 01:07 PM, said:

One dude posted your stats. One. Get over it.

This is not exactly first time, and I think a lot of non-T1 players with less than 1 kdr ratio are probably encountering this issue all the time, even in this forum,

[InvictusLee]

The Lighthouse, on 09 February 2018 - 01:12 PM, said:

This is not exactly first time, and I think a lot of non-T1 players with less than 1 kdr ratio are probably encountering this issue all the time, even in this forum,

Happens to me all the time. Im actually not terrible at the game, i just dont have T1 internet or the best gaming computer out there.

[Bud Crue]

Simple guideline:
Folks with mediocre to bad stats (such as myself) get to post about anything without said stats bieng brought up, with one exception. If you post in topics about competitive play, what skilled players do, or things of that nature then expect to be called out, as you should be. If however, you bring up my stats in any other circumstances you are officially designated an *******. Don't let it keep you up at night though, any more than my bad stats keep me up.

[pattonesque]

The Lighthouse, on 09 February 2018 - 01:12 PM, said:

This is not exactly first time, and I think a lot of non-T1 players with less than 1 kdr ratio are probably encountering this issue all the time, even in this forum,

well sure, but those players have to present very compelling arguments for why they should be listened to

back when the KDK-3 first came out there was a non-insignificant group of people on these forums who screamed that it was terrible because it would get CT cored immediately -- and then you realize from reading what they wrote that it's not that the mech is bad, it's that THEY are bad and don't know how to twist or can't aim well enough to bully people away from them when they're not twisting. Jarl's List is a nice shorthand for when people make bold claims -- if they're well below 1.0 KDR than I feel it's safe to ignore them.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

So your old retired account is your worst, your regular account is average, and your alt that got to farm in T5 a bit is highest score.

At least that's the conclusion people get from looking at said stats.


That and your suggestion is pretty insanely bad, like really bad. You start off kinda good saying that gauss and PPC wasn't even a problem until the nerfs to other weapons, but then you give the solution to this as having more than double the cooldown on PPCs and almost double cooldowns on gauss.

What does that do other than make PPCs and Gauss absolutely useless? Your post really makes it seem like you have little understanding of the meta, especially with the incorrect information about what was meta and when that someone else pointed out in a post.

[Cnaiur]

The Jarl's List is an amazing tool, and has been very useful for me in terms of improving my game play. You can't delude yourself in the face of the numbers. Ball don't lie.

But it's also valuable for tactical adjustments. I can often modify my expectations and gameplay accordingly based on the stats of my teammates. I also get less salty during losses when I realize its simply a MM screw job; tough to win with a bunch of bottom 40% players. The Jarl's List helps manage expectations.

I don't think it should be used to shame people for not being good, but if somebody is making odd claims, there's nothing wrong with using it as evidence that he really just might have no clue what he's talking about.

[EnochsBook]

Removing the leaderboards is a silly idea IMO. I find them very useful to track my own progress and compare myself against other players. They're a valuable tool in any multiplayer game and they shouldn't be removed simply because some people use them to discredit other players.

[Fleeb the Mad]

Counter arguments here are skirting the legitimate issue issue that MWO stats are easily manipulated and as presented are frequently misleading.

It's far too easy for people to farm their numbers in the group queue or by fighting in low tiers on alts. People tend to give them far more weight than they deserve, same as tier numbers.

Something does need to be done to clean that up.

[Bombast]

Fleeb the Mad, on 09 February 2018 - 01:48 PM, said:

People tend to give them far more weight than they deserve, same as tier numbers.

Impossible. No one gives Tier weight.

[Jay Leon Hart]

I only see stats brought out for 3 reasons;

1. E-Peening - LOOKIT ME! I DUN GUDZ!

2. "Everyone not in my tier (or above) can't argue with me" ... has a dozen people in the same tier (or higher) calling out their (comparatively) poor stats.

3. People with terrible balance ideas, saying everyone else "just doesn't get it", so stats are used to prove that, maybe, *they* "just don't get it".

[Fleeb the Mad]

Bombast, on 09 February 2018 - 01:50 PM, said:

Impossible. No one gives Tier weight.

Then why do so many people display their tier badges?

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Fleeb the Mad, on 09 February 2018 - 02:06 PM, said:

Then why do so many people display their tier badges?

Why would anyone hide it?

[Bombast]

Fleeb the Mad, on 09 February 2018 - 02:06 PM, said:

Then why do so many people display their tier badges?

Why wouldn't we?

I wish it was displayed by default, actually. Not for stat shaming - To make it easier to see when MM has crapped itself.

[Vxheous]

The Lighthouse, on 09 February 2018 - 01:07 PM, said:

I am not even sure how did you even reach the conclusion that those accounts are basically same when one account has twice more KDR ratio with 60+ more match scores than other. You are so deeply in confirmation bias.

Yes, bad players with good understanding of the game are rare. As well as good players with poor understanding, but they exist and three franchises were utterly destroyed by that guy (yes, I am still super salty toward DK).

And this does not counter the argument that this whole Jarl's list is used as nothing more than public shaming others.

Ok then, Kwm1800 is retired at Season 6, W/L for that month is 1.11 K/D is 1.02. Compare that to The Lighthouse at Season 7, W/L is 1.17 K/D is 1.36. Hopeless Loser stats are much higher at Season 7 2.17 and 3.0 respectively, but only 19 games played, so inflated numbers.

Let's look at the recent season. The Lighthouse is 1.24 / 1.58 / 283 AMS while Hopeless Loser is 1.35 / 2.23 / 312 AMS. The difference between them isn't that significant, and again, your main has almost 5x the games played (506 to 129). Your main is Tier 1 matchmaking, while your Alt I'm guessing is TIer 3 matchmaking.

Edited by Vxheous, 09 February 2018 - 02:13 PM.

[Angus McFife VI]

Bombast, on 09 February 2018 - 02:10 PM, said:

Why wouldn't we?

I wish it was displayed by default, actually. Not for stat shaming - To make it easier to see when MM has crapped itself.

I don't think the tier system is entirely inaccurate, have you been to a tier 4-5 game? Oh boy...

[Mystere]

EnochsBook, on 09 February 2018 - 01:31 PM, said:

Removing the leaderboards is a silly idea IMO. I find them very useful to track my own progress and compare myself against other players. They're a valuable tool in any multiplayer game and they shouldn't be removed simply because some people use them to discredit other players.

In that case, make the leaderboard have a public/private toggle. The e-peen wielding players can then wave their e-peens to their hearts' delight.

That's a very sound compromise.

Edited by Mystere, 09 February 2018 - 02:17 PM.