478 replies to this topic

[Nightbird]

Bump to provide visual math for this thread: https://mwomercs.com...ale-difficulty/

[Meep Meep]

Are you taking into account the actual volume of each mech though? Whilst the atlas and commando share a similar layout and shape its obvious the atlas is thicker and larger in every component. Which means that if you visually scale each part to the same size the atlas parts will have a larger internal volume than the commando.

[Nightbird]

I don't try to rescale an Atlas into a Commando or vice versa. I show how you mathematically scale an Atlas down to 25% of the volume, or a Commando up to 400% of the volume. I then place the re-scaled mech next to an actual Atlas or Commando and let your eyeballs do the rest.

[Meep Meep]

I understand what your math is doing and your reasoning but my point is that maybe they scaled by internal volume on a per mech basis and not using a global tonnage standard as you are?

[Nightbird]

No it's pretty clear that they did volume = x^2 instead of x^3. I'm not the only one that came to this conclusion, you're welcome to search for "mwo volumetric" on google to find the other threads.

[Meep Meep]

Nightbird, on 01 July 2021 - 03:21 PM, said:

No it's pretty clear that they did volume = x^2 instead of x^3. I'm not the only one that came to this conclusion, you're welcome to search for "mwo volumetric" on google to find the other threads.

Sure. Was this confirmed by the devs or is it player investigated? Not saying the players are wrong just curious.

[The6thMessenger]

You know, I remember some people arguing "different density of materials", so the volumetric approach ain't valid. But I have some thoughts on that:

> Why can't we just assume simmilar materials that result in simmilar density? I mean whatever happened to standardization?

> Also, isn't that it's what Russ and Co insists and professes? If it's not volumetric-scaling and is actually density-based scaling, why call it such? Why not just call chairs with four legs "tripods"?

[Khobai]

why would an assault have a different density in materials as a light? its made of the same structure and armor and proportionally more of it. its not like assaults are hollow or full of styrofoam.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

In the Lore ,the Mech build around his specific Weapon Systems , and you not can easy change a AC5 form Definace against a AC5 from a other Factory or LRM 10...with the mechlab the problem come ...the Mech must have enough Space for Weaponssystems with very differnet Spaces and Mechanism...AC so with Ammotransport system have the same Density and Space ,like 3 MGs ? or a LRM 10 ? and the most in BT is nonsense ...you never becomes 1000 LRM Missles in a Mech, with this in Mind, you can say ,all has the same Density and Space .BT drops with all the Trash Novel Authors and Ideas his own ideas from a little Realistic away.So its only the visual aesthetical Aspect a Fact for Sizing you seeing thats the Arm from a Mech in the same Weight class ,with the same Armor has very other Dimensions as by a othermech ,and now thats a 65t Catapult is a Dwarf and a 75t Black Knight (only 10 t Difference ) is Tall like a 18m Assault.

The younger Player will Bigger Mechs , more Pacific Rim/Godzilla Style ...

[Khobai]

I assume all AC5s would use the same exact industry standards regardless of manufacturer.

I mean we have that today in industry. it stands to reason they would still have that in 1000 years.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

no standards in BT (and not same calibers)

and no Weapons thats can hit a 12 m Tall target in more as 2000m

thats the Problem for Repairing in the Field, and next problem the Engines , now you can take a Fiat Engine in the same Place a a Engine from a Catapillar or 18 Wheeler the magical Spaceadoption for each Size
thats the Big Aspect from the Clans ...standard Weapons ,and modularsystems.

And many today not standard ... Medical Screws for example ...each Factory has his own system and you can not delete the Screws after Operations when you not have the Special Tool from this Factory.

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 02 July 2021 - 02:31 AM.

[Meep Meep]

Khobai, on 02 July 2021 - 02:16 AM, said:

I assume all AC5s would use the same exact industry standards regardless of manufacturer.

I mean we have that today in industry. it stands to reason they would still have that in 1000 years.

Much advanced technology was lost during this games timeline and the different houses all had their own takes on it and their own factories to produce it. So while different houses might use a similar class of mech and weapons how they built it might vary wildly. Houses also tended to come up with 'house specialty' weapons too. Much like in our real world each nation has their own take on how to make rifles and aircraft and other military hardware that isn't compatible with each other but does more or less the same thing.

[Khobai]

Meep Meep, on 02 July 2021 - 03:00 AM, said:

Much advanced technology was lost during this games timeline and the different houses all had their own takes on it and their own factories to produce it. So while different houses might use a similar class of mech and weapons how they built it might vary wildly. Houses also tended to come up with 'house specialty' weapons too. Much like in our real world each nation has their own take on how to make rifles and aircraft and other military hardware that isn't compatible with each other but does more or less the same thing.

industry standards arnt advanced technology though

its basically just the government saying all manufacturers have to design their AC5s so they all fit in a specific sized hardpoint

[Meep Meep]

Khobai, on 03 July 2021 - 05:52 AM, said:

industry standards arnt advanced technology though

its basically just the government saying all manufacturers have to design their AC5s so they all fit in a specific sized hardpoint

And how pray tell do you get the different houses to all cooperate on 'government imposed industry standards'? Do you think house jade would take very kindly to say house steiner sending over a diplomat and demanding they standardize all mech production in their factories to match their own? Each house is their own nation and each nation has their own take on the technology and how to produce it.

[FupDup]

A few possibilities I can think of:

A. Building weapons to similar standards can make it way easier for different customer bases to make the switch to your stuff vs. having to buy whole new mechs and stuff to accommodate it. You can see a similar thing with Nerf competitors designing their blasters to be compatible with Nerf darts and Nerf magazines (and vice-versa).

B. Designing your stuff similar to other stuff can make it easier for you to salvage enemy tech and make use of it yourself (this applies both ways though so kind of a double-edged sword).

[Khobai]

Meep Meep, on 03 July 2021 - 11:23 AM, said:

And how pray tell do you get the different houses to all cooperate on 'government imposed industry standards'? Do you think house jade would take very kindly to say house steiner sending over a diplomat and demanding they standardize all mech production in their factories to match their own? Each house is their own nation and each nation has their own take on the technology and how to produce it.

Granted you might see differences in standards between Great Houses. But I would imagine all of the factories within Steiner space are following Steiner's industry standards. Because they all want contracts with Steiner and the only way they could get those contracts is to comply with those standards.

I would say its a good bet that all AC20s made in steiner space would all fit steiner mechs. Because all the AC20 factories in steiner space would want contracts with house steiner. And its likely house steiner has some pretty strict laws on exporting weapons to other great houses

An AC20 made in house kurita may not necessarily fit a steiner mech hardpoint though. Thats true. But thats mostly a problem for mercenary companies since they would be the ones most likely to mismatch weapons and mechs from different houses like that. since they mix and match a lot of stuff from the black market and from whatever house theyre under contract to that will sell them weapons at the time.

MWO doesnt have different manufacturers of weapons so its not really relevant to the volumetric scaling discussion anyway. Although it would be neat if there were different versions of weapons from different manufacturers. But they cant even balance the current weapons lol.

Edited by Khobai, 03 July 2021 - 12:08 PM.

[Tesunie]

On argument involving switching weapons, components and such... Mechlab is mostly part of a game structure. In lore, with exclusion to Omnimechs, Battlemechs were very difficult and expensive to alter. It was mostly left to the realm of princes, the very rich, or Solaris (typically funded by companies wanting to field test new stuff on the cheap).

So, for the game aspect of volumetric scaling, some things will have to be assumed to "be of equal volume to space (density)". Otherwise, we'd have to dig into as much lore to find mechs that are really compressed (like the Spider which is so small it has no ejection system) or ones that are extremely roomy (like the Orion, praised and loved by techs everywhere for it's large and roomy spaces inside the mech making repairs easier).

Then, on top of a more accurate volumetric scaling, some mechs may need to be adjusted for game play balance. In the end, this is a game to have fun. Things tend to be more fun when everything is viable against others (especially being PvP).

I think getting scale correct is important, as much for a "true scale" as for "game balance". Between these two, there should be some room for gives and takes.

[PocketYoda]

Khobai, on 01 July 2021 - 09:53 PM, said:

why would an assault have a different density in materials as a light? its made of the same structure and armor and proportionally more of it. its not like assaults are hollow or full of styrofoam.

Lights do carry less armor.. because they are physically smaller. Also the materials are all different on different mechs.. yes its splitting hairs somewhat but imo they should just rescale all mechs back to lore.. and at least be accurate.. yes light mechs will be a tough mech to play but think of them as small mediums mechs, aren't all these pros suppose to be amazingly badass..

They say so on here daily.

Edited by MechaGnome, 04 July 2021 - 06:39 PM.

[Nightbird]

Don't underestimate the allure of standards, following them allows better compatibility with other goods and services which helps with adoption and sales.

In history, the width of two horses was used for the width between carriage wheels, to the width of train tracks, to car width, to freight containers used for ships. It all comes compatibility with two horse butts.

In BT all tech splintered from Star League tech which is presumably standardized from being one organization and the lesser stuff produced by the great houses was directly intended to replace dwindling Star League parts after the fall.