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Division Thoughts


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#1 Popcat

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 03:29 PM

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Every ‘Mech variant in the game will be placed into 1 of 7 divisions based on their maxed out combat capabilities, so for example it will be possible to see a ‘Mech chassis have a variant in one division and another variant in another division.


Sorry if this has been brought up but I fund nothing in search.

I was just curious if there has been any more grapevine on this or if some of the longer term players had any thoughts about what it might mean for game balancing vs. unbalancing.

Thanks

#2 WrathOfDeadguy

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 03:35 PM

Likely it will mean that some variants will be laughably misranked and either dominate their respective divisions or else gather dust because they're too terribad to stand up to whatever burst kill build becomes the Solaris meta of choice.

Thus goeth the way of the dartboard, for ever and ever.

#3 EnochsBook

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 03:36 PM

IIRC, it was stated in the last podcast that PGI keeps close tabs on the in-game performance of all 'Mechs variants.
Presumably, these stats will be used to determine a chassis' division, which should be quite entertaining, because the community seems to disagree with PGI as to which 'Mech underperform and which ones are really good...

My personal opinion is that one should not expect the divion system to be remotely correct or make any sense right away. It's not a bad idea but it's going to need a lot of fine tuning.

#4 Y E O N N E

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 03:38 PM

View PostEnochsBook, on 11 March 2018 - 03:36 PM, said:

IIRC, it was stated in the last podcast that PGI keeps close tabs on the in-game performance of all 'Mechs variants.


Man, that's a dubious claim if I've ever seen one.

#5 DFM

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 03:48 PM

View PostEnochsBook, on 11 March 2018 - 03:36 PM, said:

IIRC, it was stated in the last podcast that PGI keeps close tabs on the in-game performance of all 'Mechs variants.
Presumably, these stats will be used to determine a chassis' division, which should be quite entertaining, because the community seems to disagree with PGI as to which 'Mech underperform and which ones are really good...

My personal opinion is that one should not expect the divion system to be remotely correct or make any sense right away. It's not a bad idea but it's going to need a lot of fine tuning.


As long as they tune it, this will work. It's going to cause issues no matter how they do it tbh. People are going to be salty because X mech is in Y tier, even though they get stomped in it every time they bring it out.

#6 Popcat

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 04:02 PM

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Thus goeth the way of the dartboard, for ever and ever.


Sorry for the ignorance what's that mean?

#7 Popcat

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 04:09 PM

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variants will be laughably misranked


One other thought do you think this is because the users are improperly using good mech's, The variety of possible builds or just PGI not knowing the mechs well?

#8 Y E O N N E

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 04:14 PM

View PostPopcat, on 11 March 2018 - 04:02 PM, said:


Sorry for the ignorance what's that mean?


It means PGI has a tendency to improperly tune and re-tune things to the point where it seems like they throw a dart at a board when determining the next change.

#9 Popcat

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 04:25 PM

Gotcha, like how faction play needs to be balanced at best and reworked at the worst but yet they are rolling out Solaris.

#10 Y E O N N E

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 04:42 PM

View PostPopcat, on 11 March 2018 - 04:25 PM, said:

Gotcha, like how faction play needs to be balanced at best and reworked at the worst but yet they are rolling out Solaris.


More like "Laser+Gauss on Deathstrike overperforming? Better nerf the Shadow Cat again!"

#11 Seranov

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 04:46 PM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 11 March 2018 - 04:42 PM, said:


More like "Laser+Gauss on Deathstrike overperforming? Better nerf the Shadow Cat again!"


Gauss Vomit is going to get absolutely rolled over in a 1v1 situation though, because it's so desperately heat-capped. Remember, it won't matter how good the mech is in 12v12, so the Deathstrike might actually be garbage in Solaris. I will try my double UAC20 one in there, though.

#12 FupDup

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 04:51 PM

View PostSeranov, on 11 March 2018 - 04:46 PM, said:

Gauss Vomit is going to get absolutely rolled over in a 1v1 situation though, because it's so desperately heat-capped. Remember, it won't matter how good the mech is in 12v12, so the Deathstrike might actually be garbage in Solaris. I will try my double UAC20 one in there, though.

PGI had better not use Solaris as the measuring stick for mech/weapon balance or else we're gonna have a bad time.

#13 WrathOfDeadguy

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 04:57 PM

^ What Yeonne said. The "Dartboard of Balance" is a bit of a meme around here.

View PostPopcat, on 11 March 2018 - 04:09 PM, said:


One other thought do you think this is because the users are improperly using good mech's, The variety of possible builds or just PGI not knowing the mechs well?


Some 'Mechs, like the ENF-5P and GHR-5J, have been bad from day one of their existence in game, but have been hit again and again with nerfs applied to the weapons they depend on, as when the global UAC jam chance and duration nerfs came down, or the LPL damage nerf, or ISLL burn duration nerf. Other times, they've been hit with specific nerfs, at the same time as other objectively superior 'Mechs filling the same niche got softer nerfs or even buffs.

Other 'Mechs, like the Timberwolf and Dire Wolf, were at one point the apex 'Mechs in their class, and received (at the time well-justified) variant-specific nerfs... which were not rolled back when power creep and successive balance passes rendered them obsolete compared to newer additions to the game.

It happens to weapons, too. IS small pulse has never been an OP or even a good weapon, except on the tiny handful of fast lights with enough hardpoints to boat it effectively (which, really, was a stable of two: the FS9-A and the LCT-1E)... but was nevertheless hit with a damage nerf when PGI rebalanced the medium and small lasers. Result? Nobody uses the thing anymore, because it isn't worth the tonnage even as a backup weapon.

Another example: the KDK-3 formed a meta around itself after the Kodiak's release, so PGI nerfed the weapons it used rather than just the specific overperforming variant, which affected every single 'Mech using UACs, including underperformers like the aforementioned ENF-5P, resulting in UACs being all but abandoned for months in favor of PPC+Gauss. Which, some months later, was also nerfed, resulting in the current laservomit/Gaussvomit meta.

Overall, balance is in a pretty good place, but on a case-by-case basis, it's wildly inconsistent, and since PGI plans to balance Solaris variant-by-variant, a lot of us are extremely skeptical that they'll get it right the first (or tenth) time around. We are, of course, open to the possibility of being pleasantly surprised, but we're too jaded by now to expect that we will be.

#14 Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 05:01 PM

View PostPopcat, on 11 March 2018 - 04:09 PM, said:

One other thought do you think this is because the users are improperly using good mech's, The variety of possible builds or just PGI not knowing the mechs well?


PGI balances based on averages of scores and stats rather than the potential stats of each mech. This means that while something like a Deathstrike with super alphas may be OP in certain situations and with good players, many players can't even manage to handle the gauss charge mechanics somehow. Many more players will use a great variant but run some bad build on it, I remember seeing a 2 LMG, 2 LRM20, 2 ERML Mad Cat MK2 build being posted as someone's best build on the steam forums.

So basically the game is technically perfectly balanced statistically from PGI's standpoint. This also is seen in situations where a good player decides to main a mech that is rarely used and then ends up skewing the mech's statistics. The Executioner and Shadow Cats are good examples of these where a few good players manage to rack up high scores on average in these chassis while generally they're so bad that no one ever uses them. And so we end up with situations where the Shadow Cat gets nerfed while the Deathstrike is performing averagely.

#15 Y E O N N E

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 05:07 PM

View PostSeranov, on 11 March 2018 - 04:46 PM, said:


Gauss Vomit is going to get absolutely rolled over in a 1v1 situation though, because it's so desperately heat-capped. Remember, it won't matter how good the mech is in 12v12, so the Deathstrike might actually be garbage in Solaris. I will try my double UAC20 one in there, though.


So far, though, the Deathstrike has shown itself to be rather competent in 1v1s.

So has the MKII-B.

#16 Khobai

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 05:15 PM

having 7 different divisions is laughable

its just another way for PGI to completely sidestep having to balance their game properly

like ghost heat.

this is ghost heat for mech balance.

View PostFupDup, on 11 March 2018 - 04:51 PM, said:

PGI had better not use Solaris as the measuring stick for mech/weapon balance or else we're gonna have a bad time.


pretty sure I heard PGI say in that podcast they were gonna rebalance the weapons around solaris.

and yes were going to have a bad time. solaris is bad news bears.

Edited by Khobai, 11 March 2018 - 05:22 PM.


#17 Seranov

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 05:44 PM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 11 March 2018 - 05:07 PM, said:


So far, though, the Deathstrike has shown itself to be rather competent in 1v1s.

So has the MKII-B.


I just don't think either will be nearly as potent in Solaris as they are in 12v12. They rely a lot on bursting and hiding, or straight up having other people keep attention off of them. The MCII is not so good at tanking damage, even if it's glorious at putting it out.

I expect it won't be a BAD mech, but Gauss Vomit is going to be mediocre at best in a situation where you don't have teammates to help keep the enemy from focusing on pushing you while you try to cool off to do another volley.

#18 Tier5 Kerensky

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 05:51 PM

View PostSeranov, on 11 March 2018 - 04:46 PM, said:

Gauss Vomit is going to get absolutely rolled over in a 1v1 situation though, because it's so desperately heat-capped. Remember, it won't matter how good the mech is in 12v12, so the Deathstrike might actually be garbage in Solaris. I will try my double UAC20 one in there, though.


Any single mech only needs to do well againts it's peers in the same division. 1 vs 1 hasn't yet been Solaris.


View PostYeonne Greene, on 11 March 2018 - 05:07 PM, said:

So far, though, the Deathstrike has shown itself to be rather competent in 1v1s.

So has the MKII-B.


It will probably be good but how good, we don't know as we don't know what others it will face.

#19 Scout Derek

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 06:33 PM

View PostFupDup, on 11 March 2018 - 04:51 PM, said:

PGI had better not use Solaris as the measuring stick for mech/weapon balance or else we're gonna have a bad time.


Kerensky help us if they do.

Just like imagine....

The timberwolf gets buffs... or even the stormcrow... or the Centurion...

D:

#20 Asym

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 06:35 PM

View PostFupDup, on 11 March 2018 - 04:51 PM, said:

PGI had better not use Solaris as the measuring stick for mech/weapon balance or else we're gonna have a bad time.

Actually, Solaris is the metric because all weapons need to be seriously nerf'd for solaris just to work..... TTK needs to be 5 minutes for the sales and marketing to work...... I think, just an opinion and as said above, that high Alpha and meta mechs will destabilize Solaris and it will need a major re-look ASAP.....

You'all will see and those of us no solaris bound will read about it !





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