136 replies to this topic

[Diablobo]

Nema Nabojiv, on 25 February 2018 - 02:03 PM, said:

Oh SHI. I sometimes cant into english. I meant make them shoot fasta of course.

I get it. Sometimes it's even confusing for native speakers. Cooldowns are a weird topic. LOL

Edited by Diablobo, 25 February 2018 - 04:01 PM.

[Bombast]

Diablobo, on 25 February 2018 - 01:56 PM, said:

We need the exact opposite. The smaller launchers need more reason for their existence. Isn't the reason we give the smaller SRM and LRM launchers faster cooldowns so that smaller mechs can have decent DPS? An ATM 3 falls off a cliff in DPS numbers compared to a 12, and the same goes for the MRMs.

Actually, the MRM10 has the best damage per ton of any MRM launcher. The problem is that pretty much any mech that can boat enough of them to matter should probably be using SRMs instead.

The MRM20 is garbage, but that's a problem with how the TT rationed weight. Anything done to fix the MRM20 would be weird, and would not line up with your dream of 'logical' stats.

The same is true of ATMs - The top damage per ton launcher is the ATM3. The ATM6, like the MRM20, sits in a weird spot tonnage wise, but again, any fix would not line up with your request.

[Diablobo]

Bombast, on 25 February 2018 - 02:09 PM, said:

Actually, the MRM10 has the best damage per ton of any MRM launcher. The problem is that pretty much any mech that can boat enough of them to matter should probably be using SRMs instead.

The MRM20 is garbage, but that's a problem with how the TT rationed weight. Anything done to fix the MRM20 would be weird, and would not line up with your dream of 'logical' stats.

The same is true of ATMs - The top damage per ton launcher is the ATM3. The ATM6, like the MRM20, sits in a weird spot tonnage wise, but again, any fix would not line up with your request.

Damage per ton is not the issue. Damage per second is. An ATM 3 has 1/4 the DPS of an ATM12, and the same goes for MRM10 and 40.

edit: the MRMs are not quite as bad as the MRM 40 has a slightly longer cooldown, but the MRM10 and 30 are the same.

Edited by Diablobo, 25 February 2018 - 04:09 PM.

[Bombast]

Diablobo, on 25 February 2018 - 02:15 PM, said:

Damage per ton is not the issue. Damage per second is. An ATM 3 has 1/4 the DPS of an ATM12, and the same goes for MRM10 and 40.

Out of curiosity, where exactly do you place you 'golden' ratios at, and what method would you put in place to prevent heavier mechs from simply boating the smaller launchers, negating the 'Light Mechs DPS bonus?'

[Diablobo]

Bombast, on 25 February 2018 - 02:23 PM, said:

Out of curiosity, where exactly do you place you 'golden' ratios at, and what method would you put in place to prevent heavier mechs from simply boating the smaller launchers, negating the 'Light Mechs DPS bonus?'

I'm not the one with the server numbers, or whatever arcane formula it is they use for balance- assuming there even is one.

All I know is that an ATM3 should not have the same cooldown as an ATM12 with ONE QUARTER OF THE DPS. That is ludicrous.

Edited by Diablobo, 25 February 2018 - 02:26 PM.

[Bombast]

Diablobo, on 25 February 2018 - 02:26 PM, said:

I'm not the one with the server numbers, or whatever arcane formula it is they use for balance- assuming there is even one.

All I know is that an ATM3 should not have the same cooldown as an ATM12 with ONE QUARTER OF THE DPS. That is ludicrous.

Not particularly compelling.

Can't really find it in my heart to go to the mat on this one. Low tube count MRM/ATM builds are inherently useless, the mechanics of both weapon systems heavily favoring mass boating. MRMs are basically pointless below 30 tubes, and at that point 'fractional DPS comparison' is meaningless since you're running a big rack (Or boating enough MRM10s to equal a big rack) anyway, and because of how ATMs interact with AMS, running below an ATM12 equivalent may as well be pissing into the wind. So what does it matter?

[Diablobo]

Bombast, on 25 February 2018 - 02:30 PM, said:

Not particularly compelling.

Can't really find it in my heart to go to the mat on this one. Low tube count MRM/ATM builds are inherently useless, the mechanics of both weapon systems heavily favoring mass boating. MRMs are basically pointless below 30 tubes, and at that point 'fractional DPS comparison' is meaningless since you're running a big rack (Or boating enough MRM10s to equal a big rack) anyway, and because of how ATMs interact with AMS, running below an ATM12 equivalent may as well be pissing into the wind. So what does it matter?

Having a weapon system that doesn't follow the same rules or principles of the rest of the weapons already in place breaks the system, or it just means the weapons are broken. They make a big show of normalizing and balancing weapons, but then they bring these systems into the game and expect us to ignore all the rest? This is a game of numbers, and if they want to give all the ATMs and MRMs the same numbers, then they can throw the rest of their balance and normalizing ideas out the window as well. Hypocrisy and logical inconsistency are some of the most egregious flaws in any framework, whether it's legal, political, or technical. Let's just get rid of the mech lab if they want to throw out the numbers.

[Bombast]

Diablobo, on 25 February 2018 - 03:05 PM, said:

Having a weapon system that doesn't follow the same rules or principles of the rest of the weapons already in place breaks the system, or it just means the weapons are broken. They make a big show of normalizing and balancing weapons, but then they bring these systems into the game and expect us to ignore all the rest? This is a game of numbers, and if they want to give all the ATMs and MRMs the same numbers, then they can throw the rest of their balance and normalizing ideas out the window as well. Hypocrisy and logical inconsistency are some of the most egregious flaws in any framework, whether it's legal, political, or technical. Let's just get rid of the mech lab if they want to throw out the numbers.

That's just gibberish.

You've yet to properly establish why these missile systems should be 'normalized.' 'Because the rest are' isn't a persuasive argument. Perhaps it being confusing would be, but apart from you, everyone else seems to get it.

[Diablobo]

As for the ATMs being useless under the 12 count, I have run a Kit fox with the 4 ER med and an ATM6 and gotten 6 kills and 962 damage. I didn't get all of that with the lasers, I can assure you that.

[Khobai]

Quote

As for the ATMs being useless under the 12 count, I have run a Kit fox with the 4 ER med and an ATM6 and gotten 6 kills and 962 damage. I didn't get all of that with the lasers, I can assure you that.

the smaller launchers are only useless if people are running AMS

obviously no one was running AMS or you never wouldve done 962 damage

Quote

All I know is that an ATM3 should not have the same cooldown as an ATM12 with ONE QUARTER OF THE DPS. That is ludicrous.

why is it ludicrous?

the ATM3 has one quarter of the DPS because it weighs 1.5 tons while an ATM12 weighs 7 tons.

expecting the ATM3 to get DPS disproportional to its tonnage is whats ludicrous.

the way their cooldowns are now is exactly how it should be. It allows you to mix launchers of different sizes but still fire them in sync with eachother.

but ATMs do need more missile health because AMS is too good against them.

Edited by Khobai, 25 February 2018 - 03:56 PM.

[Diablobo]

Khobai, on 25 February 2018 - 03:38 PM, said:

why is it ludicrous?

the ATM3 has one quarter of the DPS because it weighs 1.5 tons while an ATM12 weighs 7 tons.

expecting the ATM3 to get DPS disproportional to its tonnage is whats ludicrous.

the way it is now is exactly how it should be.

but ATMs do need more missile health because AMS is too good against them.

The tonnages of the SRMs and LRMs have the same tonnage scaling as the ATMs and MRMs, but they get no DPS penalty.

SRM2s do not do 1/3 the DPS of an SRM6, and LRM5s do not do 1/4 the DPS of an LRM20.

If ATMs and MRMs are going to all have the same cooldown, then the SRMs and LRMs need either have an explanation as to why they have boosted DPS numbers or they need to have proportional DPS numbers as well. Saying that's just the way we want it is not an explanation, it's just arbitrary and inconsistent with the very system they put in place. Either they follow their own rules, or don't bother with any whatsoever.

Edited by Diablobo, 25 February 2018 - 05:43 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 25 February 2018 - 03:38 PM, said:

the smaller launchers are only useless if people are running AMS

obviously no one was running AMS or you never wouldve done 962 damage



why is it ludicrous?

the ATM3 has one quarter of the DPS because it weighs 1.5 tons while an ATM12 weighs 7 tons.

expecting the ATM3 to get DPS disproportional to its tonnage is whats ludicrous.

the way their cooldowns are now is exactly how it should be.

but ATMs do need more missile health because AMS is too good against them.

Two things.

1. Hardpoints, they're pretty important. Tonnage isn't the only opportunity cost. Mechs usually have to give up some energy and/or ballistic hardpoints to get more missile hardpoints. The problem is that having missiles normalized means that having all of those extra hardpoints might not translate into any advantage over the variants with only 1-3 missile slots since you'll end up using up all your tonnage on big launchers anyways. Losing energy/ballistics for more missiles should have some kind of tangible benefit.

The only exception here is SRMs, since even the biggest SRM launcher packs less power than the big launchers of other missile types.

Also, in some cases of quirks having a small number of big launchers is directly superior to the same tube count achieved with a bunch of small launchers. Namely this is the Mad Dog Prime and H, you gain a lot of durability and firepower quirks. Having a bunch of LRM10's or 5's on the other variants will not have these quirks. One choice is clearly better than the other.

2. Not all launchers have the same damage per ton ratio. For example, double MRM20 is pretty drastically inferior to a single MRM40 despite the slightly better cooldown and spread on the former (not worth the extra tonnage and hardpoint). If we un-normalize cooldowns and spread we can adjust for cases like that.

Edited by FupDup, 25 February 2018 - 04:02 PM.

[Khobai]

ATM3s dont need to be buffed because of lack of missile hardpoints. the number of missile hardpoints needs to be increased because of ATM3s.

currently if youre using ATM3s over ATM12s its not because you lack hardpoints. its because you lack tonnage or crit slots. but if you have the free tonnage or crits youre always better off using a bigger launcher. And there just arnt any clan mechs that can spam like x8 ATM3s to make ATM3 spam worth it.

Quote

Not all launchers have the same damage per ton ratio

ATM3s already have a better damage per ton ratio than ATM12s

they have a tighter spread too

boating x4 ATM3s or x2 ATM6s is already better than x1 ATM12.

the problem is clans dont have any mechs with enough missile hardpoints to make ATM3 spam work. thats what needs to be fixed.

of course youre going to be better off taking bigger launchers when you cant spam smaller launchers. Its the same with LRM5s, LRM5s arnt worth using unless you can spam the !@#$ out of them.

clans need a mech with 8+ missile hardpoints to spam ATM3s. Thats what holding the ATM3 back.

Edited by Khobai, 25 February 2018 - 04:22 PM.

[Diablobo]

Khobai, on 25 February 2018 - 04:03 PM, said:

hardpoints doesnt make sense as a reason

if youre using ATM3s over ATM12s its not because you lack hardpoints.

its because you lack tonnage or crit slots.



ATM3s already have a better damage per ton ratio than ATM12s

they have a tighter spread too

boating x4 ATM3s or x2 ATM6s is already better than x1 ATM12.

the problem is clans dont have any mechs with enough missile hardpoints to make ATM3 spam work. thats what needs to be fixed.

of course youre going to be better off taking bigger launchers when you cant spam smaller launchers. Its the same with LRM5s, LRM5s arnt worth using unless you can spam the !@#$ out of them.

So a heavy or assault that has 3 missile hardpoints instead of one should have no benefit? That's most certainly not the case for LRMs and SRMs.

Instead of adding more missile hardpoints for the clans and messing up the SRM and LRM situation, how about reducing the smaller ATM cooldowns? Much more simple, wouldn't you say?

Edited by Diablobo, 25 February 2018 - 04:21 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

Diablobo, on 25 February 2018 - 02:26 PM, said:

I'm not the one with the server numbers, or whatever arcane formula it is they use for balance- assuming there even is one.

All I know is that an ATM3 should not have the same cooldown as an ATM12 with ONE QUARTER OF THE DPS. That is ludicrous.

And why not? It's one quarter the tonnage. What I'd like to see them do is bump it's GH number way up. If we can throw 24 ATMs with two ATM 12's, you should be able to do the same with eight ATM 3's. Likewise ATM 6's, you hit GH way before you hit the same number of tubes fired. It's not like they fire any faster.

[Khobai]

Quote

So a heavy or assault that has 3 missile hardpoints instead of one should have no benefit? That's most certainly not the case for LRMs and SRMs.

but you dont see clan mechs spamming CSRM2s or CLRM5s. so obviously making the smaller launchers fire faster isnt enough to make people use them, because thats not what they need.

the problem isnt that the smaller launchers dont fire fast enough.

the problem is that there arnt any clan mechs with enough missile hardpoints to spam enough of the smaller launchers to make it worthwhile to use them.

when missile hardpoints are limited, larger launchers are better.

Quote

And why not? It's one quarter the tonnage. What I'd like to see them do is bump it's GH number way up. If we can throw 24 ATMs with two ATM 12's, you should be able to do the same with eight ATM 3's. Likewise ATM 6's, you hit GH way before you hit the same number of tubes fired. It's not like they fire any faster.

Agreed. higher ghost heat limit. and more mechs with 8+ missile hardpoints.

the problem is theres currently no clan mech that can use x8 ATM3s.

6 missile hardpoints is the most any clan mech has.

it wouldnt hurt to add a maddog variant with 8 missile hardpoints for example.

Edited by Khobai, 25 February 2018 - 05:10 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 25 February 2018 - 05:03 PM, said:

you dont see clan mechs spamming SRM2s or LRM5s

the problem is not that smaller launchers need to be better

the problem is that there arnt enough hardpoints to spam smaller launchers

Clan mechs used to spam LRM5s until their spread and heat got nerfed. After that the LRM5 became pretty rare.

The SRM2 isn't spammed even on Clan mechs with 6+ missile hardpoints and never really has been. It really only sees serious use on the Locust, which isn't even the best use for a Locust anyways.

[Khobai]

Quote

The SRM2 isn't spammed even on Clan mechs with 6+ missile hardpoints and never really has been. It really only sees serious use on the Locust, which isn't even the best use for a Locust anyways.

exactly my point.

SRM2s might get used on a mech with 12 missile hardpoints

but they will never get used on a mech with 6 missile hardpoints.

for some reason PGI is stingy with missile hardpoints

they give us mechs with 12+ energy or 12+ ballistic

but not 12+ missile

those smaller launchers are only good if you can excessively spam them. And right now we cant.


We need more missile hardpoints. Mechs like the Maddog and Catapult should both have more than 6M hardpoints. They should have like 8-10 missile hardpoints. Would be nice to see one or two 12 missile hardpoint mechs too. They could add the Naga and Longbow and give them variants with 12 missile hardpoints. PGI needs to stop being so afraid of the x12 SRM2 meta.

Edited by Khobai, 25 February 2018 - 05:23 PM.

[Diablobo]

PGI only gives the 12 energy and ballistic hardpoints for micro lasers and MGs. They have little to do with missile launchers. We don't need to boat small launchers as much as we just need to reduce their cooldowns.

[Diablobo]

The very fact that you acknowledge that they need to be boated to be effective only shows that they are broken in the first place. Instead of upping the hardpoints, just lower the cooldowns. It's not for the boats, it's for the mechs that have 2-4 hardpoints. Why are they left out?