53 replies to this topic

[Jackal Noble]

FupDup, on 19 February 2018 - 11:14 AM, said:

I decided to boot up the game to compare the Blanner's agility values to existing mechs. For reference, here is the Blanner Prime:

Acceleration: 36.15
Deceleration: 37.72
Turn Rate: 65.65 (includes +5% quirk)
Torso Turn Rate: 112.5

Now, here is the average Linebacker:

Acceleration: 45.39
Deceleration: 36.53
Turn Rate: 72.76
Torso Turn Rate: 130.5

May I ask what the **** is going on here? The argument that the Linebacker needs to be more agile than the normal heavy is invalid here because the Black Lanner is also supposed to be abnormally agile for a medium (gigantic locked XL, MASC). It has less armor (lower base values AND lower quirks), lower pod space, and apparently now also lower agility in every aspect except Deceleration (and it's only a tiny bit better than the LBK in that area).

The one area that the BKL should have blown away the competition was agility, but apparently that's just asking too much.

Ya well isn't MASC going to take those values and magnify them, and allow it to turn on a dime when active? I am assuming that is why it's base agility isn't as savory, because locked MASC. I've taken to thinking of the BLanner as a welter-weight LBK, but with even less weight due to being 10 tons lighter, plus the locked in MASC tonnage.

I've got to say, I will likely pick up the reinforcements but the LA omnipod is killing me. The hero arm is downright bizarre looking.

[DaManBearPig]

FupDup, on 19 February 2018 - 11:14 AM, said:

I decided to boot up the game to compare the Blanner's agility values to existing mechs. For reference, here is the Blanner Prime:

Acceleration: 36.15
Deceleration: 37.72
Turn Rate: 65.65 (includes +5% quirk)
Torso Turn Rate: 112.5

Now, here is the average Linebacker:

Acceleration: 45.39
Deceleration: 36.53
Turn Rate: 72.76
Torso Turn Rate: 130.5

May I ask what the **** is going on here? The argument that the Linebacker needs to be more agile than the normal heavy is invalid here because the Black Lanner is also supposed to be abnormally agile for a medium (gigantic locked XL, MASC). It has less armor (lower base values AND lower quirks), lower pod space, and apparently now also lower agility in every aspect except Deceleration (and it's only a tiny bit better than the LBK in that area).

The one area that the BKL should have blown away the competition was agility, but apparently that's just asking too much.

Son of a b***h.
Why in the world would anyone ever want to take this mech? I mean other than aesthetics (Its an awesome looking mech), PGI has made this thing useless on day 1.
PGI, you can create scenarios all you want in your head of when and where this thing will be useful, but I'm telling you now, it needs way more quirks if you expect anyone to buy this thing.

[Gas Guzzler]

I can't help but think that us drawing light to this comparison is probably going to result in the LBK getting its agility adjusted..

[FupDup]

JackalBeast, on 19 February 2018 - 11:47 AM, said:

Ya well isn't MASC going to take those values and magnify them, and allow it to turn on a dime when active? I am assuming that is why it's base agility isn't as savory, because locked MASC. I've taken to thinking of the BLanner as a welter-weight LBK, but with even less weight due to being 10 tons lighter, plus the locked in MASC tonnage.

I've got to say, I will likely pick up the reinforcements but the LA omnipod is killing me. The hero arm is downright bizarre looking.

I have to do the exact calculations, but in general a 55-ton medium should not have to use MASC in order to have more agility than a 65-ton heavy when both of them are meant to be abnormally mobile for their size. The LBK has a passive agility advantage that doesn't have a time limit for how long you can use it.

And really, locked MASC is often seen as a penalty just on its own merits, it shouldn't be used to preemptively nerf the mech's base stats.

Gas Guzzler, on 19 February 2018 - 11:48 AM, said:

I can't help but think that us drawing light to this comparison is probably going to result in the LBK getting its agility adjusted..

That honestly wouldn't be a completely bad thing, the fact that it can outmaneuver most mediums and some light mechs is just pure insanity because it still has more guns and armor than the little guys in addition to that mobility. To clarify I own two LBK's.

They could compensate the LBK in some other areas (IMO I'd like a larger twist radius) but otherwise its base agility values are just way too high for its capabilities.

Edited by FupDup, 19 February 2018 - 11:54 AM.

[Jackal Noble]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 February 2018 - 11:48 AM, said:

I can't help but think that us drawing light to this comparison is probably going to result in the LBK getting its agility adjusted..

Negative.

[BrunoSSace]

Still dont know why people wanted this mech. Just an over sized light with clunky hit boxs. Being a Inner Sphere fan boy I am, this thing will need armour quirks, like the linebacker. It does not look fun to play, even in Scouting, this thing will get walked all over. Sorry for the pun .
Speed is ok but firepower is better. This will not compete with the bushie.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Its not fair to compare blanner and linebacker. LBK is a heavy, it gets matched by another heavy in the other team, and it needs more of an edge to pull its weight than a blanner.

BLanner will be matched by a medium in other team, and while undergunned for a medium, the gap in firepower, presumably, will not be that big as with LBK and other heavies.

[Seranov]

That would make sense if the BLanner brought anything of real value to the table. It doesn't. It's hilariously undergunned and all it will be good for is annoying enemies and then running away. And now it's less agile than a mech 10 tons heavier unless it's using MASC? This thing is going to be super DoA, and if you see one past March 1st it'll be surprising.

It won't have the survivability to get hit, it's not fast enough to make up for the fact that it's HUGE compared to other mechs that can go the same speed, and if you skip the omnipod bonuses it won't have the extra range to help keep it out of reach of enemy mechs you will have super mediocre hardpoints.

I could feel in my gut that this mech was going to be garbage from the instant they announced it, and I have no doubt that it will be now.

[FupDup]

Nema Nabojiv, on 19 February 2018 - 12:19 PM, said:

Its not fair to compare blanner and linebacker. LBK is a heavy, it gets matched by another heavy in the other team, and it needs more of an edge to pull its weight than a blanner.

BLanner will be matched by a medium in other team, and while undergunned for a medium, the gap in firepower, presumably, will not be that big as with LBK and other heavies.

I've never bought into that argument. All mechs exist in a single unified sandbox. This is not MW4 singleplayer Solaris with separated weight class arenas. Every mech has to fight against every other mech in all modes of the game except Scouting Mode Medium Brawler Mode, and as such they should all have trade-offs relative to each other.

In this specific case it's probably more about the BKL being too weak more than the LBK being too stronk (although I think the latter does apply a little bit), but in general all mechs should be balanced against one another since they do not exist in a vacuum.

[Relishcakes]

Is it me or does the asymmetry ruin most of the mechs that this happens on? The kitfox arms if you swap omnipods are off, the nova if i remember right is off. The hellbringer ST lasers dont line up...that just bothers me. sorry i know its off topic. just sayin symmetry!

[Nema Nabojiv]

FupDup, on 19 February 2018 - 12:30 PM, said:

I've never bought into that argument. All mechs exist in a single unified sandbox. This is not MW4 singleplayer Solaris with separated weight class arenas. Every mech has to fight against every other mech in all modes of the game except Scouting Mode Medium Brawler Mode, and as such they should all have trade-offs relative to each other.

You are wrong here. We have a matchmaker which assembles class-symmetric teams. That means your heavy has to be roughly on par with another heavy in other team if you want to be an asset for the team. If it is better than other heavy then good for you. If it is worse then someone in your team has to pull his and a bit of your weight to win.

But a heavy does not need to be able to facetank an assault and win, because why would you need assaults then.

BTW, dragons and quickdraws are more agile than all the 55-tonners except wolverine, but that does not mean they're good as heavies in a same way as bushwacker is good as a medium. Well not all of them at least, some are OPAF.

Edited by Nema Nabojiv, 19 February 2018 - 01:02 PM.

[Cato Zilks]

FupDup, on 19 February 2018 - 11:14 AM, said:

I decided to boot up the game to compare the Blanner's agility values to existing mechs. For reference, here is the Blanner Prime:

Acceleration: 36.15
Deceleration: 37.72
Turn Rate: 65.65 (includes +5% quirk)
Torso Turn Rate: 112.5

Now, here is the average Linebacker:

Acceleration: 45.39
Deceleration: 36.53
Turn Rate: 72.76
Torso Turn Rate: 130.5

May I ask what the **** is going on here? The argument that the Linebacker needs to be more agile than the normal heavy is invalid here because the Black Lanner is also supposed to be abnormally agile for a medium (gigantic locked XL, MASC). It has less armor (lower base values AND lower quirks), lower pod space, and apparently now also lower agility in every aspect except Deceleration (and it's only a tiny bit better than the LBK in that area).

The one area that the BKL should have blown away the competition was agility, but apparently that's just asking too much.

https://docs.google....#gid=1393526485

Here are all the accel stats.

What is more problematic is that they used quirks to boost turn rate which makes agility tree investment more crappy. Skills add to quirk numbers and whatever percentage they add up to multiplies the base numbers. If you raised the base number by 15% then added 15% from quirks you have compounding gains. The actual base turn speed for the BL is 62.44.
For example:
(62.44+15%)+15%=82.58
62.44+30%=81.17
Quirking turnrate as opposed to adjusting the base rates just screws us over in tiny ways.

Edited by Cato Zilks, 19 February 2018 - 02:33 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

So the 10% range quirk is a global one, every Black Lanner has it on its CT. That is actually pretty nice, I'm not going to rule this out yet. That makes the 6 ERML build a pretty good option too, doing full damage at about 500m after skills.

Honestly, I'm still excited to try this thing out.

[C E Dwyer]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 February 2018 - 08:42 AM, said:

..are actually kind of useful.

https://mwomercs.com...e-black-lanner/

I'm guessing that the weapon stuff is set of 8 and the durability is tied to omni-pods. Still, I might grab the reinforcements even.

good grief so they are !

I'm almost sad I didn't get it now, but I need to know more about things before I put money back into the game

[The Lighthouse]

If 10% is indeed global, it will be at least an excellent ERLL sniper.

Edited by The Lighthouse, 19 February 2018 - 02:30 PM.

[Seranov]

The Lighthouse, on 19 February 2018 - 02:29 PM, said:

If 10% is indeed global, it will be at least an excellent ERLL sniper.

I don't know how "excellent" it will be with a whopping two ERLL (or three if you want to go with no extra heat sinks) and if you start hardcore stripping armor to fit extra cooling it's gonna be tough.

[Gas Guzzler]

Seranov, on 19 February 2018 - 02:37 PM, said:

I don't know how "excellent" it will be with a whopping two ERLL (or three if you want to go with no extra heat sinks) and if you start hardcore stripping armor to fit extra cooling it's gonna be tough.

I mean that's not really the issue 3 would be fine. The Adder can do 4 ER LL with 11 DHS.

The bigger issue IMO is that the Shadow Cat is better suited for that role, so it doesn't make sense to try to do that with a Black Lanner, when you could be playing that edge game with ER ML alphas instead or missiles at closer range with supplementary machine guns.

[The Lighthouse]

I was typing something else and just remembered, isn't PGI going to nerf ERLLs again this patch, right?


Edit : Very fortunately I am wrong.

Edited by The Lighthouse, 19 February 2018 - 02:52 PM.

[FupDup]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 February 2018 - 02:48 PM, said:

The Adder can do 4 ER LL with 11 DHS.

That sounds obnoxiously hot and appears to not have much or any DPS advantage over a double ERLL Cheetah troll.

[Gas Guzzler]

FupDup, on 19 February 2018 - 02:55 PM, said:

That sounds obnoxiously hot and appears to not have much or any DPS advantage over a double ERLL Cheetah troll.

Its not about DPS. Its about a light that can pump out 44 damage at extreme range (twice) and then cool off. In the days of the skill tree and double coolshots, heat would be even less of a problem now.

It might not be too popular now but that exact loadout was actually used by EMP in comp a couple years back. I can't remember the league.