57 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

So, what if we made MGs deal more tangible damage against armor, but less critical damage/less critical chance?

Discuss.

[Khobai]

thats a straight nerf to machine guns

making machine guns do more damage to armor is pointless since machine guns are mostly fired into locations that are completely stripped of armor already


do we really need to nerf machine guns? no we really dont.

if the problem is the piranha with 12 machine guns, then nerf the piranha. not every mech that uses machine guns. a viper with only 4 machine guns doesnt need to be nerfed because of the piranha.

give the pirahna a +5% machine gun rate of fire quirk for example. so its machine guns fire 5% slower.

Edited by Khobai, 27 February 2018 - 04:12 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 27 February 2018 - 04:00 PM, said:

thats a straight nerf to machine guns

since machine guns are mostly fired into locations that are completely stripped of armor already

I don't think you get the idea of the tweak at all. It's basically to make it so that MGs are much more effective in dealing with armor. Is it really hard for you to grasp changes that could very well change how a weapon is used? You need to be more open minded and critical.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 27 February 2018 - 04:00 PM, said:

thats a straight nerf to machine guns

making machine guns do more damage to armor is pointless since machine guns are mostly fired into locations that are completely stripped of armor already

The reason for that behavior is because the anti-armor damage is weak.

Also, keep in mind that anti-armor weapons are useful both when a mech is fresh and when a mech is exposed, they don't have to wait for someone else to peel open the outer layers for them. More and more mechs are getting armor quirks instead of structure, so that adds further value to anti-armor damage.

Khobai, on 27 February 2018 - 04:00 PM, said:

give the pirahna a +5% machine gun rate of fire quirk for example. so its machine guns fire 5% slower.

That's a buff dude. You mean -5%, not +5%. Also it would probably have to be at least 10% to have an impact.

[Khobai]

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I don't think you get the idea of the tweak at all. It's basically to make it so that MGs are much more effective in dealing with armor. Is it really hard for you to grasp changes that could very well change how a weapon is used? You need to be more open minded and critical.

but the whole point of machine guns is to destroy structure

making it better at destroying armor but worse at destroying structure is a nerf

because you normally dont fire machine guns into locations with armor in the first place

the machine gun is a specialized structure killing weapon. thats its whole thing. taking that away and making it more like every other weapon is silly.

why do you want to take away what makes the machine gun different from other weapons?

Quote

That's a buff dude. You mean -5%, not +5%. Also it would probably have to be at least 10% to have an impact.

yes obviously I meant a 5% slower rate of fire. So the interval between shots is .105 instead of .1.

and no 10% is too high. you cant go higher than a 7% penalty really. or you defeat the purpose of having 12 hardpoints instead of only 11 hardpoints.

the point is you do not need to nerf EVERY SINGLE MECH THAT USES MACHINE GUNS just because the pirahna is too good. that is a ridiculous kneejerk reaction that I would expect from PGI but not the players.

Edited by Khobai, 27 February 2018 - 04:34 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 27 February 2018 - 04:16 PM, said:

no +5%

higher cooldown is a slower rate of fire

Machine Guns don't have a cooldown. They have a rate of fire. Cooldown =/= RoF.

[Khobai]

Quote

Machine Guns don't have a cooldown. They have a rate of fire. Cooldown =/= RoF.

I understand that. I said rate of fire.

"give the pirahna a +5% machine gun rate of fire quirk for example. so its machine guns fire 5% slower."

but yes to clarify I mean increasing the rate of fire from .1 to .105 so the dps is decreased by 5%.

you understood what I meant anyway.

Edited by Khobai, 27 February 2018 - 04:27 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 27 February 2018 - 04:25 PM, said:

I understand that. I said rate of fire.

"give the pirahna a +5% machine gun rate of fire quirk for example. so its machine guns fire 5% slower."

The current RoF is 10 bullets per second. +5% of that means you'd now shoot 10.5 bullets per second.

10.5 > 10, it's a buff.

Higher rate of fire is better. You're still treating RoF the same as Cooldown, it's not.

Edited by FupDup, 27 February 2018 - 04:31 PM.

[Mystere]

Why do people insist on making all weapons the same instead of preserving their uniqueness? <smh>

MGs --> reduce critical damage
LRMs --> eliminate IDF

[Khobai]

Quote

The current RoF is 10 bullets per second. +5% of that means you'd now shoot 10.5 bullets per second.

10.5 > 10, it's a buff.

Higher rate of fire is better.

im talking about the interval between shots being increased from .1 to .105

again you knew what I meant

[LordNothing]

the light and the standard should totally take on different areas. being the same tonnage they need the same balance, with the light getting more structure damage with almost no armor damage it should perhaps be less good at critting than the standard. the standard now would do less structure damage, with maybe 30% going to armor and would be better at critting. the hmg now needs to be terrible at critting at all and needs to be a pure dps weapon. equal structure and armor damage, about 50% better than the balance point between the light and standard, but getting a very low crit chance.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 27 February 2018 - 04:31 PM, said:

im talking about the interval between shots being increased from .1 to .105

again you knew what I meant

Machine Guns don't have a mechanic to dictate the interval between shots. They have RoF to dictate the number of bullets per second.

<Weapon id="1209" name="ClanMachineGun" HardpointAliases="Ballistic,MachineGun,ClanMachineGun," faction="Clan">
    <Loc nameTag="@ClanMachineGun" descTag="@ClanMachineGun_desc" iconTag="StoreIcons\ClanMachineGun.dds"/>
    <WeaponStats Health="3.5" slots="1" type="Ballistic" projectileclass="" numFiring="1" damage="0.1" heatdamage="0" impulse="0.001" heat="0.0" cooldown="0.0" ammoType="ClanMachineGunAmmo" ammoPerShot="1" tons="0.25" duration="-1.0" lifetime="1.0" speed="100" volleydelay="0" maxheight="0" rof="10.0" spread="0.84" maxDepth="10.0" critDamMult="8.0" critChanceIncrease="0.06,0.03,0.01"/>
    <Ranges>
	  <Range start="0" damageModifier="1.0" interpolationToNextRange="linear"/>
	  <Range start="130.0" damageModifier="1.0" interpolationToNextRange="linear"/>
	  <Range start="260.0" damageModifier="0" interpolationToNextRange="linear"/>
    </Ranges>

Higher RoF means more bullets and thus more DPS.

[Tarogato]

Oi, gimme some numbers for sake of example. Like... new MG base DPS, and new MG crit DPS.

Khobai, on 27 February 2018 - 04:16 PM, said:

no i mean +5%. higher cooldown means a slower rate of fire. so if the machine gun fires at .105 instead of .1 thats a nerf.

For weapons with a RoF stat (which is just RACs and MGs I believe), their damage output is equivalent to damage * RoF.

So +5% RoF is a buff.


RoF ≠ Cooldown.

[Khobai]

Quote

For weapons with a RoF stat (which is just RACs and MGs I believe), their damage output is equivalent to damage * RoF.

So +5% RoF is a buff.


RoF ≠ Cooldown.

jesus what are you the syntax police.

WHO CARES

its OBVIOUS what I meant. I clarified it 3 times.

when I used keywords like penalty and nerf it should occurred to you that it clearly wasnt a buff.

its called contextual reading.

the fact you would rather argue about this than actually discuss nerfing machine guns is hilarious.

Quote

Machine Guns don't have a mechanic to dictate the interval between shots. They have RoF to dictate the number of bullets per second.

but they still have an interval between shots. the interval is .1 seconds.

correct you would simply change the RoF from 10 to 9.5 in the XML

but that would increase the firing interval accordingly from .1 to .105

Again you knew what I meant. arguing about it is ridiculous.

Edited by Khobai, 27 February 2018 - 04:46 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 27 February 2018 - 04:16 PM, said:

but the whole point of machine guns is to destroy structure

making it better at destroying armor but worse at destroying structure is a nerf

because you normally dont fire machine guns into locations with armor in the first place

Again, the point of the tweak was is to make the MGs far more effective against armor, and for the MGs to be fired into locations WITH armor in the god ******* damn first place.

Are you really that narrow minded? It's only a nerf it you still keep using the MG that way.

Khobai, on 27 February 2018 - 04:16 PM, said:

the machine gun is a specialized structure killing weapon. thats its whole thing. taking that away and making it more like every other weapon is silly.

why do you want to take away what makes the machine gun different from other weapons?

Because the crit-system isn't really that useful to begin with. Sure lets make MG unique, but not so unique that it's practically useless at most other builds than just boating them.

FupDup, on 27 February 2018 - 04:16 PM, said:

The reason for that behavior is because the anti-armor damage is weak.

This, just ******* THIS.

Tarogato, on 27 February 2018 - 04:34 PM, said:

Oi, gimme some numbers for sake of example. Like... new MG base DPS, and new MG crit DPS.

IDK, but lets say:

LMG: 1.4 DPS
MG: 2 DPS
HMG: 2.8 DPS

Crit Chance to: 31%, 17%, 4% to 16%, 8%, 2%?

OR

Crit Mult:

IS-LMG: 5x
IS-MG: 4x
IS-HMG: 3x
C-LMG: 4x
C-MG: 3x
C-HMG: 2x

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 February 2018 - 04:49 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

The reason for that behavior is because the anti-armor damage is weak.

working as intended.

its supposed to be used vs structure not armor.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 27 February 2018 - 04:42 PM, said:

working as intended.

its supposed to be used vs structure not armor.

And the change intended is that it's supposed to be more useful against armor, are you that dense to understand? It's a role change, and if you think that it's a nerf cause you're so thick to use it against armor with the changes, that's your issue.

[Khobai]

Quote

And the change intended is that it's supposed to be more useful against armor, are you that dense to understand? It's a role change, and if you think that it's a nerf cause you're so thick to use it against armor with the changes, that's your issue.

but its not supposed to be useful against armor

its supposed to crush structure

the only one thats dense here is you. you dont understand weapon roles.


right now the machine gun does like x1 damage to armor and x1.9 or so damage to structure

your idea is to make it more like x1.2 damage vs armor and x1.4 damage to structure or something stupid like that

you have just significantly nerfed the weapon for everyone who only fired mgs into locations without armor already.


and for what reason? why does my 4 mg viper need to be nerfed? OMG 4 MG VIPER META OP.

if the problem is the piranha. nerf the piranha.

Edited by Khobai, 27 February 2018 - 04:52 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 27 February 2018 - 04:47 PM, said:

but its not supposed to be useful against armor

its supposed to crush structure

the only one thats dense here is you. you dont understand weapon roles.

No, you're the only one too dense to understand that the concept is about CHANGING weapon roles, so what if it's currently supposed to crush structure?

The change is meant so that it's more useful against armor!

It's not that i don't know it, it's just it's not as valuable.

Again, you're the dense one, and it's a testable, repeatable, and demonstrable fact. And the fact that you can't grasp the role change thereby thinking of it as a nerf is proof of it.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 February 2018 - 04:52 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

No, you're the only one too dense to understand that the concept is about CHANGING weapon roles, so what if it's currently supposed to crush structure?

changing it so its more like every other weapon does not make it different from other weapons.

thats the exact opposite of giving weapons different roles.

Quote

The change is meant so that it's more useful against armor!

but its already not used against armor. its used against breached locations that have no armor.

so why do I need it to be more useful against something I dont use it against anyway? while making it weaker at what its actually used it for: killing structure?

that makes no sense. youve just killed the unique role of the weapon. made it more like every other weapon. and nerfed every mech that relies on machine guns to finish off mechs with breached armor.

if you want to destroy armor there are other weapons for that purpose. machine guns destroy structure. they are a specialized weapon for that purpose.

Edited by Khobai, 27 February 2018 - 05:00 PM.