73 replies to this topic

[Zookeeper Dan]

It's not that high ground isn't good, it's that it will almost always be beaten by mobility. One team takes the high ground and stays there, the other team stays mobile and exploits sitting targets.

I've been in way too many games where my team goes to a hill and stops just at the top of the peak or just behind. If someone gets bold and pokes they are the target of the entire enemy team so everyone just stands around in place. Then the other team flanks and wipes out everyone. Not the hill's fault.

[HammerMaster]

High ground is still better BUT. I see your point. PGI in their infinte wisdom decide that larger machines will be gimped vs lights and curtail their ability to torso down. EVEN THOUGH its accepted in lore that a mech can do things like kneel, sit, climb (sort of), Fistfight. Grab things.ETC.

Edited by HammerMaster, 25 March 2018 - 03:27 PM.

[Krivvan]

HammerMaster, on 25 March 2018 - 03:27 PM, said:

High ground is still better BUT. I see your point. PGI in their infinte wisdom decide that larger machines will be gimped vs lights and curtail their ability to torso down. EVEN THOUGH its accepted in lore that a mech can do things like kneel, sit, climb (sort of), Fistfight. Grab things.ETC.

Game design > Lore

You don't want a game where 3/4 of the players playing are forced into chassis that are outright inferior in every way compared to the 1/4 playing the heaviest mechs in the game.

[Asym]

Bombast, on 25 March 2018 - 07:03 AM, said:

Yes. Mechs slide down terrain too steep to stand on.

I can't resist !!! Sorry: Show me a video...... I've never seen a mech slide or have un-even feet.....

Hey Bombast, you don't have to, really, I believe you; but, after a year of explaining what I've seen, the standard response is "you're a potato and I don't believe you: show me" or, "get GuD: experienced pilots don't....")

[Krivvan]

Asym, on 25 March 2018 - 07:34 PM, said:

I can't resist !!! Sorry: Show me a video...... I've never seen a mech slide or have un-even feet.....

You don't need a video to see mechs slide, you just need to load up testing grounds and attempt to walk up a hill too steep to walk up with sufficient momentum. It's not a rare occurrence.

Edited by Krivvan, 25 March 2018 - 08:01 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Samial, on 24 March 2018 - 06:34 PM, said:

The issue isn't high or low ground..

Its that mech agility is garbage and a lot cannot look up or down very well arms cannot go up or down which means many mechs are screwed on high or low ground as they cannot hit anything..

Try looking up or down in a crab or king crab, or try looking down in a mauler for example

Ah... It is.

If you are already near the highground it is faster to go DOWN and it is to go UP. To circle around / navigate and head upwards will always take longer, Assualts having the worst time. Remember this.

High ground is almost always better. Even if you can't shoot, you can move to the left or right easily while going down if needed.

[YueFei]

Asym, on 25 March 2018 - 07:34 PM, said:

I can't resist !!! Sorry: Show me a video...... I've never seen a mech slide or have un-even feet.....

Hey Bombast, you don't have to, really, I believe you; but, after a year of explaining what I've seen, the standard response is "you're a potato and I don't believe you: show me" or, "get GuD: experienced pilots don't....")

Dude.... how can you have played this game for thousands of matches and not once even tried to scale a hill too steep and slid back down? You ought to have experienced it first hand already.

Like... that's kind've a horrifying lack of curiosity and lack of experimentation.

I always get this vibe from your posts that you don't like the game's mechanics, and that you're quite disappointed in it, but have you ever stopped to wonder if maybe you find the game shallow only because you haven't properly plumbed its depths yet?

[Thorqemada]

Bombast, on 25 March 2018 - 05:16 AM, said:

This is wrong.

While it's true some mechs have issues firing downward, the high ground it still where they should go. They just shouldn't stay there. One of the biggest advantage of going high is that it's a superior position to attack out of.

And of course, the basic principle of gravity applies - It's easier to take the high ground early, find out it was the wrong move, and get down than it is to go low, find out that was the wrong move, and then try to fight your way up later.

That is called mobility....

[barnmaddo]

The center of the map in HPG Manifold does kinda suck. The enemies on the low ground have lots of cover, and can spread out attacking you from lots of different positions. The ceiling makes it hard to stand back and spam LRM's, and the hill is steep enough it's easy for enemies to sneak up to you. Also when you peep over the edge, you expose the top of your mech first, not necessarily the cockpit, so they see you first. Also depending on your mech you can be at a disadvantage trying to shoot downhill. Like if you have low mounted weapons on the arms.

But that's mostly just HPG Manifold. Most of the maps have better cover for those on the high ground.

[Vellron2005]

razenWing, on 24 March 2018 - 04:58 PM, said:

This is another aspect that Mechwarrior is unique amongst any other games ever in existence...

This is the only game that high ground absolutely sucks. Yes, the advantage still exists if you are on a hill and shoot 200-300 meters out, but on maps like Caustic Valley. If you take the Caldera, forget the heat, just the fact that you can't shoot down around you put you at a HUGE disadvantage. In every other games, that top of the hill should be a huge advantage going down the hill...

You get velocity, momentum behind you, other guys have to look up to shoot you...

It should be a roll by any stretch of the imagination.

But only in MWO, where you can't shoot down. So stuck on the hill? You not only NOT get additional speed from going down a hill (as opposed to mw4, which gives you like 10% or 20% depends on steepness?), but you have to race PAST the opponent so that you have the low ground to be able to shoot up at them.

Which is ridiculous.

There's really an easy fix to this. IK. Because if we can "normalize" the plain so that looking down would be like looking straight, that problem is solved immediately. Imagine you being 90 degree on the side of the hill looking down, yes your friends need to hold your back or you fall down the hill, but IK is supposed to fix the balance issue.

Also, more speed boost/reduction going up and down a hill would help...

Sadly, in this game, being high up only means my LRMs will have an easier time hitting you, and snipers will also hit you more easily..

Those that rush the high ground on maps like HPG usually die quickly sniped from the sides, even with protection from LRMs..

As a LRM boat, I personally prefer a nice deep hole somewhere, away from direct fire, in deep cover, so it's just LRMs flying out and hitting most anything..

[Bombast]

barnmaddo, on 25 March 2018 - 11:16 PM, said:

The center of the map in HPG Manifold does kinda suck. The enemies on the low ground have lots of cover, and can spread out attacking you from lots of different positions. The ceiling makes it hard to stand back and spam LRM's, and the hill is steep enough it's easy for enemies to sneak up to you. Also when you peep over the edge, you expose the top of your mech first, not necessarily the cockpit, so they see you first. Also depending on your mech you can be at a disadvantage trying to shoot downhill. Like if you have low mounted weapons on the arms.

But that's mostly just HPG Manifold. Most of the maps have better cover for those on the high ground.

The top of HPG manifold is amazing, you're just not supposed to stand there the entire time. You take top, see what the enemy is doing, and then...

1. If they try to spread out, the top can attack and overwhelm any side they desire at a whim, and the enemy will never be able to re-enforce in time to save anyone

2. If they try and NASCAR around, the top can easily push down and split the slow mechs from the fast ones and gobble the slow guys up

3. If they just try to push one side, you have better positions than they do, and you can just outfight them and outflank them, since it's easier to get down than up

4. If they try to run out of the center area you just wait for them to stop trying to run away, then slam them since you're in position while they're trying to get into position

5. If they go basement, well, congratulations, you now have the entire map to do whatever the hell you want

6. If a ton of them are sniping from a distance, that means they are spread. See #1

[Asym]

YueFei, on 25 March 2018 - 09:59 PM, said:

Dude.... how can you have played this game for thousands of matches and not once even tried to scale a hill too steep and slid back down? You ought to have experienced it first hand already.

Like... that's kind've a horrifying lack of curiosity and lack of experimentation.

I always get this vibe from your posts that you don't like the game's mechanics, and that you're quite disappointed in it, but have you ever stopped to wonder if maybe you find the game shallow only because you haven't properly plumbed its depths yet?

Ah, you are close but, no.........

Two things: reality and knowing what I can or can not do....after all, it's a game ! And, a very silly one at that, that some of you take way too seriously.....

Let's see? Going up grades that you can't and failing? Nope. That is what jump jets are for. Why try?
Let's see? Same question: because you know where on those maps you can ascend because the game map developer knew they'd have to put a "path up" say, in canyon or rubble at some point....so players didn't complain???

Plumbed it depths? Seriously?? It's a 2D F2P FPS soon to be an arcade arena 1x1/2x2 gladiatorial stomp: kinda of like Doom with robots and semi-intelligent AI's all running around like their pants are on-fire..... think fun.....

[Seranov]

Asym, on 26 March 2018 - 04:16 AM, said:

Ah, you are close but, no.........

Two things: reality and knowing what I can or can not do....after all, it's a game ! And, a very silly one at that, that some of you take way too seriously.....

Let's see? Going up grades that you can't and failing? Nope. That is what jump jets are for. Why try?
Let's see? Same question: because you know where on those maps you can ascend because the game map developer knew they'd have to put a "path up" say, in canyon or rubble at some point....so players didn't complain???

Plumbed it depths? Seriously?? It's a 2D F2P FPS soon to be an arcade arena 1x1/2x2 gladiatorial stomp: kinda of like Doom with robots and semi-intelligent AI's all running around like their pants are on-fire..... think fun.....

I don't even need to say anything, you make yourself look more and more inept with every single one of these posts. The old "It's just a game!" excuse does not excuse you from looking silly when you completely don't even understand the things you're doing wrong, or what the game's actual issues are.

[mogs01gt]

Alexander of Macedon, on 24 March 2018 - 06:30 PM, said:

For the same reason that putting a tank or stationary gun on top of a steep hill is disadvantageous. If you can't depress your weapons to fire at enemies at the base of the high ground you're obviously going to be in trouble. This is one of the trade-offs of using torso-mounted weapons: they traverse slower and have a more limited range of movement.

If you're in a Blackjack, Rifleman, Jagermech, &c., you love hills, because you have high-mounted gun arms with a lot of vertical traverse and can effectively fight hull-down from many different angles, with the limit usually being based on the visual obstructions at the bottom of the cockpit.

This! Most mechs are unable to use the advantage that high ground provide. Then you run into the issue where your team starts to NASCAR and give up the high ground....

[Krivvan]

Bombast, on 26 March 2018 - 03:25 AM, said:

The top of HPG manifold is amazing, you're just not supposed to stand there the entire time. You take top, see what the enemy is doing, and then...

The problems of HPG centre high ground tend to crop up when a team just sorta takes the top and never does anything with it, inevitably leading to a couple players trying to poke off it alone and being destroyed, and others taking hits and backing right off the centre having accomplished nothing with it.

Asym, on 26 March 2018 - 04:16 AM, said:

Let's see? Going up grades that you can't and failing? Nope. That is what jump jets are for. Why try?

Because if you have enough momentum then you can actually go up inclines that you cannot normally walk up. A Commando, Piranha, and Locust, for example, can make it up certain steep slopes on Canyon Network if they gain enough speed beforehand and approach with the right angle. If you experiment even more, you find slopes that certain Light mechs can handle, Like the Commando or Piranha, and other Light mechs can't, like the Wolfhound.

I mean this is all even ignoring all the depths of terrain usage involving hardpoint mount locations, accel/deccel and twist profiles, jump jet techniques (drift turns, kite jumps, knee bumps, backsteps, etc.), playing with and against the pitch and yaw profiles of specific mechs (simple example being how to maintain a certain pitch to avoid shots from bigger mechs), and etc. The lack of depth you perceive is because you never bothered to find any depth, and instead just assumed things.

There are even mechanics that almost no one has gotten good at yet because they don't pop up except in very specific circumstances. Such as in Light 1v1s, the art of dodging shots using nothing but accel/deccel jukes and turns while maintaining consistent aim was never developed by many players because there was no use for it outside of using a MG Light in a 1v1. It remained basically undeveloped until the rise of the Spider-5K a couple years ago.

Edited by Krivvan, 26 March 2018 - 09:50 AM.

[Asym]

Seranov, on 26 March 2018 - 04:27 AM, said:

I don't even need to say anything, you make yourself look more and more inept with every single one of these posts. The old "It's just a game!" excuse does not excuse you from looking silly when you completely don't even understand the things you're doing wrong, or what the game's actual issues are.

That may be so.......alas, it really doesn't matter all that much because it is a "silly game"... Yes, I play for just fun now a days. Everybody I played on teams with are long gone. I stay for nostalgia and research data. We are all more or less than what we write, eh?! Maybe, we'll cross paths some day in QP or Scouting.... Be nice to see good players play !

Good luck Seranov and I wish you well !!

[Marquis De Lafayette]

The only problem with the high ground in HPG is “stupid/uninformed play”. People who try to poke over the edge 1 v. 4. If your team pokes together or just shows a wee bit of patience (a hard thing to develop in QP) it’s a great place to be. In FW double so, as reinforcements can’t get out of spawn without exposing themselves to your teams firing line.

[Krivvan]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 26 March 2018 - 10:01 AM, said:

The only problem with the high ground in HPG is “stupid/uninformed play”. People who try to poke over the edge 1 v. 4. If your team pokes together or just shows a wee bit of patience (a hard thing to develop in QP) it’s a great place to be. In FW double so, as reinforcements can’t get out of spawn without exposing themselves to your teams firing line.

Not just stupid play, but complete inability to trust your team, and their inability to trust you. Even when everyone is thinking "ok 8 of us are on top here and we need to poke at once" they're also thinking "but if I poke first then none of these other idiots are going to poke with me."

[Bongo TauKat]

Kubernetes, on 24 March 2018 - 07:17 PM, said:

High ground is a bit complicated in MWO because enemies can absorb damage and get in close. And once the enemies get in close you actually don't want the high ground-- you want to park yourself on the reverse slope, at the lip of the top. This allows you to shoot exposed enemies on top while you hill-peak. You can see this in action on both heights on Grim Plexus. The team that camps on one of the tabletops becomes toast once the enemy gets on the slope.

Agreed on Grim. Too many times have I seen teams take one of the tops and then sit there. It usually ends in either a flank or a pincer move.

[YueFei]

Asym, on 26 March 2018 - 04:16 AM, said:

Ah, you are close but, no.........

Two things: reality and knowing what I can or can not do....after all, it's a game ! And, a very silly one at that, that some of you take way too seriously.....

Let's see? Going up grades that you can't and failing? Nope. That is what jump jets are for. Why try?
Let's see? Same question: because you know where on those maps you can ascend because the game map developer knew they'd have to put a "path up" say, in canyon or rubble at some point....so players didn't complain???

Plumbed it depths? Seriously?? It's a 2D F2P FPS soon to be an arcade arena 1x1/2x2 gladiatorial stomp: kinda of like Doom with robots and semi-intelligent AI's all running around like their pants are on-fire..... think fun.....

Sounds like a whole lot of hot air you're spewing out as excuses for why you didn't actually explore this game.

Whether the game is worth exploring or not is a matter of opinion, but it is a matter of record (thanks to the fact you posted your ignorance for all to see) that you didn't bother to do even the most cursory of experimentation in the game. Yet you decry the game as shallow.

It's like going to a buffet, trying only one dish, and then saying that the buffet offers no variety. Others are safely going to just ignore your opinion.