22 replies to this topic

[Xetelian]

Thank god for consistency and volumetric scaling so 70 ton mechs and 80 ton mechs have vastly different sizes.

[FupDup]

T H E V O L U M E A D D S U P B R O

It's likely the arms that are the root cause of this. The tiny arms "require" PGI to inject all of that "unused" volume into the torso section of the mech, resulting in a squishy gundam. The seemingly skinny (but long) legs probably aren't helping with the volume quota.

[Jackal Noble]

Hate to break it to ya, but pretty much every heavy is bigger than the Awesome.
Thanatos
Black Knight
Night Gyr
Nova Cat
Sun Spider

just a few of the top of my head.

[Xetelian]

They can do things roughly by volume but each weight class should have limits to its size.

20-35 tons should each individually have a size limit and within a second size limit of lights.

So a 20 ton mech no matter the volume would be smaller than a 25 ton mech.

This might be best done with a certain percentage, like 20 ton mechs are always 15% smaller than 25 ton mechs which are 15% smaller than 30 ton mechs and so on. The only thing that would be different is that you would want to increase the percentage based on the weight class so a 35 ton light mech is 25% smaller than a 40 ton medium mech and so on.



That way you wouldn't get skinny mechs in the heavy class as tall or taller than mechs in the assault class. Mediums like the Griffin and Shadowhawk would be as big as heavy mechs.




Either way, EVERYTHING should be smaller. The AS7 and the ANH should be smaller and everything all the way down to the JAV should shrink.



EDIT:

JackalBeast, on 20 March 2018 - 07:53 PM, said:

Hate to break it to ya, but pretty much every heavy is bigger than the Awesome.
Thanatos
Black Knight
Night Gyr
Nova Cat
Sun Spider

just a few of the top of my head.

Yes, you're not bringing me any news that I didn't already know. That is the problem. The AWS is too wide and therefore too short. The SNS is unique in that it is taller and about as wide as an AWS not counting the arms.

The size rebalance was terrible and made a lot of things bigger than they should be.

Edited by Xetelian, 20 March 2018 - 08:05 PM.

[Nightbird]

Total volume from eyeballing is less for the Sunspider. Issue is more that PGI takes volume from small components and puts them into big ones. Look a the legs and the arms, all of that skinniness went into the torsos... ouch

Edited by Nightbird, 20 March 2018 - 08:18 PM.

[TheMadTypist]

Part of the trouble is removable geometry, like those missile boxes, doesn't count for the overall volume when they determine size. They've said they don't intend for players to use those weapons which make the hitboxes bigger, so they design around the minimum profile.

The end result isn't terrible, but it's not all that great either. Sorta an inverse of the tanky, brawly roughneck.

[K O Z A K]

I think it's important to consider the targets the 2 mechs present in vertical and horizontal trade:

https://imgur.com/a/ke2Ww

[Xetelian]

Hazeclaw, on 20 March 2018 - 10:04 PM, said:

I think it's important to consider the targets the 2 mechs present in vertical and horizontal trade:

https://imgur.com/a/ke2Ww

Kinda imprecise considering the angles they're at and the arms on the AWS.

White Knights abound when you are critical about something PGI is flagrant with.

[Vellron2005]

Xetelian, on 20 March 2018 - 07:28 PM, said:

Thank god for consistency and volumetric scaling so 70 ton mechs and 80 ton mechs have vastly different sizes.

That looks about right to me. The Awesome is an 80 tonner that has arms. The Sun Spider is a 70 tonner that does not have arms, or it's arms are basically shoulders, so yeah.. 10 tons worth of lower arm actuators and hand actuators and arm-mounted armor sounds about right.

Plus, the Awesome's legs are about twice as thick as the Sun Spiders..

Edited by Vellron2005, 20 March 2018 - 11:58 PM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

the next Artist build the Sun spider very different to this and than the Sun spider is shrinking or taller ? looks the very different Artworks to all mechs ...Marauder ...from unseen to Project Phönix ...MWO other Artists ...all different styles , Proportions , sizes for Weapons, Arms,legs ,torsos
we have a Tread to the Volumetric Scaling ...the Awesome in Pic and Game its like the Sun Spider a 0 Tonner ..a Artist Idea with nothing real sized Basements like Engine sizes, Weapon or Ammunition sizes (never become 1000 Missles as Ammo in a Mech)

https://mwomercs.com...metric-scaling/

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 21 March 2018 - 03:09 AM.

[Athom83]

Xetelian, on 20 March 2018 - 07:28 PM, said:

Thank god for consistency and volumetric scaling so 70 ton mechs and 80 ton mechs have vastly different sizes.

Well... Endo and Ferro are supposed to make your mech less dense and larger per weight as a result. Plus, the Awesome has a lot of the weight in its chunky arms and legs.

[Sjorpha]

It's very clearly a bit smaller than the awesome so I'm not sure what the complaint is, 70 vs 80 seems pretty correct to me.

It's tall and skinny but that isn't the same as big, seems like a lot of people obsess over height when looking at scaling but width is actually a much more imortant factor for durability.

[The Basilisk]

FupDup, on 20 March 2018 - 07:37 PM, said:

T H E V O L U M E A D D S U P B R O

It's likely the arms that are the root cause of this. The tiny arms "require" PGI to inject all of that "unused" volume into the torso section of the mech, resulting in a squishy gundam. The seemingly skinny (but long) legs probably aren't helping with the volume quota.

Naa not the arms.
Its the weapons pods.
Strip one naked, everything, Weapons, omnipods, everything except maybe armor and engine.
That is the Mechvolume they used to scale.
Weapon pods and stuff get added later.

Stupid right ?

This is also the reason why the MadDog, Catapult, Timby and MkII are so smal.
Their rocket boxes count to the volume and therefor the whole mech seems smaler.

Edited by The Basilisk, 21 March 2018 - 03:58 AM.

[DaZur]

I've been carrying the banner for fluid displacement to measure the volume of mechs since way back in the day... Since mass is truly unknown, for the sake of argument and simple measurement, mass =/= volume.

https://www.quora.co...me-displacement

Simple explanation is you derive an objects volume based on the amount of fluid displaced once fully immersed. Once you affirm the volume of your baseline 100 ton mech (Atlas?) you can easily derive the recursive volumes of other class mechs from that baseline without all the fancy cubed math otherwise required

Topping that, it's more accurate because fluid displacement acknowledges the inherent nuanced shape of an object and not just averaging a cubed reference.

Edited by DaZur, 21 March 2018 - 05:10 AM.

[kapusta11]

Vellron2005, on 20 March 2018 - 11:58 PM, said:

That looks about right to me. The Awesome is an 80 tonner that has arms. The Sun Spider is a 70 tonner that does not have arms, or it's arms are basically shoulders, so yeah.. 10 tons worth of lower arm actuators and hand actuators and arm-mounted armor sounds about right.

Plus, the Awesome's legs are about twice as thick as the Sun Spiders..

So mechs without fat arms to shield STs should be huge af?

[Seranov]

I would be very appreciative if the Sun Spider got Mad Dog-level armor quirks for those big fat STs (I don't recall another mech I've had a side blown off as quickly while running it) but I don't feel like it's height is really the issue. Tall is good, in my experience, especially for a mech like this which is designed for ridge peeking.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

The Basilisk, on 21 March 2018 - 03:57 AM, said:

Naa not the arms.
Its the weapons pods.
Strip one naked, everything, Weapons, omnipods, everything except maybe armor and engine.
That is the Mechvolume they used to scale.
Weapon pods and stuff get added later.

Stupid right ?

This is also the reason why the MadDog, Catapult, Timby and MkII are so smal.
Their rocket boxes count to the volume and therefor the whole mech seems smaler.

yes by models from realistic Parts its correct ...here we have poor Fantasy objects ...what the size of a AC10 from different factories with different Calibers and Loading Mechanism ..the size ? more Size as a large Laser with no Laoding mechanism ...problem here no one Part has a realistic Counterpart ...te artist can a Ac10 make in a Size of a M249 or like a maingun from the Iowa class Battleship

[K O Z A K]

Xetelian, on 20 March 2018 - 11:40 PM, said:

Kinda imprecise considering the angles they're at and the arms on the AWS.

White Knights abound when you are critical about something PGI is flagrant with.

Your image. Although you're right the arms on the awesome skew it a bit from this angle, but go have a look in the mechlab/store sunspider has a much smaller frontal profile both vertically and horizontally than awesome in terms of what it needs to expose to fire it's weapons. I'd even say it has one of the best weapon profiles in the game, if only the side torsos weren't so large compared to CT.

I have no problem criticizing PGI when it's deserved, I just personally don't see how the overall size/geometry of the sunspider is an issue, maybe just the center torso hitbox needs to be a bit wider. It seems at this point they can do no right though. They release op mechs: "Boooo, power creep", they release balanced mechs "Boooo, my new robot not OP"

[Xetelian]

Hazeclaw, on 21 March 2018 - 09:31 AM, said:

Your image. Although you're right the arms on the awesome skew it a bit from this angle, but go have a look in the mechlab/store sunspider has a much smaller frontal profile both vertically and horizontally than awesome in terms of what it needs to expose to fire it's weapons. I'd even say it has one of the best weapon profiles in the game, if only the side torsos weren't so large compared to CT.

I have no problem criticizing PGI when it's deserved, I just personally don't see how the overall size/geometry of the sunspider is an issue, maybe just the center torso hitbox needs to be a bit wider. It seems at this point they can do no right though. They release op mechs: "Boooo, power creep", they release balanced mechs "Boooo, my new robot not OP"

This isn't about wanting it to be OP.

This is about how bad the 'volumetric' scaling is.

Skinny legs? = Needs to be as tall as mech a whole weight class higher
Tiny arms? = Needs to be as wide as a barn


Not to mention the hitboxes of mechs are their own roulette wheel of balance that can make or break a mech.


I'm not saying the SNS is DOA. Again, I'm not asking for it to be the best mech in the game. I just want my heavies to be smaller than my assaults to a degree that makes sense to me.





The AWS should have been as narrow as the original Zeus model within its current design. The Zeus should have never been resized.

The rent is TOO DAMN HIGH!

The mechs are too damn BIG!

[Dogstar]