28 replies to this topic

[Dragonporn]

Curious about general tactics people use on this map. No secret that 90% of times (across pretty much any tiers) people tend to rush top and hold it, which usually turns into mindless nascar and then into simple moshpit, where everybody fight whenever and whoever they can.

On my personal experience, going into basement area always had pretty spectacular results, especially in modes where team must hold the middle (like Domination). Yeah, any LRM boats are screwed that way, but let's be real, they are brutally screwed on this map either way, though dumbfire can still work.

So, why going basement is so good? Because down there we have tons of cover and most importantly, to get into fight, enemy must squeeze through very narrow passages, where they have no cover and virtually can't maneuver. They can already get killed or badly beaten up on approach, since we have much better firing position and can easily shuffle, while they can't. Plus there are usually more than enough mechs to cover any other approaches, so that's no threat.

If they push hard inside, we can simply stack by the walls at two sides and each enemy mech gets shot in the back from one side or the other, while our backs are at the wall and any of us can always dive inside one of many walls and columns all over the place. On top of it, it is usually easy to scout and prepare for any direction enemy would be coming from, since everything in this game moves and acts pretty slow.

Why going top is worse idea? Because while it may seem like there are many covers and good vision on the field, we're literally exposed from any side. Anyone who poptarts can get good core shot at tin cans standing at the top. Enemy can also just pull back at some distance and while having solid cover, they can also have great vision and line of fire to the top, as well as any wall snipers. Not once I remember team stayed at the top for more than few minutes, and if we did stay longer, that usually ended badly for us.

What do you guys think about this? Where do you usually go on this map? Why do you prefer one way or the other?

P.S. Why Forest Colony is so unpopular map? It's not the hottest one, has lots of cover, water, good environment and landscape to get closer to enemy unnoticed etc, etc. Favors many different playstyles, you can do great in any kind of mech on this map. But whenever I want to rack up vote multiplier, this map is always a sure way to get one. Strange, if you ask me...

Edited by Dragonporn, 18 March 2018 - 02:02 AM.

[Sjorpha]

That username though...what do people of your orientation call yourselves? Scalies?

[MW Waldorf Statler]

90% from all Basements stands ended in a Massacre when the reds not bad...all run alone in the entrys to firing out and in the Focus fire from the Outside ..its like tunnels on fires out and 4 and more Fires in ...

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 18 March 2018 - 02:58 AM.

[PocketYoda]

I agree op 8 times out of 10 if we work as a team below we win, if the ADD players keep poking out though we lose..

Honestly patience seems to be a bigger killer of mechs in this game than poor aim.. Plus you can artie those up top with cheap exploit tactics from down below.

Bottom works if the team is good and works together, top gets you killed even if you have all that way more. Bottom seriously limits lurmers of both sides too so its win win even if you lose.

Edited by Samial, 18 March 2018 - 03:50 AM.

[arcana75]

In general, players feel that taking and holding the high ground is advantageous. Interestingly, human behaviour is such that if you're on high ground, you are inclined to look down, but if you're on low ground, you're inclined to keep looking at ground level and don't look up, allowing high ground attackers to take advantage of this to attack lower enemies freely.

This is most prevalent in Canyon Network.

[Bombast]

Basement is bad. Very, very bad. Stop doing it.

The top of HPG (And on many maps) is almost always advantageous because it gives you map control. You can see more, shoot more, easily transition to any other part of the map (This is the most important bit), and just generally do more.

Holding basement has exactly one way of winning - Forcing the enemy to get bored and do something stupid, because they'd rather die than deal with this passive crap for 15 minutes. And guess what - The basement team can succumb to the same impulse. That's right, going basement is basically just entering into a patience contest where you pit your pugs willingness to not actually play the game against the enemy's willingness to deal with that crap.

Dragonporn, on 18 March 2018 - 01:57 AM, said:

P.S. Why Forest Colony is so unpopular map? It's not the hottest one, has lots of cover, water, good environment and landscape to get closer to enemy unnoticed etc, etc. Favors many different playstyles, you can do great in any kind of mech on this map. But whenever I want to rack up vote multiplier, this map is always a sure way to get one. Strange, if you ask me...

The usual answer is that the visuals are hard on people's systems. All the trees make people's computers chug.

That and I'm pretty sure most mechwarriors have a grey fetish.

Edited by Bombast, 18 March 2018 - 04:31 AM.

[Pocket_Aces]

^^ What he said.

[Seranov]

Stuffing your whole team into the tiny basement can ONLY go well if everyone is willing to sit in there and do ******* nothing for the whole round while you wait for the enemy to get impatient and do something dumb.

HPG's basement is a deathtrap with no room to maneuver and no way to leave once the enemy has decided to pin you down inside it. It is bad, and you will lose the vast majority of the time if you try going down there when facing more experienced enemies.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Bombast, on 18 March 2018 - 04:31 AM, said:

Basement is bad. Very, very bad. Stop doing it.

The top of HPG (And on many maps) is almost always advantageous because it gives you map control. You can see more, shoot more, easily transition to any other part of the map (This is the most important bit), and just generally do more.

Holding basement has exactly one way of winning - Forcing the enemy to get bored and do something stupid, because they'd rather die than deal with this passive crap for 15 minutes. And guess what - The basement team can succumb to the same impulse. That's right, going basement is basically just entering into a patience contest where you pit your pugs willingness to not actually play the game against the enemy's willingness to deal with that crap.



The usual answer is that the visuals are hard on people's systems. All the trees make people's computers chug.

That and I'm pretty sure most mechwarriors have a grey fetish.

This.

You basically cede the initiative to the enemy, who can hang back and plan their attack, and the basement really isn't that great a defensive position.

The defenders have to split up to watch the 4 entrances, which means they won't have that much firepower initially available to bring down the attackers once they push. The attackers can poke and harass the defenders from the entrances and have the advantage of being able to snipe at them from the ledges around each edges, giving them more angles from which to shoot, meaning the defenders will have to pull back from the entrances or take a lot of damage from bad trades.

Then, it's just a matter of putting together an assault plan, for which the attackers have many options. They can simply rush an entrances and overwhelm the defenders before they can get reinforced. They can post harassing units at each entrance to distract the enemy and keep them from fully reinforcing against the main push. They can send in a squirrel squad to wreak havoc and sweep aside the defenders with the main push in the confusion.

Heck, if they manage to gain the kill advantage in the harassment/trading phase, then the entire basement defense plan is completely broken, as the defenders will lose the game by default if they don't push out and even up the score.

And if you're playing any mode but Skirmish or Domination, they can just play the objective and win that way.

[Cato Phoenix]

Basement is also only a viable strategy for Skirmish/Domination, since you cede the win conditions to anyone outside in Incursion/Conquest/Assault.

My favorite tactic is to seize the top, obliterate anyone trying to peek up there, and then use it to sweep fire down below. Unfortunately, most teams tend to nascar around the ramp level and make it run of the mill nascar idiocy.

Edited by Cato Phoenix, 18 March 2018 - 05:45 AM.

[El Bandito]

DON'T LISTEN TO OP! By going down the basement, you are giving the initiative to the enemy, and basically forfeiting your chance of definitive victory. Unless the opponents are complete scrubs they will simply guard the entrance from the top while checking any movement through Seismic. Against more competent team at best you will get a draw when the timer ends, and that's just dumb.

Only time I would even contemplate going down the basement with the team is when I am grouped with pugs against 12-man 228. At least then I will be able to do some damage before I die.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 March 2018 - 06:07 AM.

[SmokeGuar]

Do not go below, do not call targets below. With these two simple advices your team will do better. Teams that split top and below die quickly.

[Verilligo]

There are four entrances into the basement, all of which can be dropped down and immediately walked into rather than taking a ramp in. They only become choke points if you can force the enemy to stream into them, something you can't do if you play passively and initiate the match as a defensive action. Otherwise it's just a game of getting lucky with guessing the right door and having enough guns facing it. Generally if the enemy team is coordinated enough, you won't have the time to reposition your bigger guns to advantageous positions before they've already swept in and started killing your d00dz, removing firepower from the field.

[Escef]

I've found that the basement on HPG Manifold makes a great shortcut, but you don't want to get stuck there.

[Asym]

The best tactic I've seen used, outside of domination, was to not even go into the HPG interior.... The entire match was fought outside the walls.... Now that, was a fun way to fight HPG... Otherwise, since that idead took a 12 man team, and, they no longer are in MWO, take the top, NASCAR, avoid the basement and repeat the same thing about six or more times in a row because you need a 8 or 9x vote modifer to shortcut the brawlers and NASCAR drivers that live for this map.....

Good luck.

[FLG 01]

People try to come up with fancy explanations to justify going down the basement, but let's be honest: the reason people go basement is because they lack the aggression to do fire and maneuver (especically the latter).

We can discuss tactics all day, and I fully agree there are very good reasons for staying out of the basement. But in the end it is a matter of attitude first and foremost.
Sitting in cover and pointing your guns at a chokepoint is clearly the result of timidity in most cases.

[Variant1]

The only time i would recomend going basement is if alot of the enemy mechs have lrms, that way they can deal with the direct fire before going out and finishing the lrm launchers. thts just my take on when the basement comes in handy

[WrathOfDeadguy]

For all of the reasons above, basement camping is a bad idea, and more.

Your fast 'Mechs cannot maneuver. Your JJ-equipped 'Mechs cannot use their mobility. Your gunbags are limited to one or two decent firing lanes, which will get blocked by somebody if anybody moves once the killbox is established. Your ECM is useless because it can be cancelled easily by a UAV or a counter sitting above you where you cannot shoot it. If you have ATMs or LRMs on your team, their firepower will probably be wasted because their field of fire is too restricted to get a clean volley off. Your brawlers can't engage properly because they have to clear firing lanes for your DPS and sniper 'Mechs.

Yes, it can work with a disciplined team... but it is so. Damned. Limiting.

Dragonporn, on 18 March 2018 - 01:57 AM, said:

Why Forest Colony is so unpopular map? It's not the hottest one, has lots of cover, water, good environment and landscape to get closer to enemy unnoticed etc, etc. Favors many different playstyles, you can do great in any kind of mech on this map. But whenever I want to rack up vote multiplier, this map is always a sure way to get one. Strange, if you ask me...

Forest Colony is unpopular because the dense tree cover impairs visibility. Most players find the game less enjoyable when they have to use heat vision or night vision just to be able to see.

[Petey the Stout]

I had a couple wise asses trying to say it’s basic geometry tonight.There was some BS about having an advantage by looking down; however, any Mech between the wall and the top can easily look up so that’s not really a thing. Here are my thoughts on not really liking either top or bottom:

Top
1. A mech is more exposed on the top then almost anywhere. From any edge there is a 180 degree angle from which you can be hit and that’s a large swath of area to search for the guy with a PPC and ECM.

2. Your head is always exposed before your arms or torso so you’re gonna take some head shots. That’s the place with the least armor, right.

3. You are still vulnerable to SRMs, and MMR on top so that lip doesn’t really provide much cover when the middle aren’t being lobbed in.

4. Unless you are coordinating extremely well on top, the opposing team will likely sneak up from behind and naw down your back making for an easy kill.

5. If you have LRMs they are useless unless you’re willing to fully expose yourself for the entire barrage of missles.

Basement

1. I agree that it becomes a waiting game if you’re whole team goes down and that usually ends poorly; however, you have to go down for Theta at some point right? Killing and capping doesn’t always work out.

2. Clearing the basement and moving out and up tends to work better than just waiting down there.

Basically I think you have to coordinate weapon strengths then choose the strategy that works with your collective loadout. There isn’t one right answer but I always love when people insist that the top is the only option always and forever.

[Bombast]

Petey the Stout, on 12 May 2018 - 08:23 PM, said:

Top
1. A mech is more exposed on the top then almost anywhere. From any edge there is a 180 degree angle from which you can be hit and that’s a large swath of area to search for the guy with a PPC and ECM.

The opposite is also true - Mechs up top can fire out into more areas. Its a superior offensive position, both from a firing perspective, and a movement perspective.

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2. Your head is always exposed before your arms or torso so you’re gonna take some head shots. That’s the place with the least armor, right.

This is also true for people who are low shooting up.

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3. You are still vulnerable to SRMs, and MMR on top so that lip doesn’t really provide much cover when the middle aren’t being lobbed in.

Everyone is always vulnerable to SRMs and MRMs that are within range. This is true up top, around the rim, or in the basement. It's a useless statement.

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4. Unless you are coordinating extremely well on top, the opposing team will likely sneak up from behind and naw down your back making for an easy kill.

Not true. The top has superior view, superior fire lanes, and a much easier time moving on the offensive, as they have a shorter route to any point on the map to the people below them, who have to march around. While its possible to get flanked while on top, its much easier for the top to flank the bottom.

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5. If you have LRMs they are useless unless you’re willing to fully expose yourself for the entire barrage of missiles.

As opposed to the basement, where LRMs magically fly through the terrain.

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Basement

1. I agree that it becomes a waiting game if you’re whole team goes down and that usually ends poorly; however, you have to go down for Theta at some point right? Killing and capping doesn’t always work out.

You don't have to go to Theta, actually. A double cap on HPG is almost always enough to drag the match out to a definitive mech kill win, and if the enemy team heavily invest in Theta, you can just go cap their two spawn caps and four cap them.

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2. Clearing the basement and moving out and up tends to work better than just waiting down there.

Going top and then hammering the enemy who went to cap Theta as they come out of basement tends to work better than pretty much anything.

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Basically I think you have to coordinate weapon strengths then choose the strategy that works with your collective loadout. There isn’t one right answer but I always love when people insist that the top is the only option always and forever.

Top is almost always the best option to start with, for one simple reason - It takes about 20 seconds to transition down if it ends up being a bad position for whatever reason. It takes minutes to fight your way up to the top from the bottom, if you ever are able to.