I brought a streakcrow with bap + light tag to a match yesterday. I managed to find a group of 3-4 ECM buggers running around.
For the life of me, I can't lock-on to any of them.
I thought TAG is supposed to be the master override. Like, even if there are 50 ECM mechs, my TAG should cut through the ECM right? Well, why is it functioning more like BAP where it merely subtracts 1? (or maybe not subtracting at all, I don't know)
Two weeks ago, I learned that apparently UAV is not a master override either, and UAV merely gives "vision" to friendlies that can proceed to launch missiles at any of the ECM red squares under UAV. But if you are staring next to the ECM mech with UAV overhead, apparently, you can't lock him...
Like, wtf... these mechanics are all screwed up. Nothing in this game works like how you expect them to.
(case in point number 2... I don't know if anyone remember that PGI used to list map "statistics" at the beginning of every match. I used to think that those temperature means something, until the great heat guru Smokytehbear figured out that those numbers and gravity numbers are all BS. There are simple coefficients that doesn't matter if a map is 220 C or 400 C, they might have the same environmental impact. Come on...)
So what exactly IS the real mechanics? It's not like PGI does the greatest of job explaining how everything works. The only confirm is that BAP cuts ECM, but is that for targeting signature or locking signature? Who knows? Are there even a separate target signature and locking signature? Cause, because of the UAV fiasco, apparently, there are.
Can someone that figured this whole thing out explain it to me?
I brought a streakcrow with bap + light tag to a match yesterday. I managed to find a group of 3-4 ECM buggers running around.
For the life of me, I can't lock-on to any of them.
I thought TAG is supposed to be the master override. Like, even if there are 50 ECM mechs, my TAG should cut through the ECM right? Well, why is it functioning more like BAP where it merely subtracts 1? (or maybe not subtracting at all, I don't know)
Two weeks ago, I learned that apparently UAV is not a master override either, and UAV merely gives "vision" to friendlies that can proceed to launch missiles at any of the ECM red squares under UAV. But if you are staring next to the ECM mech with UAV overhead, apparently, you can't target him...
Like, wtf... these mechanics are all screwed up. Nothing in this game works like how you expect them to.
So what exactly IS the real mechanics? It's not like PGI does the greatest of job explaining how everything works. The only confirm is that BAP cuts ECM, but is that for targeting signature or locking signature? Who knows? Are there even a separate target signature and locking signature? Cause, because of the UAV fiasco, apparently, there are.
Can someone that figured this whole thing out explain it to me?
TAG doesn't counter ECM's "disrupt" feature. It just cuts through stealth.
IIRC, the only things that counters ECM totally are active probes, PPC hits, and another ECM in counter mode.
TAG doesn't counter ECM's "disrupt" feature. It just cuts through stealth.
IIRC, the only things that counters ECM totally are active probes, PPC hits, and another ECM in counter mode.
Ok, so 1 BAP counter 1 ECM to make 1 ECM mech targetable. 2 ECM mech counters 1 BAP to make missile lock impossible again? So another question then, if that's how it works, then how can someone on the outside launch missiles at ECM mechs? Shouldn't 12 ECM mechs be forever immune to missiles unless you can also field 12 BAP mechs?
And what does "cutting" through stealth mean? Make them have a red square appear around them? But I can do that without BAP if I am close enough to an ECM mech.
Ok, so 1 BAP counter 1 ECM to make 1 ECM mech targetable. 2 ECM mech counters 1 BAP to make missile lock impossible again? So another question then, if that's how it works, then how can someone on the outside launch missiles at ECM mechs? Shouldn't 12 ECM mechs be forever immune to missiles unless you can also field 12 BAP mechs?
And what does "cutting" through stealth mean? Make them have a red square appear around them? But I can do that without BAP if I am close enough to an ECM mech.
TAG lets you target an ECM mech outside the ECM counter radius of your active probe.
You can, but if that ecm mech is too close to you (90m radius ECM bubble and uncountered by AP or ECM in counter-mode) it renders your Streaks and your Tag useless.
1) At long range: Reduces the range enemies can target the mech +(mechs in the bubble) (used to reduce detection range to 200m)
2) At short range: Disrupts enemy targets within the bubble (was 180m, may still be, haven't checked
Your issue is coming from the second case, but I'll give a brief overview of how counters work and then explain your issue.
To counter ECM you have the following options
1) ECM (Counter mode)
2) BAP
3) Tag
4) UAV
5) PPC
1) An ECM in counter mode will cancel a single ECM within its range (I believe it's the closest one). This completely negates all the effects of the ECM, but has to be pretty close (whatever the disrupt range of ECM is). If more than one ECM is in effect counter will only cancel one of them and the other will have full effect. Having multiple ECMs in counter mode can cancel multiple ECMs in disrupt mode.
2) BAP works similarly to ECM in counter mode except that it has a longer range and provides other benefits. Similar to counter, BAP can cancel a single ECM within its range. As a note, BAP does not stack with ECM on a mech. If you have an ECM set to counter and BAP only one will have an effect (e.g. you will only be able to cancel 1 ECM. I think ECM takes priority, but I can't remember).
3) Tag allows you to target and lock mechs inside of an ECM bubble (effect 1) and share that lock with teammates. Tag will cut through as many ECMs as necessary to allow the lock, but it doesn't cancel the ECM effect (I think). If you get within the disrupt bubble (effect 2) ECM prevents you from firing lock on weapons. Since tag isn't canceling ECM it doesn't protect you from this effect. If you had a mech close to you that was disrupting and a mech far away that you were tagging I believe the tag would still have the desired effect for any teammates using it to hit that target, but you wouldn't be able to because you would be in a disrupt bubble.
4) UAVs work kind of like a super tag in this context. They don't cancel the effects of ECM, but they do provide the ability to lock/target things that you can see. Basically, they cancel effect 1 in their range, but do nothing about effect 2. If you are in disrupt range a UAV won't help you.
5) On a hit PPCs cancel all of the target's ECM effects for 10s. This includes both effect 1, effect 2, and the ability to counter. This doesn't counter any other ECM effects in the area, so if there is a second mech with ECM nearby you can still have effect 1 and effect 2 from than mech. I believe this still takes effect inside of the minimum PPC range but I could be mistaken on that.
Now let's look at your case specifically. You mention finding 3-4 ECM mechs. What I'm assuming happened was that you closed in on this group of (light) mechs looking for some easy streak kills. What probably happened is that you got within the range of multiple ECM mechs disruption bubble at the same time, your BAP canceled one of them but the others still had full effect. Since you were in range of the disruption bubble your tag was canceling effect 1, but not effect 2.
While not well documented I think that it's a fair counter that allows multiple ECM mech (read lights) to gang up on a single streak mech and cancel out the effect. If there had been a second mech with BAP near you then you could have canceled out more ECMs. It's one of the downsides of streaks being an easy hard counter to lights. Basically, superiority in numbers is important. If you want to use streaks against a group like that you need to stay outside of their disrupt range while getting close enough to get a lock and do damage. Positioning and teamwork is important and you can't just rush in blindly firing streaks off.
Disclaimer: All of this is off my memory of how ECM works. It's definitely possible that there are some errors in there and I welcome anyone who sees one to point it out. That said, it should give you a better idea of the way that ECM works in the game.
1) At long range: Reduces the range enemies can target the mech +(mechs in the bubble) (used to reduce detection range to 200m)
2) At short range: Disrupts enemy targets within the bubble (was 180m, may still be, haven't checked
Thank you, that's very clear on how things work. So basically, I have to stay outside of the disrupt bubble (90m?) against multiple ECM mechs as the disrupt bubble can only be canceled out by equal amount of counter ECM/BAP or PPC shot.
I wish this was more clearly explained and documented in the mechlab description. I think the description and skill tree explanation only explains your "effect 1" but does a poor job to highlight the dual nature of ECM.
Thank you, that's very clear on how things work. So basically, I have to stay outside of the disrupt bubble (90m?) against multiple ECM mechs as the disrupt bubble can only be canceled out by equal amount of counter ECM/BAP or PPC shot.
I wish this was more clearly explained and documented in the mechlab description. I think the description and skill tree explanation only explains your "effect 1" but does a poor job to highlight the dual nature of ECM.
Again, many thanks.
Correct, you need to stay outside the (90m?) disruption bubble to avoid being disrupted and then you should be able to use tag/UAVs to get a lock.
Yes, the in game documentation is pretty poor with regards to a lot of features. I mainly know because I've been around a long time and was here when they added ECM to begin with (oh man was it broken).
Fun fact:
ECM used to jam IFF within the disrupt bubble so you couldn't see what targets were red/blue. Needless to say while fun it caused a lot of friendly fire and complaints so it was removed. It did make having matching camo a useful tool for units though.
Correct, you need to stay outside the (90m?) disruption bubble to avoid being disrupted and then you should be able to use tag/UAVs to get a lock.
Yes, the in game documentation is pretty poor with regards to a lot of features. I mainly know because I've been around a long time and was here when they added ECM to begin with (oh man was it broken).
Fun fact:
ECM used to jam IFF within the disrupt bubble so you couldn't see what targets were red/blue. Needless to say while fun it caused a lot of friendly fire and complaints so it was removed. It did make having matching camo a useful tool for units though.
WHY IS THAT NO LONGER A THING????
That honestly sounds one of the most creative and imaginative invention that PGI has ever come up with.
That honestly sounds one of the most creative and imaginative invention that PGI has ever come up with.
It was super fun, but it caused pure chaos in pug matches. Imagine a light mech runs through your team and now all your teammates are shooting each other (and once you get shot and turn around to see a mech shooting at you with no IFF guess what you do?)
I was a glorious time to be a light pilot, but PGI ruled that it was too powerful since a lot of pug players had problems with it. There were many a tense moments spent looking at another mech and wondering if it was friend or foe, not wanting to take the first shot by mistake. I personally loved it and I feel like that was the most fun use of information warfare we've had in the game.
Thank you, that's very clear on how things work. So basically, I have to stay outside of the disrupt bubble (90m?) against multiple ECM mechs as the disrupt bubble can only be canceled out by equal amount of counter ECM/BAP or PPC shot.
I wish this was more clearly explained and documented in the mechlab description. I think the description and skill tree explanation only explains your "effect 1" but does a poor job to highlight the dual nature of ECM.
Again, many thanks.
Essentially yes.
So what happened in your streakcrow scenario was this...
Your Clan Active Probe negated the disrupt effects of the closest enemy ECM. (this is a 240m bubble for the CAP counter range)
The light TAG marked a target (let's assume it wasn't the closest ECM) and that target becomes targetable through it's ECM effects but the disrupt effects of ECM on your mech's target locks is not countered by TAG but would have been countered by the CAP when ever that particular ECM was the closest enemy ECM within 240m.
So if you had two ECM mechs around you the closest ECM is countered by the clan active probe (at a 240m distance) while the "radar cloak" of a second ECM mech targeted by your TAG laser is countered as long as the TAG is on them.
But,if the TAG targeted mech becomes the closest target the CAP will select it's ECM as the closest and full counter that ECM while the other ECM mech is now scott free of any countermeasures and it's ECM is functioning normaly.
In addition if the TAG targeted mech slips into a 90m range of you it's ECM disrupt effects now jam your target locks since the TAG does not prevent the ECM from disrupting locks.
A work around is expensive in tonnage,crit slots,hardpoints and active attention. Throw a NARC launcher in the mix and now all ECM mechs that have attached NARC beacons are ECM countered as well as the closest ECM being effected by the CAP/BAP and the TAG laser will cut through the stealth effects of any ECM mech without a NARC on it.
To OP its best not to boat streaks in general, as someone who has played a light and got insta gibbed by them. Have some srms instead or mix them up incase you come across ecm mechs.
Xiphias, on 15 March 2018 - 05:42 AM, said:
2) At short range: Disrupts enemy targets within the bubble (was 180m, may still be, haven't checked
UAVs are awesome, streaks go out to 360m and Artemis speeds lock-on time. I would not expect that many ecm wolf packs right now because those lights risk stealing each other’s kmdd.
That honestly sounds one of the most creative and imaginative invention that PGI has ever come up with.
the same reason LRMs arnt allowed to be any good
because of horrible T4 and T5 players
information warfare is a huge mess in this game though. half the equipment does things it shouldnt do. the other half doesnt do things it should do. sensors pretty much dont matter at all. information warfare was supposed to be one of the four pillars of the game, and what we have isnt even minimally viable.
To OP its best not to boat streaks in general, as someone who has played a light and got insta gibbed by them. Have some srms instead or mix them up incase you come across ecm mechs.
its 90m ecm was nerfed a while back
I knew it got nerfed and that the friendly coverage range was only 90m. I couldn't remember is disrupt got dropped as well, but you're right because it makes it easier to sneak up on people now so I don't really mind that much. Thanks for pointing it out.
Nightbird, on 15 March 2018 - 07:27 AM, said:
UAVs counter all ECMs in radius. Pop one and splat all lights.
Do UAVs counter disruption within their radius or just provide spotting? I haven't check recently and honestly I can't really remember. Most of the UAVs I put up are for other people's benefit. I think you might be right, but I'd have to check in game to be sure.
I brought a streakcrow with bap + light tag to a match yesterday. I managed to find a group of 3-4 ECM buggers running around.
For the life of me, I can't lock-on to any of them.
I thought TAG is supposed to be the master override. Like, even if there are 50 ECM mechs, my TAG should cut through the ECM right? Well, why is it functioning more like BAP where it merely subtracts 1? (or maybe not subtracting at all, I don't know)
Two weeks ago, I learned that apparently UAV is not a master override either, and UAV merely gives "vision" to friendlies that can proceed to launch missiles at any of the ECM red squares under UAV. But if you are staring next to the ECM mech with UAV overhead, apparently, you can't lock him...
Like, wtf... these mechanics are all screwed up. Nothing in this game works like how you expect them to.
(case in point number 2... I don't know if anyone remember that PGI used to list map "statistics" at the beginning of every match. I used to think that those temperature means something, until the great heat guru Smokytehbear figured out that those numbers and gravity numbers are all BS. There are simple coefficients that doesn't matter if a map is 220 C or 400 C, they might have the same environmental impact. Come on...)
So what exactly IS the real mechanics? It's not like PGI does the greatest of job explaining how everything works. The only confirm is that BAP cuts ECM, but is that for targeting signature or locking signature? Who knows? Are there even a separate target signature and locking signature? Cause, because of the UAV fiasco, apparently, there are.
Can someone that figured this whole thing out explain it to me?
BAP is the master override. And it can HARD-counter one target (the closest one in your proximity.)
TAG can SOFT-counter one enemy as you aim at them. (As long as it is in the TAG's range).
You have 3-4 targets. You're kinda ******. At most you could hope to counter two targets but you're basically ******.
As for what hard and soft means.
Soft counters the hidden target box at any range. But does not counter the 25% reduction in lock time (thankfully, TAG has a 25% faster lock on so basically it locks at "normal" speed as if it were a non-ECM user without any lock aids. But TAG lets you lock onto anyone faster). (If you want the "25% faster locks" on ECM, you need to tack in Artemis as just having it enabled accelerates all locks [within line of sight] by 25% and back that up with TAG; note this means 50% faster locks on regular targets). (Maybe PGI will eventually fix this issue as we're going on 6 years of it being known...)
Hard counters will completely disable all ECM functionality of a specific ECM user (in the case of BAP, the one closest to you, in the case of CAP, the one you target [regardless who is closer]).
BAP/CAP will hard counter only for you.
An ER PPC will hard counter for everyone.
Certain PPCs only seem to soft counter (but do so for everyone).
UAV is only a soft counter.
So on the temps... we've known this for a LONG time. It was Karl, Matt or somesuch that basically said the temps are just fluff as is the gravity.
Heat is effectively two modifiers that are either map-wide or section-specific.
For example Caustic Valley has -15% cooling speed (compared to "100%", like Forest colony and Canyon) and -10% maximum heat before shutdown.
Terra Therma has -25% cooling speed and -20% maximum heat. (Fun fact, in 2016 all hot maps had -25% cooling speed and -25% maximum heat).
Lava in Terra Therma, as well as any volcano spot (regardless of touching lava) has -60% cooling speed and -12% maximum heat (probably so that you'd be able to escape, though Lava and the volcanoes stop giving environmental heat at 90%).
Currently we have roughly 2.5 to 3 times the gravity of Earth on all maps (by way of the "fall speed" indicator. This is because, in the words of one Sean Lang, "It didn't feel right to be floating in the air." Which is what happens when your acceleration toward the sky stops and you gradually lose momentum until eventually gravity overpowers your upward momentum (if we set the gravity to earth's level, you'd basically leap off the ground faster than a Gauss Rifle slug with how much power the jumpjets are actually pumping...)
20 to 100 tons is insanely heavy, so once it stops accelerating to the sky, a LOT of momentum would have to be overcome before allowing the gravity to overpower it.
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