50 replies to this topic

[Bombast]

MechaBattler, on 15 March 2018 - 02:19 PM, said:

Did Paradox do something bad?

No. Or at least not yet.

evilauthor, on 17 March 2018 - 09:59 AM, said:

Because the Argo is NOT lore friendly? AFAIK, nothing like it exists in BT lore. There's a few spheroid dropships that lore says is entirely meant for space use, but none of them carry smaller Dropships.

Strictly speaking, the Argo is lore friendly. There's nothing in the lore that says such a ship is impossible, and it's current lore specifically states that as one of the reasons why it was abandoned - It was expensive, redundant and they lost one of them almost immediately.

It was an expensive boondongle that wasn't followed up on. Battletech is littered with those.

[evilauthor]

Koniving, on 19 March 2018 - 08:36 AM, said:

One could use constant acceleration to get to a jumpship much quicker than normal, but then you have the issue of flipping over and slowing down

Decellerating is not an issue if you use constant acceleration to travel. You just stop accelerating somewhere in the middle of your journey, THEN turn around while in free fall, and then turn your engine back on so that you're constantly decellerating for the second half of your journey. This is canonically what BT Dropships do, and they will routinely reach speeds of around 1% the speed of light when they reach the turn around point.

And to do this, they have ridiculous fuel efficiencies. Like a 3000 ton Union will burn 6 tons of reaction mass PER DAY to maintain a constant 1G acceleration for that entire day. It still takes around a week on average to get from a planet to a Jump Point and vice versa (in Earth's solar system, the trip is 9 days and the Jump Point is at a distance from the Sun that is just outside Saturn's orbit). And a 2 million ton warship burns less than 30 tons of reaction mass per day to maintain a constant 1G acceleration.

If you were to try to travel to the Jump Point using a "short burn then coast most of the way" method, you'd need according to this web site 2214 days (6 years!) to get there.

[Karl Streiger]

the real issue is indeed the fuel consumption. With high exhaust velocity's you can have low thrust but consume less fuel.
Considering that we use typical fusion Epstein Fusion engines with an exhaust velocity of 11,000km/s a 3500t Union might travel the distance from Solar Nadir to earth ~ 10AU

• by using its 214tons of fuel and an constant acceleration of 0.075m/s in 103 days hydrogen (150GW engine)
  
• by using 1g in 9 days but consume 2437tons of hydrogen (whooping ~19TW of engine power.... good luck in cooling that stuff)

So the Argo might violate existing law by correcting some issues.

Just found some calculations for the Leopard PWS (don't know why this...but its final weight was around 2500tons of those 900tons for fuel)

Considering that it should land on planets its necessary that the Leo can pull more than 1g (maybe they add some solid rocket boosters to the drop ship upon launching)
The fuel is water and for the normal cruise a electrolysis system will turn it into hydrogen

In cruise mode the Leopards fusion engine can accelerate for 1.4m/s - this would turn the 10 AU journey into 23days (accelerating all the time) - consuming 2/3 of its fuel (900tons in total)
this also ignores the fact that the used fuel is reduced mass so - it might be able to accelerate for 60% of the distance and decelerate using more thrust for 40%
With only 900tons of fuel - burn and coast is not saving much time (0.8days) - with bigger tanks you can safe maybe 3 days.

When you consider all this - specialization might be the name of the game.

Reinventing the whole BattleSpace. You have your interstellar jump ships, interplanetary tenders (like the argo) and finally the "real" dropships.
The tenders don't need to land on planets so they do not need multi g capable engines reducing mass and cooling and of course reentry armor - the drop ships only need enough fuel to make it from the ground into the orbit

Edited by Karl Streiger, 20 March 2018 - 12:02 AM.

[Koniving]

Dropping by really quick. The Mercenary trailer shows one of two things depending on how we interpret it...

1) That's a smaller dropship hooking up on the return from a mission, meaning the Argo probably never touches down planetside itself.
Or
2) That's the ship of some contractor that's come to hire you.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Koniving, on 21 March 2018 - 08:42 AM, said:

Dropping by really quick. The Mercenary trailer shows one of two things depending on how we interpret it...

1) That's a smaller dropship hooking up on the return from a mission, meaning the Argo probably never touches down planetside itself.
Or
2) That's the ship of some contractor that's come to hire you.

The Argo is run by your Mercenary company and is your base of operations. Your company acquires it during the playthrough and it is said to be in a pretty rough state (as it was essentially abandoned and lost for quite some time before being rediscovered).

Here is a link to information about the Argo from the Harebrained Schemes Kickstarter Page...
https://www.kickstar...h/posts/1512716

1).

Quote

"The Argo is too large to land on a planet, much like the similarly-sized Behemoth. The prototype multiple docking collar system allowed for smaller DropShips to attach to the Argo for resupply, cargo transfer, and personnel transfer; these docking collars allowed smaller ships to remain attached while the Argo linked with a JumpShip for jump transfer, or to break off and remain in-system while the Argo moved on ahead. The Argo was thus meant as a logistical hub for a small flotilla of DropShips, which would dock and undock with the ship as needed to complete their independent missions."

2).

Quote

"I’m not going to dive into any story spoilers here, but suffice it to say that your Mercenary outfit will come into possession of this derelict Argo-class DropShip early on in the campaign."

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 21 March 2018 - 08:54 AM.

[Koniving]

Forgot about the exact details, but as I suspected. Just wouldn't be economically feasible for a merc company, plus the design really doesn't do it any favors for the concept of landing on planets.

I doubt it is jump capable on its own like many dropships, so I assume we'll have to pay a fee to tether on a jumpship to make the haul to another region.

Though it seems the main story is taking place near Kurita space, I'll have to make it a point to get over to Marik space for any chance of XL / DHS relics since finding it 'new' just isn't gonna happen. And Steiner space to try and get me some assault mechs.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Koniving, on 21 March 2018 - 09:23 AM, said:

Forgot about the exact details, but as I suspected. Just wouldn't be economically feasible for a merc company, plus the design really doesn't do it any favors for the concept of landing on planets.

I doubt it is jump capable on its own like many dropships, so I assume we'll have to pay a fee to tether on a jumpship to make the haul to another region.

Though it seems the main story is taking place near Kurita space, I'll have to make it a point to get over to Marik space for any chance of XL / DHS relics since finding it 'new' just isn't gonna happen. And Steiner space to try and get me some assault mechs.

It isn't a jump ship, but more of a quasi Dropship/space station. It is shown with a Leopard Class Dropship docked to it. I am thinking that the Leopard is what actually makes planet fall and drops of your force (especially since the game focuses on controlling a Lance of mechs).

If you get a chance to watch the latest trailer on YouTube, it shows a lot of new footage from the single player game. For the sake of this post though, here are some pics...

Here is the Argo using a Jumpship. Note due to the Argo's size, it takes up two docking collars...





As for where the game takes place, it is within the Periphery, but not the Clan invasion corridor Periphery, but on the opposite side of the map around the Magistracy of Canopis, and the Taurian Concordat. This places it closer to the great houses of Liao, Marik, and Davion space.



Again, if you haven't checked out the new trailer, I'd give it a watch. It is pretty cool.

[Bombast]

Koniving, on 21 March 2018 - 09:23 AM, said:

Though it seems the main story is taking place near Kurita space, I'll have to make it a point to get over to Marik space for any chance of XL / DHS relics since finding it 'new' just isn't gonna happen. And Steiner space to try and get me some assault mechs.

The game occurs in the Aurigan Reach, bordering the Capellan Confederation and the Taurian Concordat. We will not be able to swing into the Successor States.

[Metus regem]

Bombast, on 21 March 2018 - 09:44 AM, said:

The game occurs in the Aurigan Reach, bordering the Capellan Confederation and the Taurian Concordat. We will not be able to swing into the Successor States.

I'm so going to burn that place to the ground in the name of the A.F.F.S.

[MechaBattler]

Sarna pretty much says the Argo was not designed to land. It has multiple docking collars to allow multiple ships to be docked with it. So obviously they rely on other dropships to do the actual dropping. It's more like 'base ship' that sits in orbit providing a comfortable place for the crew with it's rotating sections.

[Metus regem]

MechaBattler, on 21 March 2018 - 12:29 PM, said:

Sarna pretty much says the Argo was not designed to land. It has multiple docking collars to allow multiple ships to be docked with it. So obviously they rely on other dropships to do the actual dropping. It's more like 'base ship' that sits in orbit providing a comfortable place for the crew with it's rotating sections.

Like I said, for me the Argo fills a lore gap as an intra system transport for the drop ships. It always kind of bothered me that drop ships could do several AU long trips with their onboard fuel systems and crew support systems, on top of doing something like taking off from a planetary surface with sufficient acceleration to break away from the planet.

[evilauthor]

Metus regem, on 21 March 2018 - 12:54 PM, said:

Like I said, for me the Argo fills a lore gap as an intra system transport for the drop ships. It always kind of bothered me that drop ships could do several AU long trips with their onboard fuel systems and crew support systems, on top of doing something like taking off from a planetary surface with sufficient acceleration to break away from the planet.

Doesn't bother me. You'd still need ridiculous levels of fuel efficiency either way given how little of the Argo appears to be fuel tanks.

Still, if the Argo is some kind of Star League era relic instead of the standard way the Inner Sphere does business, then I suppose being a relic makes it much more lore compliant. The Succession Wars era Inner Sphere really doesn't have the infrastructure to make a pure space ship carrier practical; most systems wouldn't be able to service or maintain it, But a relic that was FOUND? It'd be perfect for an independent Merc group to use.

Also, love the idea that the game doesn't take place in the Clan Invasion corridor or Inner Sphere proper. Those locations are waaaaay over-used as far as video game settings go.

[Karl Streiger]

evilauthor, on 22 March 2018 - 05:39 AM, said:

Doesn't bother me. You'd still need ridiculous levels of fuel efficiency either way given how little of the Argo appears to be fuel tanks.

Still, if the Argo is some kind of Star League era relic instead of the standard way the Inner Sphere does business, then I suppose being a relic makes it much more lore compliant. The Succession Wars era Inner Sphere really doesn't have the infrastructure to make a pure space ship carrier practical; most systems wouldn't be able to service or maintain it, But a relic that was FOUND? It'd be perfect for an independent Merc group to use.

Also, love the idea that the game doesn't take place in the Clan Invasion corridor or Inner Sphere proper. Those locations are waaaaay over-used as far as video game settings go.

Wouldn't it need only water as fuel - you can turn it into hydrogen for reaction mass.... or add it into the exhaust for more thrust at the expense of exhaust velocity. So you might not need such big fuel tanks.

However you still need some kind of infrastructure to work. Either the jump ships need to refuel the argo (but need to be refueled by Argos those are refueled by any means to get water ..... ok but nothing new here - space travel is very expensive and energy consuming.
Maybe for getting 1 gal of water into a Argo in a different system you need to waste 1000 gal of water for the transportation....

[MechaBattler]

November11th, on 16 March 2018 - 11:26 PM, said:

Why do you guys even care about the damned drop ship?! We are finally getting he lore friendly RTS we want and deserve!

You wanna know why? Because we're nerds. ô-ô

[MeiSooHaityu]

November11th, on 16 March 2018 - 11:26 PM, said:

Why do you guys even care about the damned drop ship?! We are finally getting he lore friendly RTS we want and deserve!

Well... Not an RTS, but a turn based tactics game (with some small RPG style elements).

Oh, and like MechaBattler said...because we are nerds lol.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 22 March 2018 - 11:55 AM.

[evilauthor]

Karl Streiger, on 22 March 2018 - 05:50 AM, said:

Wouldn't it need only water as fuel - you can turn it into hydrogen for reaction mass.... or add it into the exhaust for more thrust at the expense of exhaust velocity. So you might not need such big fuel tanks.

However you still need some kind of infrastructure to work. Either the jump ships need to refuel the argo (but need to be refueled by Argos those are refueled by any means to get water ..... ok but nothing new here - space travel is very expensive and energy consuming.
Maybe for getting 1 gal of water into a Argo in a different system you need to waste 1000 gal of water for the transportation....

Jumpships don't move in system. The only source they have for refueling is either a refueling station (which are as rare as hen's teeth due to the Succession Wars) or the ships they shuttle from system to system. Otherwise, they don't have the engine power to do more than station keep above the local star.

Also, a 3000 ton Union uses ~7 tons of reaction mass to maintain 1G per day. That doesn't mean throw 7 tons out for a few seconds and then coast. That means that 7 tons of reaction mass is getting used by the engine for every second of each and every hour of a 24 hour day. That's 81 GRAMS (no prefix) of reaction mass being thrown out the exhaust per second to accelerate a 3000 dropship at 9.8 meters per second squared.

I read somewhere once (the actual BT forums I think) that the required energy to do this would put a matter/antimatter reaction to shame. IOW, if you could convert those 81 grams of reaction mass into pure motion, you still wouldn't get the kind of accelerations that BT engines are capable of. And BT's engines are supposed to be fusion.

[Karl Streiger]

Well the exhaust velocity for a 3500t vehicle (union) and 1g acceleration for 1 day must be around .... oh well its impossible....if it would be possible they would not need jump ships.
the maximum possible exhaust velocity is 300,000km/s (when you use laser to accelerate your craft) (and I calculated 420,000km/s)
Maybe the math is wrong....

• mass (3500,000kg) * acc (9.81m/s) = thrust (34,335,000) N
  
• exhaust velocity (4.2*10^8 m/s) * thrust (34,335,000 N)/ 2 = engine power (721TW)
  
• thrust (34,335,000) / exhaust velocity(4.2*10^8m/s) = 0.081kg/s

ok the calc is based on this one






So its not that BT space ships have super efficient engines they have black magic driven space ships (same as with all the ammunition storrage)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 22 March 2018 - 11:24 PM.

[Koniving]

Am back. So on the constant 1G...

Okay, so while I figured they wouldn't go so much into continuous thrust... and Objective Raid (1992) seems to go against the concept by going out of its way to put emphasis on limited fuel, limited trips, only one offensive landfall and extraction (no return trips; once it lands and leaves, that's it)...

Then I found Dropships and Jumpships (1986) . And apparently the whole constant acceleration thing is in full swing. Especially early on. Jumpships barely have enough thrust or power to do more than it needs to do, like keep from falling into the sun, and as such dropships are around. They do run constant thrust for anywhere between days or months and slow down, but always within system. I'm still reading through, but apparently it is a thing. However, it seems they are unlimited on fuel even with the engines being powered by fusion. They still cut the engines after getting enough speed. They still resupply their fuel and reserves. Dropships can still wind up 'dead in space' with no power.

I'm still reading through, about 15 pages in so far. Quite a bit of history. So the "near instant" folding of space, which they call hyperspace...(eye roll), takes no longer than a minute. The more a jumpship hauls in terms of dropships the worse everyone feels afterward. Recharge in seven days, takes hours to unfurl the solar sails for recharging. Average one way trip of dropships happens to be about 3 to 7 days anyway depending on travel. All travel time is based on 1g acceleration until achieving a certain speed, cutting thrust to coast at that speed and countering speed toward the end of the trip. Traveling too fast can arise suspicion especially when using smaller dropships and false transponders or trying to be undetected.

So, seems you're pretty right, Karl. They do shut their engines off when they reach a desired speed and coast, though. Which explains all the limboing around in no gravity, engines off, etc. during longer trips since once they reach it was either 68 or 62% of light speed the engine is cut off and they coast until needing to slow down/correct course.

[evilauthor]

Koniving, on 31 March 2018 - 08:06 AM, said:

So, seems you're pretty right, Karl. They do shut their engines off when they reach a desired speed and coast, though. Which explains all the limboing around in no gravity, engines off, etc. during longer trips since once they reach it was either 68 or 62% of light speed the engine is cut off and they coast until needing to slow down/correct course.

In what kind of star system would a Dropship be traveling so long that it'd reach over 0.6c at 1G constant acceleration? It'd take the better part of the year of non-stop acceleration just to hit that speed and then the Dropship would have to turn around and start DECELERATING for the same amount of time if they didn't want to play RKKV with their destination. So you're looking at a transit time for OVER A YEAR just to travel one way.

Meanwhile, the average transit time in BT appears to be a week. For Earth, a 1 way trip between planet and jump point (which is farther from the Sun than Saturn) is 9 days with constant 1G acceleration. If a Dropship has enough fuel for the several months necessary to reach 0.6c, then a 9 day transit (18 day for round trip) with constant acceleration is a drop in the bucket as far as the Dropship is concerned. For some systems, the one way transit time is as little as 3 days (a planet orbiting a red dwarf for example).

AFAIK, no one goes up to 0.6c and then coasts unless they want to do an interstellar journey. But if they want t do an interstellar journey, then Jumpships are MUCH faster than a relativistic STL trip.

[Metus regem]

evilauthor, on 06 April 2018 - 09:18 AM, said:

In what kind of star system would a Dropship be traveling so long that it'd reach over 0.6c at 1G constant acceleration? It'd take the better part of the year of non-stop acceleration just to hit that speed and then the Dropship would have to turn around and start DECELERATING for the same amount of time if they didn't want to play RKKV with their destination. So you're looking at a transit time for OVER A YEAR just to travel one way.

Meanwhile, the average transit time in BT appears to be a week. For Earth, a 1 way trip between planet and jump point (which is farther from the Sun than Saturn) is 9 days with constant 1G acceleration. If a Dropship has enough fuel for the several months necessary to reach 0.6c, then a 9 day transit (18 day for round trip) with constant acceleration is a drop in the bucket as far as the Dropship is concerned. For some systems, the one way transit time is as little as 3 days (a planet orbiting a red dwarf for example).

AFAIK, no one goes up to 0.6c and then coasts unless they want to do an interstellar journey. But if they want t do an interstellar journey, then Jumpships are MUCH faster than a relativistic STL trip.

80's fluff is 80's fluff...

At the time that it was written with a 1 week transit time, access to the information to do the math wasn't widely available... Just like the data on how actual weapon systems really work wasn't readily available in the 80's... not with out some very expensive and very big books.

Looking at it now, with the easy of access to information we have, there are a lot of things in BT that need a re-look and refining... It's why something like the Argo makes a lot of sense as an in-system transport for the drop ships.