Can the hand actuators do precise work and if so, how did that work from the pilot's end? Were there pre-programmed actions. Or was it all joystick control?
You want to know if you can make your mech flip someone the bird, don't you?
The answer is yes, but nothing Star League-era is capable of that kind of gesture. Poster above me covered that, without actually saying the words.
I remember during a clip on the making of Avatar. One of the creators remarked it was silly that the mechs carried guns. That it could be knocked away or used against them. Fair enough. But given that you have to use a refit kit and your techs to change the loadout of a mech in Battletech. The ability to simply pick up multiple types of weapons seems like a cheaper alternative for a military on a budget. Instead refitting or purchasing/building different variants or chassis to fit a specific role.
Were there rules on how many times a hand held autocannon could shoot before reloading a mag? I'd be curious if there was like a 'carbine' version of autocannons. Shorter barrel and range, but offsets the extra weight of making it hand held. I also feel like you could reduce chances of it getting knocked away by using some kind of magnetic clamps.
What about the equivalent of a bazooka? Or a panzer faust?
Nope. on the reload.
Basically the assumption is "One round" = one magazine or one reload. Note a round is "NOT" a shot. (When it comes to ACs.)
It isn't 100% true, as this also states, that some mechs would drop magazines (cassettes) as quickly as it fired down range. This is because some were fraction-sized (typically half-sized) or extended. This is more on the fluff side though design quirks has an extended cassette perk that basically allows you to fire twice in a turn without risk of jam for standard ACs. The name has since been changed to "Fast Reload"
There wasn't actual rules on the subject, however BattleTechnology had a lot of ****.... Including variants and differences.
This is just a tiny sample.
Now this gives you an idea of firing rates, but doesn't explicitly state shells per cassette (Round).
Anyway, the large article on the PPC goes out of its way to state this:
"The magnetic coils, generators and cooling units constitute over half of its mass." The tonnage is typically distributed with 1 ton for a large thick barrel, around 3 tons for cooling units (including thermal insulators), 2 tons for the main weapon itself (generators and magnetic coils) and an additional ton in cables to power it.
It is mentioned that different manufacturers allocate the weight differently to suit their niche.
This inspired me to create something of a variant weight distribution system which you will see this weekend in the hypothetical thread as a way of balancing variants. With a set amount of weight and a "standard" model for comparison, reallocating weight from one aspect to another creates a "give and take" relationship. Want to shoot faster? Put more weight into the feed/recharging mechanism, but it has to come from somewhere. Typically a shorter barrel. Bam, carbine autocannon that shoots faster but suffers in long range accuracy. Gun too hot? Put more into cooling system/insulation, which helps it filter the heat more to the heat pumps compared to what builds up in the mech, which the pumps will eventually get to the mech heat over time. But what suffers in return? Even have some economic options, such as rather than ejecting the shells out of the mech, it stores them inside to reduce the cost of rearming. This comes at its own costs, though, such as a somewhat slower ejection (and thus firing rate) and minor heat.
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Earlier I mentioned two quirks in order to achieve hand held weapons. These are NOT actually in the rules within BattleTechnology for using handheld autocannons, etc. This is actually what you have to do to get the desired effect in Megamek. Jettison-Capable allows your weapon to behave like a handheld weapon in Megamek, allowing you to drop and pick it back up when needed. This also means the weapon must be dropped if you want to use that hand in melee.
(Apparently, according to the update on Jettison-Capable, the handheld weapon rule has returned... But I've found it nowhere in Classic Battletech so it must be a post 3100 thing...)
Modular Weapon allows you a repair bonus for fixing/replacing it with ease, as well as significantly reduces the time for doing so. It can be swapped within an hour (which I assume includes the time of bringing one weapon out of storage and swapping it out, then bringing the other weapon into storage).
The two together on any given weapon achieves the desired effect in Megamek.
The equivalent of a Bazooka would be a Mech Rifle.
Consider this.. If Front Mission's Wanzers were Battlemechs, the "Sniper Type" would either be using a Gauss Rifle, or before Gauss Rifles, a PPC, OR a "Mech Rifle." Now Mech Rifles dropped out of military service since while they were superior in terms of damage Per Shot, they were significantly inferior to what an Autocannon could pump out. Also Rifles relied on penetrating into the mech through the armor in order to deliver its damage into the structure. Once Battlemechs upgraded from BT's "Primitive" (or Commercial which is also neat and more modern) to the current military grades with a Barrier Armor Rating (BAR) of 10 (most armor ranges from 5 to 12, but all mech/tank/strikecraft weapons are assumed to be rated at 10, except Rifles which rate at 7).
However, the Rifle is based on much heavier modern day tank cannons, while Autocannons are based on anti-air weapons and IFVs. The thing is according to "The First Battlemech", a short story on the Mackie... It was tested against several tanks equipped with varying "cannons", aka Rifles. Their shots would bounce off the armor, unable to penetrate. Meanwhile its autocannon, the first BAR 10 weapon of its kind, would penetrate the drone tanks' (primitive) armor, making every volley a through armor critical. The pilots at their terminals were absolutely terrified... and the story concludes with how they had just unleashed a horror onto the universe that it will never recover from.
Anyway. At 8 tons, a 190mm Heavy Rifle does 9 damage against BAR of 7 or less and structure. It is reduced to 3 damage against BAR 10 armor (10 - 3 = 7).
Under the rules for direct and glancing hits, a Heavy Rifle can do upwards of well the most I got once was 14 damage. Not bad for an 8 ton gun.
So, the Front Mission Wanzers? Here's the sniper type.
For a good solid comparison of the actual issue between Rifles versus Autocannons.. Sadly the single shot cannon (Heavy Rifle) at 8 tons has the same expected accurate range as an AC/5, also at 8 tons. But even in regular tabletop, the AC/5 can (at risk of heat/jam/explosion if you keep doing it) pump out two full cassettes in the time a Rifle takes to fire and recover from using.
Just pretend Ota's shotgun is a Rifle, and the gatling guns are autocannons (which they effectively are).
(Consider the pistol to be a Light Rifle... which does 0 damage against mechs unless the armor is gone, then it does 3 damage).
AC
Lots of ACs
(Note: ACs in Battletech have an added umph, they supposedly pierce just enough to embed themselves and then explode, hence "HEAP" or high explosive armor piercing.)
"Rifle"
Rifles either try to pierce and shred, or hit and then inject as either SABOT or HEAT. Read something about it being a mix, but then that basically makes it a fat, really long AC shell which wouldn't make sense.
LBX is debatable, but one of the big things early on is that the shells are flak-like, and it seems like a cross between a Rifle and an AC. Like ACs, they do shoot quite fast. The ammunition name "Cluster", suggests that the shell releases fragments/bombs/balls that explode. Flak shells ther detonate and fragment at timed fuses or in proximity, which helps to foster why these "shotguns" as they were later dubbed have superior range to ACs.
But short of a Rifle, the only single shot power houses you're gonna get are mech-portable Long Toms, Gauss Rifles, PPCs. Technically the Mech mortars are multiple shot too. Good luck!
The Thunderbolt Missile was developed for the arenas of Solaris. Unlike most missile systems, the Thunderbolt was a single missile that smashed into its target. Though it was effective in the arenas, it didn't see widespread use in the field because the single missile was very vulnerable to Anti-Missile Systems. The missile launcher, though small, was awkward to mount and would only fit on the left or right torso of a 'Mech.[2]
In addition, if hit by weapons fire, the Thunderbolt Missile would inflict the same damage on the 'Mech mounting it as well as increasing the heat scale by 15 points.
Yes it was a one and done missile, just like you are talking about...
That's a lot of info lol. More than I thought I would get. But it did bring me to another question. Since so many mechs have hand actuators, especially within the Inner Sphere, why don't more mechs use hand weapons? Seems like it would add to the versatility of every battlemech with hands.
Some actually have hand weapons that are integrated with the Battlemech, but can be jettisoned. The tabletop Battlemaster, for example. Truly self-contained handhelds also exist, but tend to be less efficient or designed as one-shot weapons, like the infamous multiple-RL handhelds.
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[color=#959595]This is more on the fluff side though design quirks has an extended cassette perk that basically allows you to fire twice in a turn without risk of jam for standard ACs. The name has since been changed to [/color]"Fast Reload"
That's incorrect. Fast reload is how long it takes to reload the weapon's ammo bin, not the ability to double-fire a standard AC.
LocationNAIS College of Military Science OCS courses
Posted 27 March 2018 - 02:18 PM
Brain Cancer, on 27 March 2018 - 02:14 PM, said:
Some actually have hand weapons that are integrated with the Battlemech, but can be jettisoned. The tabletop Battlemaster, for example. Truly self-contained handhelds also exist, but tend to be less efficient or designed as one-shot weapons, like the infamous multiple-RL handhelds.
That's incorrect. Fast reload is how long it takes to reload the weapon's ammo bin, not the ability to double-fire a standard AC.
How ever double firing a standard AC is an optional rule, it just has a stupidly high chance of jamming....
How ever double firing a standard AC is an optional rule, it just has a stupidly high chance of jamming....
That it is. Originally, even Ultras weren't designed to double-tap, but the better structural tolerances made them able to handle pulling the "trick" better than standards, to the point where what was originally overdoing it became a "feature", and eventually led to designs that could even tolerate jams and clear them without needing a repair crew (the RAC, though MWO's UACs are far more tolerant).
There are a lot of things in BT that don't make any sense...
The biggest one I like to point to, is the hip mounted AC/20 on the Atlas (that is meant to be around 11m tall) how do you fit a 150mm+ weapon system in there?,
Or I also like, how do you pass an ammo feed through a hip and shoulder joint? (looking at leg mounted ammo bins that feed arm mounted weapons)
But the Defiance MechHunter is only a 100mm....a bigger issue is a GaussRifle or a PPC that doesn't use a cyclotron.
Considering the Wolfhounds complete head ejection system - the minimum height of the WLF is around 13m. (when using MWO model as reference) that doesn't meant that the Atlas need to be 30m in height (of course)
Of course we can have the pilot sitting in the torso of a mech - and the FullHeadEjection System is a POD ejection system....so you can reduce the size of a Mech considerable.
But adding "interior" details or calculating Mechs volume is something I just started.
I really really like the idea of an integrated jettison-able weapon system - its a poor mans omni-pod.
On a side note the Battle Technology calibers seem to be sound (with exception of the 3 round 120mm AC5)
Edited by Karl Streiger, 28 March 2018 - 01:29 AM.
What about like a thunderbolt rocket launcher? No guidance, just a one off brutality weapon. It would be closer to a bazooka. :3
I haven't used one yet. But that would work.
What I read of the separate handheld from what I recall is its like equipping a third arm. It has its own armor, ammo or heatsinks, etc.
Ammo being stored on the weapon itself sometimes on the torso (for that ammo backpack minigun look).
Similar to a shield which is half ton (or full ton) plus the armor it provides. I may be mistaken but I think like shields the handheld take abuse first. Once the armor is done that's it. But will have to look it all up again to be sure.
Speaking of Front Mission it is among the many ideas I had for my channel. And on rifles versus acs, the rifle is vastly superior in FM but in FM Evolved which is in real time the MG or shotguns dps completely outclasses the rifle and bazooka into near uselessness. Kinda the same in BT. The single shot is immensely powerful almost comparable to the PPC, but AC rapid fire spammer basically chased the Rifle out of service. It is still used by pirates civilians and periphery mercenary on a budget.
Will look up the extended mag quirk in morning. Centurion cn9-D had it according to tro 3039. Applicable to the lbs.
Okay so digging that up, it was actually the Enforcer, not the Centurion.. And doubling the magazine was not about doubling the cassette size preluding to a quirk concept but actually about doubling the amount of ammunition it could haul while fixing jamming issues.
Also interesting, between the 4R and 5D designs, the Enforcer's torso was "Completely redesigned" into a "New shape" to avoid the jamming issues that the 4R would have if they tried to give it more ammunition by sacrificing other elements, as the only place they could "fit" the ammo was the left torso and feeding from the left torso to the right arm was "extremely complicated and could only be done by feeding it around the already fragile back."
So perhaps that quirk never existed but I could have sworn...
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MechaBattler, on 20 March 2018 - 01:52 PM, said:
