99 replies to this topic

[Dee Eight]

Just did a v-forge defence invasion, only used my two Annihilators I brought...a 2A with sextuple LB2s and a 2A(S) with sextuple LB5s. Both carried a single AMS w/1 ton of ammo. 1318 dmg, 4 kills, 4 kmdd (but not on the 4 things i killed), 314 missiles destroyed. Dropped the 2A first got 1 kill and 629 dmg, did the rest with the 1A(S) which was still alive at the end and had all of 8 rounds of LB ammo left. I pushed the 2A out the gate after we wiped the first clan wave 12 to 1, but kept the 2A(S) inside after we wiped the second wave because with only a 255LFE...its not particularly fast. But it is good for flattening lights trying to gen rush. It accounted for a timberwolf who's face I made disappear and cheetah who didn't need those legs from the 2nd wave and a lynx from the 3rd who didn't need any of his torso. Their 4th wave never got to our gates.

Edited by Dee Eight, 26 March 2018 - 09:51 AM.

[Krivvan]

Dee Eight, on 26 March 2018 - 08:59 AM, said:

Now that game is pretty telling since people keep making the argument "well none of the top comp players or streamers carry AMS" to justify not doing it themselves well... here we had 3 from Clanwacht Clan Geisterbaer who are currently the 55th rank loyalist unit in the FP leaderboard with only 17 members. The players in question...the guy in the Javelin, 89% overall on jarl's, and 5.33 WLR and 2.58KDR from 38 matches in FP so far this current season. The guy in the crab 84% overall on jarl's, and 4.19 WLR/1.76 KDR over 190 FP matches. And the guy in the other Bushwacker is 86% on jarls and 2.98WLR/2.14KDR over 183 matches in FP. Now that would seem to be to be pretty good results by people carrying AMS instead of more heat sinks or ammo.

At the risk of sounding really elitist and egotistical, none of those players would generally be considered a top comp player, least of all that FP unit. The top 5 loyalist units might count, but that's pushing it already. Especially since comp units tend to avoid FP. If you're refuting the statement of "well none of the top comp players or streamers carry AMS" then you'd have to actually look at top comp matches and streamers. Like Proton.

Not to mention that players aren't bringing streaks into scouting because they're effective, but because it's the easiest way to pad the damage to guarantee clearing the event.

You are correct however, that for circumstances where many people are bringing streaks, such as for this FP event, an AMS would be a worthwhile investment. For example, the 4xAMS Piranha actually has worth in 1v1 against a Streak Medium solely because its AMS allows it to survive 1-2 extra Streak volleys which is enough time to DPS down a leg and avoid the rest of the shots.

However, streaks themselves being commonplace is usually a pretty rare scenario. But I'm not going to argue with someone that says "streaks are so common for this scouting event that I'm going to take an AMS."

Edited by Krivvan, 26 March 2018 - 10:11 AM.

[Bongo TauKat]

The two AMS on my WLF have saved my arse from many an ATM salvo. Worth it's weight on a lot of builds.

[roekenny]

NeoCodex, on 26 March 2018 - 06:18 AM, said:

But also to be honest, I can count maybe 1 or 2 times in my MWO career where ams actually ran out of ammo (since the 2.000 rounds buff).

Funny I've run out of ammo on two occasions with 10000 rounds of ams with this event and more than a dozen times used 8000+.

When an events is on or are playing eu prime time it's worth the slots and tonnage but if play outside that bracket you will find it less useful. It's like both sides are saying it's situational and at times not worth it. Luckily however we know when and what situations you are statistically more likely to need them and fit accordingly.

Edited by roekenny, 26 March 2018 - 10:56 AM.

[Kubernetes]

You can evade missiles, find cover, break lock, and that's the best strat in solo play, but there's something to be said for a team equipping AMS in faction play. Being able to stand out in the open, burning down missile boats while immune to their fire... that's some good stuff.

[Colonel Presumptuous]

As someone that likes to use ATM's alot.. even a single AMS will piss in my cereal enough ill start growling at the Screen.

[Variant1]

It depends. I cant deny that ams is useful, it softens up blows against missiles. But it comes down to players preference, do they want extra defence against missiles or use that extra tonnage for weapons/armor etc? In certain situations it can be very handy such as an enemy team having alot of lrms, but it can also be ineffective if the enemy team has no missiles. Since many mechs have missiles or variants with them then it can generaly be worth it. But in the end it comes down to player choice and what they are aiming for: support, firepower or defence etc.

[Dee Eight]

Ok so new mode to the event is IS vs IS...just won a match, 1800+ damage, 5 KMDD, 6 killing blows, 15 components, and 736 missiles destroyed total with only having AMS on three mechs (and the last one, my bushwacker I use for scouting emptied its full ton of ammo). So even if that's just LRMs... I provided the shielding of 23 tons of standard armor to myself and my team. I started with a non-AMS equiiped Ilya Cataphract with triple LB10s, then went to a Thanatos with ECM, 4 medium lasers and dual streak-6s and AMS, a roughneck with LB10, twin MGs, small laser and triple streak-2s and AMS, and the quad-mg, triple streak-2, large laser, AMS bushwacker. Attack Siege mode and we won with a omega kill 40 to 44 on mechs.

[Yosharian]

Dee Eight, on 26 March 2018 - 08:59 AM, said:

The "meta" is scouting is predominately short range missiles or streaks and while AMS has less time to deal with them (since they move faster than LRMs) they can still exceed their tonnage in protection value. I do all my scouting matches in a either a streak/mg bushwacker or a streak/mpl huntsman and both carry AMS. Even just facing off alone against a griffin 2N with quad SRM6+artemis yesterday on one match... I stopped 26 of his missiles... that's 52 damage... or... put another way... 1.33 tons of the FF armor on my huntsman saved which let me hang in the fight longer. I eventually got the better of him because like many IS mediums... he packed in a lot of weapon and not much heat sinkage. Kintaro players seem to be the worst this event with stuffing in multiple streak 6s which then quickly overheat themselves.

I'm about to drop a ten match string of scouting... let's see what happens...

BSW-X1(S), 300XL, BAP, Endo, AMS, LL, 4xMG, 3xSSRM2, 368 armor, 15DHS, double strikes, double cool, 30 nodes firepower, 21 survival, 11 op, 19 sensors (I chased all the radar dep nodes), 10 aux. All the survival nodes and quirks add up to 127 pts of bonus armor.

So...matchup has four bushies, mine, a pair of P1s and another X1. We're on protection duty. The pair of P1s were from a unit called MXM' whoever that is. So... two huntsman with just SSRM6s, a cheetah with MGs mainly and a UAC/10 & 6 small laser crow. My AMS only destroyed 8 missiles in a close range furball river city, Fox side of the citadel in the water with the rocks and bridge. Team lost and I had the only kill and also the only AMS.

Second matchup... got my bushy, an X2 bushy, an Assassin hero, and a wolverine 7D on terra therma protection duty. two crows and two huntsman, mix of srms, ssrms, lasers and I think I saw an LB20 on one crow. One sec I'll review the shadow play... 53 missiles destroyed using 763 AMS rounds. Another tight furball next to one of the lava flows. Team won 4 to 2 and I had 3 of the kills.

Third matchup... me, another X1, Kintaro 18 and Griffin 2N on polar protection duty vs two huntsman heros, a cheetah and an arc wolf. One huntsman was 5 streak 6s, a streak 4 and a tag and I killed him first. Second huntman was four streak 6s, 2 streak 2s, 2 mPL and I killed him second. The ArcWolf had ECM, 2 ERML and 2 ATM-9s and died third. The cheetah was 4 ERML and I killed him as well after her turned back to engage us. 110 missiles were destroyed by my AMS (and only I had one of the four of us) for 824 rounds expended with more open terrain (where my AMS wasn't hitting terrain instead of missiles) and it was a perfect 4 to 0 game. Now since the whole match occurred across 500m or less of the map...that meant every missile was worth at least 2 pts of damage prevent (since the ATMs were in the 3 or 2 pt range bands), so that's 220 damage prevented. I got good shadowplay results of the terra and polar if its desired I youtube 'em. Now I deliberately engaged the missile mechs first...if I'd started with the cheetah my AMS likely would have intercepted more missiles, because every one of them I killed there were less missiles being launched for it to intercept.

Fourth match... me, bush P1, Griffin 2N, Griffin 5M(L), frozen city protection vs 3 streak arctic wolves... a prime with quad Streak 6s, a pair of 1s that were boating Streak-2s, and a piranha 3 loaded mostly with micro lasers. I killed the piranha myself and one AW killed another via missplaced strike. two of my team each claimed another wolf as a kill. 2:43 battle time near the dropship. 98 missiles destroyed on 927 AMS rounds expended. There was a lot of missplaced strikes...one of my team hit the top ridge of the back map at the start of the fight...quite the thing to watch on the replay. Again I had the only AMS.

Fifth match... forest protection...me, CN9-AH(L), TBT-7M with dual MRM40s (and not enough ammo apparently), KTO-18 vs SCR-A with 5xSRM6, SCR-D with 5xSRM6 & 1 ERLL, HMN-Prime with 6xSSRM6, and i didn't see the contents of the last crow before he went boom.The whole fight basically happened at G6 in a 200 meter area between the ridge and all those large shipping containers/crates. Came down to the all srm crow and the trebuchet and both ran out of ammo. 714 AMS rounds expended to stop 76 missiles and I got one of the 3 kills (the TBT got a pair). Enemy won since of course the crow just needed to get to the dropship.


Next five are using my double AMS bushwacker S2, if 1 AMS is good...then 2 must be better right ? 280XL, Endo, 352 armor, BAP, 2xAMS, 4xSSRM2, 1xLB5, 2xSL.42 FP, 15 Survival, 9 Op, 15 Sensor and 10 Aux nodes.

Sixth match...myself, pair of GRF-2Ns and a CDA-X5 on terra therma collection versus ACW-1 with 5xSRM4+artemis, SCR-Prime(C) trial build, HBK2C with UAC/20 and 3xHMG and i didn't see what the 4th had before it was killed at virtually the same moment I was but it was LRMs or ATMs that had come out of it. I was the only casualty but still 826 AMS rounds stopped 125 missiles before dying. Again the pattern continues of I'm the only one with AMS installed.

Seventh... Rubellite protech with CN9-A, GRF-2N, GRF-5M(L) versus HBK-2C-A with 2xHLL,4xMPL , HBK-2C-B w/2xERML & 4xSSRM6, HMN-PA w/4xSSRM6, 2xSSRM2 and 2xERML, NVA-Prime w/12xERSL. Stopped 49 missiles with 310 rounds of AMS and got 2 out of our 4 kills in a 4 to 0 match. Two of the enemy didn't make 100 match score (the HMN and the Heavy Laser HBK). The centurion also carried an AMS.

Eigth...HBK-4SP, ASN-101, BSW-X2 and myself doing a frozen city gathering versus WELL...four not coward crows apparently...as the other thee members of my team ran from the initial encounter leaving myself alone against the 4 crows. The HBK was dual MRM30s and I didn't see what the other two head before they died. I got the first of two kills. Two crows were identical prime specials with Triple SRM6+Artemis and an LB20, 1 was a crow-D with 4xSRM6+Art and 6xSPL, and I didn't see the 4th's loadout. 185 rounds of AMS stopped 15 SRMs and I died first. No other AMS present.

Ninth... 3 guys from CWCG...a JVN-10P, CRB-27, BSW-S2 and my S2 again and the crab had an AMS and the S2 had a double AMS like me gathering on Crimson versus 4 soon to be dead clan mechs. I used 220 AMS to stop 26 missiles but I don't know what the other two claimed but i had hardly any damage. Fighting happened near the mid tunnel exit and the ramp. A SHC-A with 3xSRM6 and 2xMPL who got died first and then a nova-prime with 12xERML died second, A Crow-B with 4xSSRM6+Art & 5xERSL who died 3rd to me, and the fourth was a HMN-P w/4xSRM6 and a UAC/5. At the end I was at 86% the other bushwacker 88% and both the crab and javelin were at 72%. The whole battle was over in 1:38 and we forced combat at the pickup point by claiming a quick 12 intel points (smoke was in the valley outside the mid tunnel gate).I had 2 kmdd, 5 components and top damage at 417 of the four of us. Everyone got a kill and 3 assists.

Now that game is pretty telling since people keep making the argument "well none of the top comp players or streamers carry AMS" to justify not doing it themselves well... here we had 3 from Clanwacht Clan Geisterbaer who are currently the 55th rank loyalist unit in the FP leaderboard with only 17 members. The players in question...the guy in the Javelin, 89% overall on jarl's, and 5.33 WLR and 2.58KDR from 38 matches in FP so far this current season. The guy in the crab 84% overall on jarl's, and 4.19 WLR/1.76 KDR over 190 FP matches. And the guy in the other Bushwacker is 86% on jarls and 2.98WLR/2.14KDR over 183 matches in FP. Now that would seem to be to be pretty good results by people carrying AMS instead of more heat sinks or ammo.

Anyway back to my testing...tenth match..three bushwackers, mine, an P1 and a HR along with a SHD-GD on polar protection versus a crow, ice ferret, and two hbk2c's and they were all ballistic/energy so my AMS didn't fire at all. So 1 match in 10 it didn't get used. All ten matches resulted in 100+ match scores so 20 more loot bags.

You're not seriously just measuring 'missiles shot down' and assuming all those missiles would hit something important, or hit at all... right?

[NeoCodex]

roekenny, on 26 March 2018 - 10:55 AM, said:

Funny I've run out of ammo on two occasions with 10000 rounds of ams with this event and more than a dozen times used 8000+.

When an events is on or are playing eu prime time it's worth the slots and tonnage but if play outside that bracket you will find it less useful. It's like both sides are saying it's situational and at times not worth it. Luckily however we know when and what situations you are statistically more likely to need them and fit accordingly.

Actually yes, I just ran out of AMS ammo yesterday when I didn't turn it off while I was in cover (maybe it was at least shielding some teammate, I don't know what they were lurming at) just to test how long it would last and 2000 rounds got drained pretty fast. I might have overstated that I almost never run out, but it is still pretty rare to get a game like that.

And if we're discussing pro players.. please let's not bring that into here, it is completely different and we all know that. I think the questions like this thread here should be understood and discussed from an average Joe's quick match solo drop point of view. For which my personal opinion is still yes, it absolutely is, now more than ever before (new tech, engine decoupling and skill tree), unless you're a fast light or something like that.

Edited by NeoCodex, 27 March 2018 - 12:22 AM.

[El Bandito]

Variant1, on 26 March 2018 - 05:10 PM, said:

It depends. I cant deny that ams is useful, it softens up blows against missiles. But it comes down to players preference, do they want extra defence against missiles or use that extra tonnage for weapons/armor etc?

You do realize that you can carry both max armor and AMS right? AMS acts like potential extra armor in this case.

Yosharian, on 26 March 2018 - 10:01 PM, said:

You're not seriously just measuring 'missiles shot down' and assuming all those missiles would hit something important, or hit at all... right?

I'd say no, not all the missiles that were shot down would have hit any targets, but AMS generally pays for itself multiple times in terms of tons of armor saved vs. tons invested. Also, as a career lurmer, I can safely say that enough AMS demoralize lurmers and force them to look for different targets, thus noticeably lowering their DPM.

I recall raining down hundreds of ATMs from the Vitric Forge platform down to the slow pushing Annihilators/Cyclopses in one match, within my 3 damage per missile range. But many of those Annis and Cyclopses had AMS each and when my ATM mech died I did only 500 damage total. I could have almost tripled that damage if not for AMS.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 March 2018 - 04:51 AM.

[Jman5]

El Bandito, on 27 March 2018 - 04:45 AM, said:

Also, as a career lurmer, I can safely say that enough AMS demoralize lurmers and force them to look for different targets, thus noticeably lowering their DPM.

I recall raining down hundreds of ATMs from the Vitric Forge platform down to the slow pushing Annihilators/Cyclopses in one match, within my 3 damage per missile range. But many of those Annis and Cyclopses had AMS each and when my ATM mech died I did only 500 damage total. I could have almost tripled that damage if not for AMS.

100% this. These are the sorts of advantages that you don't really pick up on unless you have spent a lot of time on the other side of AMS. Sure if you have enough missiles you can power through an AMS, but all that time you're doing reduced damage. If given the choice of mechs to shoot, the missile boat will favor shooting the guy that isn't protected by any nearby AMS.

When I played nothing but LRMs in the past, I used to laugh at the accepted wisdom that AMS was a waste because it made my life so much easier. Since the skill tree has arrived, AMS has become ridiculously more powerful. Especially since few people bother with radar deprivation and there are sooooo many UAVs being used these days.

[Athom83]

El Bandito, on 27 March 2018 - 04:45 AM, said:

You do realize that you can carry both max armor and AMS right? AMS acts like potential extra armor in this case.

I'd say no, not all the missiles that were shot down would have hit any targets, but AMS generally pays for itself multiple times in terms of tons of armor saved vs. tons invested. Also, as a career lurmer, I can safely say that enough AMS demoralize lurmers and force them to look for different targets, thus noticeably lowering their DPM.

I recall raining down hundreds of ATMs from the Vitric Forge platform down to the slow pushing Annihilators/Cyclopses in one match, within my 3 damage per missile range. But many of those Annis and Cyclopses had AMS each and when my ATM mech died I did only 500 damage total. I could have almost tripled that damage if not for AMS.

Shh... you're giving away our AMS boating Assault push secrets. Also, imagine if AMS ammo was effected by Mag Cap nodes like they should be.

Edited by Athom83, 27 March 2018 - 08:46 AM.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

So even if that's just LRMs... I provided the shielding of 23 tons of standard armor to myself and my team.

Assuming all the missiles were going to hit, anyway. Given a roughly 35% hit rate of unblasted missiles, your AMS, in a 48v48 game chewed up about 85 points of damage that would have hit otherwise. Each. Charitably speaking.

Now, if LRMs had a 100% hit rate and you'd stopped that many missiles, they'd be god-tier. But they don't.

[Athom83]

Brain Cancer, on 27 March 2018 - 12:07 PM, said:

Assuming all the missiles were going to hit, anyway. Given a roughly 35% hit rate of unblasted missiles, your AMS, in a 48v48 game chewed up about 85 points of damage that would have hit otherwise. Each. Charitably speaking.

Now, if LRMs had a 100% hit rate and you'd stopped that many missiles, they'd be god-tier. But they don't.

But then you also have to figure that not all of the 65% of missiles were hit were shot at or destroyed by AMS, and that the 35% hit rate is including missiles that were shot down by AMS as misses.

[Brain Cancer]

Again, that's being charitable. I regularly watch AMS hit salvos that don't touch a single unit because they break locks or move to cover, either of which renders the LRM salvo 100% useless for damage but an AMS won't care, as it will shoot anything that flies by regardless. You can at least assume that missiles on a line to hit someone will have a chance to pass through an AMS bubble, at least.

[Johnny Z]

AMS is a must have. Got it on all my mechs basically. Even my Locust for some protection against streaks. Anything big and slow really has to have AMS. Its like 10 tons of extra armor.

Edited by Johnny Z, 27 March 2018 - 04:52 PM.

[Vanguard319]

Abisha, on 24 March 2018 - 03:28 AM, said:

AMS is worth it's tonnage on assaults especially the laser version.
Heavy might be worth the tonnage (if you have fast heavy no, slow heavy yes)
Medium/light Not worth it.

Kit Fox with triple AMS is pretty good, since you're probably going to stay near heavier team mates anyway.

[Dee Eight]

I find the triple AMS Nova works better. The AMS units being spread slightly apart (RT,LT,CT)when they fire seems to improve the hit rate (better shot dispersion maybe where they're not all hitting the same missile in the stream together) compared to the tight group on one arm of the kitfox.

[roekenny]

The fox and the nova have different roles the nova the ams just padding as you lose nothing and are great poptarts and can operate alone to a degree. The kitfox you really need to sick close to your assaults as you are a perfect size to ridge peek and maintain a low profile and get pot shots while buddies take fire and providing anti missile/ light + ecm support.