366 replies to this topic

[EnochsBook]

Mystere, on 15 February 2018 - 03:16 PM, said:

What if I such a player was actually playing the role of sacrificial bait, tasked with distracting the enemy and drawing their attention -- and dying while doing so -- while the rest of the team took advantage of the distracted enemy?

Experience has told me this rarely works. Good bait draws enemy fire and survives.

[Mystere]

pattonesque, on 15 February 2018 - 03:22 PM, said:

oh for sure man

I mean even if that was true he ... loses more often than he wins so I guess it ain't work so good

I meant in general and not necessarily the player you were responding to.

EnochsBook, on 15 February 2018 - 03:27 PM, said:

Experience has told me this rarely works. Good bait draws enemy fire and survives.

Where is it said that he has to survive?


To both of you, how do you identify a competent drop commander based solely on stats? Not a fighter, not bait, but a commander.

Edited by Mystere, 15 February 2018 - 03:32 PM.

[pattonesque]

Mystere, on 15 February 2018 - 03:29 PM, said:

I meant in general and not necessarily the player you were responding to.

Then I would say you don't need to sacrifice your mech to do that. Any mech fast enough to do that is fast enough to get away once it draws attention. If you try it in an assault or something then more often than not you'll just be taking yourself out of the fight way too early.

Sometimes you'll get jumped by alert lights and you'll get owned early but the vast majority of the time you should more or less be able to decide when you die, which is something I think a lot of lower-tier players don't quite understand.

[EnochsBook]

Mystere, on 15 February 2018 - 03:29 PM, said:

To both of you, how do you identify a competent drop commander based solely on stats? Not a fighter, not bait, but a commander.

An excellent winrate and good all around stats.

[pattonesque]

Mystere, on 15 February 2018 - 03:29 PM, said:

Where is it said that he has to survive?


To both of you, how do you identify a competent drop commander based solely on stats? Not a fighter, not bait, but a commander.

1. It is important to survive for as long as possible so you can contribute as much firepower as possible for as long as possible. Dying just means the enemy has one less target to shoot at and your team has one less mech returning fire, which is why so many 1-0 matches rapidly turn into 4-1 matches which rapidly turn into 12-3 matches.

2. There's no way to identify a "competent drop commander" from stats alone but if they were competently drop-calling in every match AND their team was listening to them AND their level of personal play didn't detract from or (better) contributed to their drop-calling then they would have a positive win rate. If they don't, well ...

[Mystere]

EnochsBook, on 15 February 2018 - 03:36 PM, said:

An [1]excellent winrate and [2]good all around stats.

Yes and not necessarily.

pattonesque, on 15 February 2018 - 03:38 PM, said:

positive win rate

Unless a player has never won a drop, all win rates are positive^(*).


(*) It's a pet peeve of mine.

Edited by Mystere, 15 February 2018 - 03:42 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mystere, on 15 February 2018 - 03:29 PM, said:

To both of you, how do you identify a competent drop commander based solely on stats? Not a fighter, not bait, but a commander.

If his stats show that he isn't laying on the pain and winning, then I don't care if he is a competent commander, he isn't really a credit to team.

[Mystere]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 February 2018 - 03:41 PM, said:

If his stats show that he isn't laying on the pain and winning, then I don't care if he is a competent commander, he isn't really a credit to team.

Edited by poopenshire, 16 February 2018 - 09:05 AM.

[YueFei]

Der Geisterbaer, on 15 February 2018 - 10:16 AM, said:

Just look at this thread and count the number of times where the conversation didn't even remotely go the way you're trying to picture it here ... From the very beginning there's this notion that stats actually grant insight into the (intellectual) understanding a person has of this game.

OK, are you going to listen to random streetballer#427 when he says something that directly contradicts what an actual NBA player advises you to do?

Quote

So I'd say bad attempt at creating a narrowed example that also verges on the brink of strawmanning the issue (again) ... So Y'ARLY

The wise bird chooses its branch carefully, the wise man (or woman) chooses whose advice they take.

Imagine random McMechN00b decides he wants to get better at the game, and asks for advice. He sees 2 dudes arguing. Who is he supposed to believe?

Should the good players let bad advice go unchallenged?

Quote

As I said before: The problem already arises when stat shaming is used as a (pseudo) argument against something that is an largely unrelated opinion / suggestion which occurs more often than a stat reference is actually made in proper context.

So we're dealing with ad hominem territory and thus a fallacy by virtue most of the time. The rest then is typically a waste of time ... or - in my personal case - basis for good entertainment with regards to the regularly shown hypocrisy and unintended irony with some icing on the cake by references to things like Dunning-Kruger that currently is so "hip".

There's nothing wrong with being random streetballer#427. Just that if you are random streetballer#427, and you give some advice, and then an actual pro says it's wrong, it's time to sit down and listen, not to make screeching noises.

I mean, really, "stat shaming"? It's just "stat facts", how you feel about having your stats pointed out to you is entirely up to you. You can either start hissing about it, or don't care.

What I'm saying is that if you are a potato, own that. I'm a potato and I don't pretend to be anything else, and I don't think others should have a problem with owning up to being potatos, either. It's not like admitting to being a leper, LOL. I'm here to have fun, to potato out, to derp my way to early deaths and laugh about it. If you see me in-game and we're on the same team, I'll even volunteer to be your meatshield and to be the first one leading a push when it gets called.

[EnochsBook]

Mystere, on 15 February 2018 - 03:40 PM, said:

Yes and not necessarily.

I would say having good all around stats is necessary.
If someone doesn't pull their weight, at least in terms of damage dealt and of not dying too early, then they're a detriment to the team. There is nothing stopping a good caller/commander from also being a good player. In fact it's more likely that the better the commander is at commanding, the better he must be at the game in general, because commanding requires a solid knowledge of the game.

If you're good enough to tell the team what do to, you should be good enough to hold your own on the battlefield.

Edited by EnochsBook, 15 February 2018 - 03:50 PM.

[pattonesque]

Mystere, on 15 February 2018 - 03:46 PM, said:

what he said was very clear and now you're being disingenuous my dude

honestly this game is not TERRIBLY complicated. Poor players like to scream into their mics about flanking and suppressive fire and stuff that makes them feel like they're in a war movie but it's way, way, way more important to put big alphas on important components and avoid having the same done to you in return. At competitive levels of play drop-calling is much more important but in solo or group queue you usually just need one guy calling focus fire targets.

Edited by poopenshire, 16 February 2018 - 09:05 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mystere, on 15 February 2018 - 03:46 PM, said:

Low WLR, Low KDR, Low average match score = bad player, regardless of whether or not he is a "commander", because a commander has SO much value in quick play...

Edited by poopenshire, 16 February 2018 - 09:05 AM.

[chucklesMuch]

Re OP... I want more stats not less. I like to know how I'm doing vs myself.



Re thread ..Please make it stop!!



Lets get back to #makeMWOfunAGAIN #brownSeaBrown #helpingPGIunderstand #spreadsheetvsActual

(points about fun, variety of viable builds & balance seem lost on them).

[Gas Guzzler]

pattonesque, on 15 February 2018 - 03:51 PM, said:

what he said was very clear and now you're being disingenuous my dude

honestly this game is not TERRIBLY complicated. Poor players like to scream into their mics about flanking and suppressive fire and stuff that makes them feel like they're in a war movie but it's way, way, way more important to put big alphas on important components and avoid having the same done to you in return. At competitive levels of play drop-calling is much more important but in solo or group queue you usually just need one guy calling focus fire targets.

Yeah, or just saying push (insert area here). Beyond that its just execution. What's really magical is when the team just does something together automatically, but I know watching the mini-map can be a tall order.

[Mystere]

pattonesque, on 15 February 2018 - 03:51 PM, said:

what he said was very clear and now you're being disingenuous my dude

honestly this game is not TERRIBLY complicated. Poor players like to scream into their mics about flanking and suppressive fire and stuff that makes them feel like they're in a war movie but it's way, way, way more important to put big alphas on important components and avoid having the same done to you in return. At competitive levels of play drop-calling is much more important but in solo or group queue you usually just need one guy calling focus fire targets.

This was the was the "WAT!" part:

Gas Guzzler, on 15 February 2018 - 03:41 PM, said:

If his stats show that he isn't laying on the pain and winning, then I don't care if he is a competent commander, he isn't really a credit to team.

Get it? Or do I need to explain further.

Gas Guzzler, on 15 February 2018 - 03:52 PM, said:

Low WLR, Low KDR, Low average match score = bad player, regardless of whether or not he is a "commander", because a commander has SO much value in quick play...

Who said anything about solo QP?

chucklesMuch, on 15 February 2018 - 03:52 PM, said:

Re OP... I want more stats not less. I like to know how I'm doing vs myself.

Then you should have absolutely no problem if they were kept private, right?

Edited by Mystere, 15 February 2018 - 03:59 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mystere, on 15 February 2018 - 03:56 PM, said:

Who said anything about solo QP?

I'm talking about all quick play. Even in group QP, a commander isn't that important. Yeah someone saying "go here" to heard the cats is fine, but ultimately they still need to be able to do damage as much as anyone else does.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 15 February 2018 - 03:59 PM.

[pattonesque]

Mystere, on 15 February 2018 - 03:56 PM, said:

This was the was the "WAT!" part:



Get it? Or do I need to explain further.





Who said anything about solo QP?



Then you should have absolutely no problem if they were kept private, right?

At this point people have provided you with a number of examples to counter your points and in response you're alternating between memes and condescension, which is a pretty common pattern on the internet when one has been owned.

[Mystere]

pattonesque, on 15 February 2018 - 03:59 PM, said:

At this point people have provided you with a number of examples to counter your points and in response you're alternating between memes and condescension, which is a pretty common pattern on the internet when one has been owned.

You actually call those good examples? <smh>

Here's a clue.

Edited by Mystere, 15 February 2018 - 04:14 PM.

[pattonesque]

Mystere, on 15 February 2018 - 04:11 PM, said:

You actually call those good examples? <smh>

Yes, several excellent examples which you no doubt will refute once you're ready to share your wisdom* with the rest of us.

*You're avoiding answering the question because you really don't know (despite 1,000ish games and 20,000ish posts) how to be good at this game.

[Gas Guzzler]

pattonesque, on 15 February 2018 - 04:14 PM, said:

Yes, several excellent examples which you no doubt will refute once you're ready to share your wisdom* with the rest of us.

*You're avoiding answering the question because you really don't know (despite 1,000ish games and 20,000ish posts) how to be good at this game.

Inb4 picks of random joystick setup which is the excuse for being bad