36 replies to this topic

[HGAK47]

I remember when PGI changed the lasers around a bit and everyone then was very shocked to see large laser nerfs.

I personally dont ever ever use them, I cant think of too many times I have seen others use them either.

[BrunoSSace]

The current IS large laser is meh. It does need a slight heat or bean duration reducion.
I reckon .5 heat reduction on large lasers would fix the weapon. Giving people a reason to use large lasers over its Er Large laser brother. Cause the range bonuses makes this one the clear winner atm. Cause dps and a slight heat reduced is nothing.

[Y E O N N E]

Verilligo, on 22 February 2018 - 11:17 AM, said:

Yes, you're quite right. I was trying to say that in order to keep up with the pack most of the time in offensive actions, the higher engine ratings help a lot. Things like 325s and 350s. For that, in order to hit 20 DHS on a BLR-1G, you have to consider an XL. If you don't need that higher engine rating and don't necessarily need the mounts of the BLR-1G, you can manage it perfectly fine on an LFE or STD in a number of Stalkers. Point being, apart from being slower, there's nothing that makes the Stalker necessarily all that much weaker, which is what Mogs seemed to imply.

I suppose I misinterpreted your initial comment, so my apologies.

For some perspective, a 300 lets you run at 57.2, a 325 lets you run at 61.9, and a 350 lets you run at 66.7. Between the 300 and 325 is a mere 4.7 kph, which is pragmatically negligible. The 350 is a bigger deal, but you already hit the issue with going that large.

With ERLL play, done right you don't need to keep up with the pack. That's basically the whole point, to be able to command the field from one place. All you need is a strong position and a team to screen for you so you don't get ganked by Lights while you do your work. Your friends move the front forward and you just keep pace enough to have effective damage up ahead.

HGAK47, on 22 February 2018 - 11:51 AM, said:

I remember when PGI changed the lasers around a bit and everyone then was very shocked to see large laser nerfs.

I personally dont ever ever use them, I cant think of too many times I have seen others use them either.

The LL before the nerf was basically a 5-ton, 9-damage Clan Medium Pulse laser, because that's how fast it did its damage once you skilled it up: 0.85 seconds total duration. It was making the nerfed LPL even less desirable, and instead of rolling back what was an asinine decision to cut damage from the LPL they just nerfed the next in line.

[Yosharian]

Do you guys even play this game? XL engine on a Stalker..

I took my super long range Stalker out for a spin yesterday and it felt fine.

[SCHLIMMER BESTIMMER XXX]

Yosharian, on 21 February 2018 - 04:20 PM, said:

One heat less per weapon is significant.

Consider that the current heat nodes are balanced around something like 0.75% or something like that.

7 heat vs 8 heat means the standard Large Laser produces just over 12% less heat than the ERLL. That's the equivalent of more than 10 heat gen nodes.

It also cools down faster, resulting in better damage per second.

ERLL/LL balance is in a good place right now.

if it woud be 0,1 per weapon it woud be ok, like i wrote by the way....
the problem is:
i get for changing *4xErLL* to *4xLL* *0,01 heat* management gain.
It seems it makes no difference how many weapons you have build in of a kind, you only get 0,01.The 0,01 dont scale with additional LL/ErLL

P.S. also, 7 and 8 may sound significant on paper but the effect it has in game is pretty small.
Its actually 0,01 heat management.
(double check my screenshots and the values down right in the mech info box.Heat management jumps
from 1,07 to 1,06 after changing the ErLL´s against LL´s.that is in no way significant when you consider
that a heat efficient mech start at heat management 2,00 (thats 200 times 0,01... you get the idea?)

Edited by SHRedo, 22 February 2018 - 06:51 PM.

[Yosharian]

SHRedo, on 22 February 2018 - 06:42 PM, said:

if it woud be 0,1 per weapon it woud be ok, like i wrote by the way....
the problem is:
i get for changing *4xErLL* to *4xLL* *0,01 heat* management gain.
It seems it makes no difference how many weapons you have build in of a kind, you only get 0,01.The 0,01 dont scale with additional LL/ErLL

P.S. also, 7 and 8 may sound significant on paper but the effect it has in game is pretty small.
Its actually 0,01 heat management.
(double check my screenshots and the values down right in the mech info box.Heat management jumps
from 1,07 to 1,06 after changing the ErLL´s against LL´s.that is in no way significant when you consider
that a heat efficient mech start at heat management 2,00 (thats 200 times 0,01... you get the idea?)

What makes you think I care at all about the heat management stat?

Someone else in the thread already explained that that particular stat won't change all that much because the Large Laser cools down faster than the ERLL.

Do you understand? If my weapon uses less heat than yours but cools down faster, our net heat usage is similar.

[SCHLIMMER BESTIMMER XXX]

Yosharian, on 21 February 2018 - 04:30 PM, said:

Boreal Vault is a Faction Play map.

Most QP maps in the game (where the vast majority of players play the game) don't have that much play around the 850-1000m envelope which is where ERLLs and similarly-ranged weapons dominate. I know because I often run builds that function at that range, and frequently you just cannot abuse the range.

At the moment it's entirely viable to forgo the extra range of the ERLL in favour of the reduced heat. The standard LL is very effective at 450-600m which is where a lot of combat occurs.

My Atlas S runs a standard LL in the CT because I don't need the extra range on the build, it's designed to be effective at 400m or less.

You're also ignoring the DPS part of the argument.

you have significant damage fall off long before the ErLL reches the limits of its max range,
All i say is ,it shoud have a noticable advantage to use LL.
0,01 additional heat management for 4xErLL
(compared to 4xLL) is laughable.
A heat efficient mech starts at 2,00 heat management, thats 200 times 0,01
sry, but i woud be stupid if i throw away the obvious advantages of the ER variant for 0,01 heat management
gain when using LargeLasers xD

Edited by SHRedo, 22 February 2018 - 07:06 PM.

[SCHLIMMER BESTIMMER XXX]

Yosharian, on 22 February 2018 - 06:58 PM, said:

What makes you think I care at all about the heat management stat?

Someone else in the thread already explained that that particular stat won't change all that much because the Large Laser cools down faster than the ERLL.

Do you understand? If my weapon uses less heat than yours but cools down faster, our net heat usage is similar.

when i burn you down to 50% of your armor long before you are even beeing able to do similar damage to me
it matters even more imho.
But hey! np, i just pointed out an issue in the game that effects you the most because you using LL´s actively when i
read your posts correctly.I for myself dont need to care, because i switched the LL´s out the moment i noticed it.
I allways thought the sole purpose of non ER variants is that they run cooler.I think thats what they shoud do.

[SCHLIMMER BESTIMMER XXX]

Samial, on 21 February 2018 - 05:00 PM, said:

Seriously how do you play with 1.07 heat you can't manage that in a large battle you must constantly be over heating..

1.3 is average imo..

who says that i play this mech the way its build on the screenshots?
furthermore, woud it change anything about the issue this threat is about?

Yosharian, on 21 February 2018 - 04:30 PM, said:

At the moment it's entirely viable to forgo the extra range of the ERLL in favour of the reduced heat.

i think you care about heat management

[Kubernetes]

SHRedo, on 22 February 2018 - 07:03 PM, said:

you have significant damage fall off long before the ErLL reches the limits of its max range,
All i say is ,it shoud have a noticable advantage to use LL.
0,01 additional heat management for 4xErLL
(compared to 4xLL) is laughable.
A heat efficient mech starts at 2,00 heat management, thats 200 times 0,01
sry, but i woud be stupid if i throw away the obvious advantages of the ER variant for 0,01 heat management
gain when using LargeLasers xD

Why do you care about a useless number like heat management?

I told you: the LL has shorter cooldown, which means its HPS advantage over the ERLL doesn't look as great.

In actual practice a 14% heat gen advantage is HUGE.

Edited by Kubernetes, 22 February 2018 - 08:17 PM.

[Verilligo]

SHRedo, on 22 February 2018 - 07:22 PM, said:

who says that i play this mech the way its build on the screenshots?
furthermore, woud it change anything about the issue this threat is about?


i think you care about heat management

He's saying he doesn't care about the heat management stat because the heat management stat is effectively meaningless. It can help you get a rough idea of how the mech operates, but there are a lot of factors that the stat itself doesn't accurately reflect. It's generally more meaningful when dealing with laser vom to look at the number of heat sinks you have equipped so you can get an idea of your cooling rate and max heat load.

If you don't need the range of the ER, then you might very well fight better overall using the cooler lasers. Like when it comes to WHM laser vom, you're pairing LL with ERML. For that build you want to be getting into relatively close range anyway so that your ERML are effective. In that case, you're going to have a better time with the standard LL rather than the ERLL. I can practically fire 3 LL all day with 20 DHS, but I cannot say the same for ERLL. I'm not opposed to the standard LL getting a small heat reduction, but it's not like the weapon system itself is terrible right now.

[SCHLIMMER BESTIMMER XXX]

Verilligo, on 23 February 2018 - 06:39 AM, said:

He's saying he doesn't care about the heat management stat because the heat management stat is effectively meaningless. It can help you get a rough idea of how the mech operates, but there are a lot of factors that the stat itself doesn't accurately reflect. It's generally more meaningful when dealing with laser vom to look at the number of heat sinks you have equipped so you can get an idea of your cooling rate and max heat load.

If you don't need the range of the ER, then you might very well fight better overall using the cooler lasers. Like when it comes to WHM laser vom, you're pairing LL with ERML. For that build you want to be getting into relatively close range anyway so that your ERML are effective. In that case, you're going to have a better time with the standard LL rather than the ERLL. I can practically fire 3 LL all day with 20 DHS, but I cannot say the same for ERLL. I'm not opposed to the standard LL getting a small heat reduction, but it's not like the weapon system itself is terrible right now.

quote shr84:
0,01 additional heat management for 4xErLL
(compared to 4xLL) is laughable.
A heat efficient mech starts at 2,00 heat management, thats 200 times 0,01

that fact still remains.looking at the numbers it shoudnt make much a difference if you use LL or ErLL.
To be honest i didnt checked that in training grounds.Instead i trusted the numbers PGI provided in the client

Edit: maybie i just dont get the point oO?

Edited by SHRedo, 07 April 2018 - 12:41 PM.

[LordNothing]

Samial, on 21 February 2018 - 05:00 PM, said:

Seriously how do you play with 1.07 heat you can't manage that in a large battle you must constantly be over heating..

1.3 is average imo..

depends. it wont be winning any brawls or moderate range skirmishes, especially if you are by yourself. for ranged trades its just fine, poke, alpha and cool. when used by a team with coordination its quite deadly, at least until the enemy figures out that they are all erll boats and brings its brawlers to bear down on them.

[Khobai]

LL used to have shorter beam duration than ERLL for a reason

but they made the beam durations the same for no good reason.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Yosharian, on 22 February 2018 - 06:58 PM, said:

Do you understand? If my weapon uses less heat than yours but cools down faster, our net heat usage is similar.

I have to say I don't fully follow.

Only relevant stats is DPS and DPH.

If a weapon like ERL has long duration and long cooldown, it doesn't make it better, it makes it worse. Stats like heat per second is irrelevant because the objective of gameplay is not to produce heat, it's to deal damage until a enemy mech can take no more.


I might favour ERL on pure builds over LL but when you have other weapons of midrange then LL works better due to it's better heat efficiency and the fact that you are aiming to get closer to enemy than ERL range.

Edited by Teer Kerensky, 07 April 2018 - 01:42 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

Just be glad neither is the CERLL.